Tom as you look into the future what's next in detector technology?

Just curious.What do you see as the next generation in detector technology?

Hummm, This is a good questions for tom..I'm just guessing that the DEEP PI technology with Discrim will be front and center...Seems like Fisher/Dave johnson has done wonders with the VLF technology..

The biggest thing on most Mfr's plates...... is:
#1. Better handling of bad/mineralized dirt w/proper ID capabilities.
#2. Better electronic stability..... allowing the unit to be driven deeper into the 'noise' baseline; subsequently enhancing detection of smaller targets and increasing depth abilities.
#3. ((This should be #1)); Driving Mfr costs down so as to increase profits..... but also increasing reliability...... so as to reduce warranty issues.

I still did not answer your question. SO:
MOST other Mfr's are going to play "catch-up" to Dave & John's F-75/T-2 extremely rapid microprocessor clock speed that is coupled with a elliptical DD coil. ((( If other Mfr's are estute to these critical attributes ))).

And....... If I know Dave & John....... I'm certain they are working on a "Explorer Killer"; both in the departments of bad minerals and greater depth. Dave has probably been after this for over a year. They are NOT sleeping!

This STILL did not answer your question. SO:
We'll probably refuse to make that proverbial paradigm shift away from VLF electromagnetic energy/technology...... even though we live in a iron-core Earth full of electromagnetic properties...... somewhat making our current metal detector-platform methodology: counterproductive.

PI COULD be the 'wave' of the future (bad pun).... and it will continue to evolve --evolutionary-- (not revolutionary...unfortunately)... BUT requires massive amounts of R&D time AND funds. It'll go slow. Many will 'dabble'. MAYBE, just MAYBE someone will REVOLUTIONIZE! The key players are NOT quitters.... Nor is there such thing as 'defeat' ..... rather, it's viewed upon as; "tuition" (learning-curve).

Frankly; I'd like iron to look like undetectable 'glass' to a detector! It's our worst signature nightmare. Ditch the 'M'.

Tom

Thanks Tom.

Looks like some manufacturers were indeed "astute".

A blast from the past.

I go here when the current discussions are not doing anything for me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2017 02:45AM by Sod-buster.

Metal detectors paired with augmented or mixed reality.

Metal detectors that id gold and not nickels, not a scientist so not sure if can be a reality. hh

I know there are electronic gold testers sold.

Seems Tom had a pretty clear view into a crystal ball as to what the future would bring/how it would go with development of VLF's.

Even the PI tech he alludes to is now a reality (from the french guys basement to full blown development/testing at FT as of current) and most likely? (hopefully?) nearing the final stages before being announced as a release in the not so distant future (waiting patiently)

1. Combining VLF and PI technologies, that is, a hybrid version of the detector.
2. Simultaneous multifrequency (or variations of this topic).
3. Transition to fully digital processing of data using two ADCs, and without the use of ground phases as such.
4. IP68
5. Universality - the detector should be suitable both for beginners and professionals, and be adjusted to the requirements of the operator.
6. Also there are moments of standardization, when, for example, the control unit from one detector can be transferred to a rod from another manufacturer.

By the way, I am ready to give the concept of a new generation of metal detectors to manufacturers who are ready to switch to completely digital processing of data ...



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2017 06:47AM by vfp7.

MichiganRelicHunter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Seems Tom had a pretty clear view into a crystal b
> all as to what the future would bring/how it would
> go with development of VLF's.
>
> Even the PI tech he alludes to is now a reality (f
> rom the french guys basement to full blown develop
> ment/testing at FT as of current) and most likely?
> (hopefully?) nearing the final stages before being
> announced as a release in the not so distant futur
> e (waiting patiently)


French guy was using Eric Fosters Goldscan5 to start with it appears from the Manta Video. White's purchased the rights to the circuit thanks to a "Dog" on the forum. Looks promising.

Our detector manufacturers are all small businesses. They don’t have huge research departments or vast development budgets. New detector technology is a tough hill to climb. The complexity of sorting extremely weak target signals from strong and variable ground signal is huge. The phase shift techniques used in our VLF IB machines has yet to be replaced by any other means. It goes back decades. If there were an easy alternative to that, it would have been done years ago.

