This is rather disturbing in regards to quality control...

Read this Findmall post:

[www.findmall.com]

Kinda made me sit up and take notice!!!

This is why I said what I said in the post to Ozzie, in the Mark G. 'Bad Coil" post.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2011 11:15PM by TerraDigger.

There is a defferents between customer service with the bad coil and no phone call.

QC with the guts of a standard F75 in the assembly of a BLACK SE .
Should it happen no but one can see how it could. You might see a few more pop up if thy had a run of them.

I see it like the wrong date on a coin. Not a major deal.

Falling down in customer service, and Ozzie isn't the only recent post I have seen in regards to poor CS, combined with mislabling detectors is indicative of more than 'isolated' incidents.
Am I trying to beat up on First Texas........NO!!!!!! But as a new owner of a T2..........I sure as hell don't want to see this from a company that is supposed to take care of my machine for the next 5 years. Plus I had been planning on getting future units from First Texas. So when I post stuff like this, its because as a customer, I have a vested interest that First Texas stays on the ball. Its all about transparency........and as one of their customers, I have a right to that. I PAID FOR THAT RIGHT WITH MY MONEY WHEN I BOUGHT THEIR PRODUCT.

What next? We forgot to put the circuit board in the detector....no big whoop.....yeah!......right!!!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2011 12:35AM by TerraDigger.

Fisher has been in the business far too long to let this go. It'll be addressed I'm sure.

I sent Mike Scott a pm and he got right back to me. He said he would take care of me and to call him with my information on Monday. That's what I like, quick response...feeling better now. Thanks guys for your guidence.

That makes us Happy. Like Tom D. said "Mike Scott is a good guy about these things".
Just as a side comment to my prior post: I don't think First Texas would/does anything to hurt their customers. That would be untrue and unfair to state such.
But do realize this, in a majority of cases, it is the detectorists themselves who bring these issues to the light of day, and if they didn't post about it, the manufacturers, in many cases, wouldn't resolve the issues.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2011 01:57AM by TerraDigger.

I can't even imagine a machine like this being around a well established business like First Texas .....Then again , it could have been a disgruntled employee ........Someone trying to hurt the company ......Detector companies are not in the business of doing things like this ..... They have a reputation to uphold ....I'm sure they will take care of this and heads will roll !!!.....Still sucks that something like this happens ......Very unfortunate ....Jim

with a number assigned to each inspector...

I have strayed away from First Texas for the very reason...Poor Q.C.

I wont go into details but I have had bad experiences ...My money is too hard earned for such thing's to happen...they have great technology BUT (you fill in the rest)!!!!


Keith

Keith ,
If a number is assigned to each inspector , wouldn't that idicate that each inspector is responsible for his/her repair ? ....... I had a problem one time with something unrelated to metal detecting , and the company owner asked me to look on the repair sheet and tell him what initials were there , and he said " I'll take care of it from here" ...... Now that I remember , I have heard some stories about First Texas and issues within ......???????......Too bad .......They are responsible for a LOT of companies products ......Jim

They need to stop this type of sloppy repair work and poor customer service asap. A company can die just as easily because it's growing too fast, and this is one of the first places you start to see the chink in the armor. This can be the first nail in the FT coffin if they aren't careful.

So far this is 1 isolated problem. Its has not shown up anywhere else. Mike Scott got right in the middle of it right off the bat and fixed the problem asap. He handled it very professionally and tracked down where the problem happened. That is how a company is suppose to run. Everyone makes mistakes. Its how you handle them that shows the character of the company and determines whether they succeed or fail.

Bart Davis,
[www.BigBoysHobbies.net]
Authorized Minelab, Garrett, Fisher and Teknetics Dealer

No not an isolated problem, I received my 1270 and open the box and the detector was never mounted to the handle, and Fisher wouldn't do anything about it, had a go around with KellyCo before they would send me another one. And also I've been in communication with Mike Scott over a coil that their ads for the 1270 say 1200 series coil are interchangeable and they are not, my 10.5 1200 ser. coil will not pinpoint on the 1270. finally one of their TECH's told me the older one are not comparable one has 4 wires the other has 5, well numerous e-mails back and forth and Mike Scott just stopped communication and I still have this 10.5 with no pinpoint.Poor customer service. Sent my F75 Ltd in for repair for a coil the sounds off every time it bumps something or tap the coil or cable, and I'm pretty sure that it's still the same although I haven't given it good workout cause of the snow but it's still sounding off. Don't think they could have tested it out when they finished the repair. I also think they have poor QC.