Look at Minelab. They make the world’s best Pulse Induction gold detectors - none of them offer reliable ferrous discrimination to full depth. Do you think for an minute that they would not include this feature if accomplishing it was easy? Likewise their truly new technology GPZ Detector - using new constant-current VLF technology - has no discrimination. Again, if adding that capability was easy do you think it would not be there?

Small teams, small budgets, the constant risk of wasting years and millions on projects which may never work out and be a marketable product - this is the real world for the detector manufacturers. Look at our best “fast follower” company = Makro/Nokta. They have impressed the marketplace with increasingly functional machines - introduced at a rapid pace. What they have not done is do anything which is truly new in terms of basic Detector system design. Their products are basically re-statements of the functional baseline first ste down by the T2 from Dave Johnson’s team at First Texas. That’s not a criticism, just an observation. Their rapid progress and pace of introduction of successive models is unprecedented.

In other words, don’t hold your breath.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Our detector manufacturers are all small businesse
> s. They don’t have huge research departments or v
> ast development budgets. New detector technology
> is a tough hill to climb. The complexity of sorti
> ng extremely weak target signals from strong and v
> ariable ground signal is huge. The phase shift te
> chniques used in our VLF IB machines has yet to be
> replaced by any other means. It goes back decades.
> If there were an easy alternative to that, it woul
> d have been done years ago.
>
> Look at Minelab. They make the world’s best Pulse
> Induction gold detectors - none of them offer rel
> iable ferrous discrimination to full depth. Do yo
> u think for an minute that they would not include
> this feature if accomplishing it was easy? Likewi
> se their truly new technology GPZ Detector - using
> new constant-current VLF technology - has no discr
> imination. Again, if adding that capability was ea
> sy do you think it would not be there?
>
> Small teams, small budgets, the constant risk of w
> asting years and millions on projects which may ne
> ver work out and be a marketable product - this is
> the real world for the detector manufacturers. Loo
> k at our best “fast follower” company = Makro/Nokt
> a. They have impressed the marketplace with incre
> asingly functional machines - introduced at a rapi
> d pace. What they have not done is do anything wh
> ich is truly new in terms of basic Detector system
> design. Their products are basically re-statement
> s of the functional baseline first ste down by the
> T2 from Dave Johnson’s team at First Texas. That’
> s not a criticism, just an observation. Their rap
> id progress and pace of introduction of successive
> models is unprecedented.
>
> In other words, don’t hold your breath.


I agree with some of what you said here.
But I disagree with your saying Makro/Nokta models being restatements.

Why?
The salt water stability of some of the Vlf detectors Makro/Nokta makes.

Does anyone make a single freq Vlf as stable in salt water as they do?
I don't know the answer.
But based on video seems their products do trump the Fisher 75 and T2 models in this area.

We might could say every detector made since the first metal detector model made is a restatement.

Refinement is a better word here.

Same applies to autos too.
TVs.
Even homes.

The CZd , why wasn't it refined by manufacturer?
To at least light weight and digital meter.
Possibly better mineral handling.

The speed of which Nokta/Makro can refine even their own older release units is remarkable.

Not years really but months.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2017 02:31PM by Sod-buster.

When I wrote “restatement” I meant that they took the T2’s approach to VLF detection - which was pretty stunning at the time and developed their own hardware and software platform to provide the same “sparky” and razor-sharp detection performance. That they succeeded in the process in achieving capabilities which exceed the T2 is to be expected given that decades have passed since the T2’s introduction.

So if you prefer “refinement” as a term, I have no problem with that.

As far as “refining” the CZ, there is little point. A lighter, cheaper CZ would not sell in sufficient numbers to justify spending money on developing it. Minelab “owns” the multifrequency market with their FBS/BBS - they have convinced the US market that so called “deep silver” hunters should use nothing else. Now ML is “refining” that with the Equinox. For all their talk about “Multi IQ” it is a “wrinkle” on their existing Multifreq platforms with far faster microprocessors and new software. Their new technology product (and it is truly new) is the $7000 GPZ.

First Texas is clearly working on new technology based not only on understanding digital filtering and RF design, but a deep understanding of soil physics. That kind of work takes enormous amounts of time and money. So far no new products have appeared. A lot of us are sad about that, but it’s a “long game” and they are in it for the long run.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2017 05:46PM by lytle78.

lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Our detector manufacturers are all small businesse
> s. They don’t have huge research departments or v
> ast development budgets. New detector technology
> is a tough hill to climb. The complexity of sorti
> ng extremely weak target signals from strong and v
> ariable ground signal is huge. The phase shift te
> chniques used in our VLF IB machines has yet to be
> replaced by any other means. It goes back decades.
> If there were an easy alternative to that, it woul
> d have been done years ago.
>
> Look at Minelab. They make the world’s best Pulse
> Induction gold detectors - none of them offer rel
> iable ferrous discrimination to full depth. Do yo
> u think for an minute that they would not include
> this feature if accomplishing it was easy? Likewi
> se their truly new technology GPZ Detector - using
> new constant-current VLF technology - has no discr
> imination. Again, if adding that capability was ea
> sy do you think it would not be there?
>
> Small teams, small budgets, the constant risk of w
> asting years and millions on projects which may ne
> ver work out and be a marketable product - this is
> the real world for the detector manufacturers. Loo
> k at our best “fast follower” company = Makro/Nokt
> a. They have impressed the marketplace with incre
> asingly functional machines - introduced at a rapi
> d pace. What they have not done is do anything wh
> ich is truly new in terms of basic Detector system
> design. Their products are basically re-statement
> s of the functional baseline first ste down by the
> T2 from Dave Johnson’s team at First Texas. That’
> s not a criticism, just an observation. Their rap
> id progress and pace of introduction of successive
> models is unprecedented.
>
> In other words, don’t hold your breath.

Excellent post. I enjoy all your inputs Rick.

I completely forgot about this thread. And.............................. how timely.
Nearly a decade later................ and this data remains applicable.

Pretty much spot on, NASA-Tom...and nearly a decade ago...

Impressive (and yes, timely!)

Steve

ML does make some good PIs, yet their best water machine isnt? Coming from a company surrounded by water why? With the EQ coming and a possible new plateform will they slim line/do away with more of their machines? They seem to be packing a lot in one machine at a crazy price...... add some bells and whistles missing.... will they then get back to the $2400 price tag. I for one am on the edge of my seat hoping Fisher does something with the PI.... soon. Some of the other company playing catch up will have to determine when to release a machine, continue R and D, or find a way to reduce costs to stay in the game.

There's a couple of major things we can look forward to...... fairly soon.

Why buy the Safari? You can have a water machine that weighs less and newer technology for the same price.
Why buy the ETRAC? Same reasons as above.
The 705? We now have 40 mHz with no coil changing involved.

I said it before but I will say it again....The first thing Minelab did with their new Equinox is obsolete their own detector line.

I see the CTX and Equinox being the detectors available. ALONG with the PI detectors. I don't see the Excalibur lasting because it just won't sell enough. Not that many divers out there.

The AT Pro changed the detecting world with the all terrain feature. That was missed in the predictions. Now with the Max and Nox along with the Makro unit coming the detecting world won't look back. Water ability or should I say all terrain will be mandatory. If nothing more than to make the detector easy to clean.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2017 04:53PM by goodmore.

Another shell game by Minelab?? did they not already have DD coil/detectors advertised at 28 frequency
range??a decade or more ago, hh If wrong stand corrected



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2017 06:48PM by guvmore.

dewcon4414 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ML does make some good PIs, yet their best water m
> achine isnt? Coming from a company surrounded by
> water why? With the EQ coming and a possible new
> plateform will they slim line/do away with more of
> their machines? They seem to be packing a lot in
> one machine at a crazy price...... add some bells
> and whistles missing.... will they then get back t
> o the $2400 price tag. I for one am on the edge
> of my seat hoping Fisher does something with the P
> I.... soon. Some of the other company playing ca
> tch up will have to determine when to release a ma
> chine, continue R and D, or find a way to reduce c
> osts to stay in the game.



The ATPRO had a lot packed in. So for found it to be a ho hum detector... it has done no better then my other detectors from the same price range..hh

What is with you and a few others PI love?
As far as I have seen they can't put Discrimination on them and no one will want to dig bobby pins all day long.
And if they could of put Discrimination on them they would have by now so it is a pipe dream that a few of you keep posting about that I am pretty sure will never happen.
There is a reason hardly anyone uses PI Detectors.


dewcon4414 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ML does make some good PIs, yet their best water m
> achine isnt? Coming from a company surrounded by
> water why? With the EQ coming and a possible new
> plateform will they slim line/do away with more of
> their machines? They seem to be packing a lot in
> one machine at a crazy price...... add some bells
> and whistles missing.... will they then get back t
> o the $2400 price tag. I for one am on the edge
> of my seat hoping Fisher does something with the P
> I.... soon. Some of the other company playing ca
> tch up will have to determine when to release a ma
> chine, continue R and D, or find a way to reduce c
> osts to stay in the game.

GM.....you may get a surprise. We may not have disc as you know it....... but there are a couple that do some what...... like the Finny hi-lo tones. Im just looking for a PI that you can flip a switch and reverse disc like an Xcal. i dont even need a lot of tones. I believe Dave made several posts about having done it but Whites didnt want to put it out so it was a project hed be working on. Didnt sound like a pipe dream to me. I guess i have to ask........ are you are water hunter? If you are then im not sure why youd NOT want a PI with disc. Not only would you get depth..... but sensitivity to smaller targets in the Salt water we dont get from multi freq.

Dew

Remember when the Garrett ATX came out that was suppose to be everyones PI machine.
How many people do you know who use one? I don't know anyone who has or uses a ATX or a PI detector.

GreeneMeanie -- I guess it depends on where you hang your hat. 85% of the relic hunters I know are swinging pulse machines, between the GPX, ATX, and TDI. And that covers a lot of hunters. In my area, everyone has them now. My buddy just ordered a GPX today as a matter of fact.

Many water hunters i know here have a PI..... they are a great nitch machine during the winter months, when we really get sanded in, and dealing with the black sand hard pan. Yes I do know some who use them as their full time machines IN the salt water...... or wet sand. I believe it was Tom who said there was 10 to 1 ration of bad to good targets IN the salt water ..... stuff gets dissolved much quicker in the water. Right now....... even with the CTX, you can tell by how smooth it runs, theres a lot of fresh moved sand and very few targets.... so some grab the PI. So i most certainly see a place for a PI...... and we have a lot of divers.

PI machines have a place in beach metal detecting. Depth is everything. Tom's beach hunting video explains that quite well. The problem is the availability of good PI models. Some are not waterproof. Some weigh a ton. Yes I consistently complain about detector weight, but if you have never beach hunted you just have no idea how fatiguing it can be. Being physically fit comes into the success factor a great deal. There is a future out there for a good water PI unit which ties into this thread. The Whites Dual field is the last one I had. I just couldn't get the thing down in my brain. And to be honest I just didn't have the time to learn it.

To GreenMeany and others who may have missed this and/or just haven't seen or heard about it = this is the current future of PI's,

it's here now and being tested/refined as we speak (FT and this guy have teamed up in developing it to bring to market).

If they stick it in a waterproof housing they'll sell millions of them worldwide as every beach/water hunter on the planet will have to have one not to mention many others who can utilize it.

Me = I have multi-use for it as a relic/coin huntin machine in some of my dirt fishin sites but I also have 300+ miles of Lake Michigan beachfront to hunt spring/summer/fall where a PI has been a nightmare to use in the past because steel (bobby pins, crowncaps, etc) doesn't just rust away overnight like it does in salt environments, yet, where a PI punches deeper than any VLF machine (especially in the water) as we do have certain minerals out there as well as magnetic type sand in moderate concentration in certain areas mixed in with the white sand that restricts/interferes with the depth of VLF's.

[www.youtube.com]

you will be able to talk to your fridge and vacuum cleaner before you can speak to your detector

Quote
“diggers”
you will be able to talk to your fridge and vacuum cleaner

Will be?

I yelled some obscenity at my frig last week when I saw I was out of beer...