I'm also concerned about quality control. As I understand it, First Texas has their assembly plant across the border? Call it a negative stigma if you must, but that gives me pause. I would feel better if they were still truly made in America.

This is correct Mojave. The circuit boards are assembled in Juarez, Mexico. This is directly quoted by Dave Johnson, Head Engineer, First Texas Products in a post on another forum. I have a copy of that post.
I to, wonder why they couldn't do this assembly in the United States. Makes the 'Made in America' statement almost ludicrous. Detector parts are from outside of the United States and the board is assembled in Mexico. But 'legally' they are allowed to state 'Made in America'.
As much as I admire Dave Johnson for his technical skills, I don't agree with his assessment that mexican labor is equal to what the U.S. labor force can produce. If he believes that, well, all I can say is..........yeah.......right!!!!!! Try hiring the right americans to do the job........not minimum wager's.
How much longer do americans have to listen to the Siren's song of american business?........'we have to outsource or go under' yet their profit margins continue to increase. At who's expense is this done?



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2011 10:47PM by TerraDigger.

Quote

I to, wonder why they couldn't do this assembly in the United States

Oh, I don't wonder why they don't do it. Why pay an American citizen $15 an hour when they can give some Mexican worker $5.00 an hour (or less) to do the same work? As common a practice as this is, I find myself seeking out companies who don't use unscrupulous outsourcing tactics such as these just to save a few bucks. Unfortunately, when First Texas bought Fisher, the old Fisher brand we all knew and loved adopted this new model of doing business. I have definitely lost a lot of respect for the company.

So, what's left? Whites, Garrett, and Tesoro? Minelab was an Australian company assembling its parts in Ireland, I believe, and now they are in Malaysia to save money after being bought out by a big conglomerate. It's just a matter of time before every company does this in order to stay "competitive." Slippery slopes.

I don't believe Mexican labor is equivalent to US labor. Factoring in the huge difference in education, and how could it possibly be equal? There's a reason why CZ3D's made today consistently fail to live up to the standards of the old ones made in California.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2011 11:48PM by Mojave.

"give some non-american (fill in the blank) worker $5.00 an hour (fill in the blank) (or less) to do the same work".
Work, does not equal quality. LOL
Nuff said.........



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2011 02:11PM by TerraDigger.

Some low volume labor intensive circuit boards are assembled in Mexico like the CZ3D and others after the parts are gathered and kitted in TX then sent to Mexico. These boards are then assembled by machines or robots- it would be the same robot or machine assembling the circuit boards regardless of where the robot is located....... Its not like there are a bunch of people in a room in Mexico building circuit boards for us............................LOL.
Units are made in the USA and anyone with an inkling of knowledge regarding the manufacturing process of a low or even high end metal detectors would realize there is lots more to it than plugging a circuit board into a housing and boxing it up........Just because one of the smallest components of the unit is assembled in Mexico on a state of the art robot doesnt make the detector not made in USA.


Mike @ FTP

Mike...welcome to the forum and thank you for joining us. I for one, think having a representative of any manufacturer in attendance on the forum shows both the pride that person takes in his company as well as his concern for the product line. I appreciate the time you will take to give us information "from the horses mouth" and I'm sure others will as well.
I am the proud owner of the F75 LTD and I look forward to owning other FTP detectors in the future. I just wish there would be some strong rumor start to circulate about the next big thing so I can plan my future purchase....LOL!!
Put 'em together in Texas, Mexico or your living room.....I don't care.....just keep bringing cutting edge technology to us and standing behind the products!!

Thanks again for being here!

Dave

I agree completely.
I too have used both the F75 and the F75 LTD and really enjoy using both machines.
Now I have a strong desire and need for Fisher to come out with a multi-frequency that will knock Minelab off the too of the ladder.
I have some of the harshest ground in Virginia to hunt with, usually my feo meter will max out reducing the depth I can obtain. All three of my hunting buddies have multi-frequency machines that appears to out do my LTD in some of the harshest areas. Being a die hard Fisher man I'll just have to wait for the next machine.
Thanks Mike for posting here. We really need you to show up.





DKinPA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mike...welcome to the forum and thank you for
> joining us. I for one, think having a
> representative of any manufacturer in attendance
> on the forum shows both the pride that person
> takes in his company as well as his concern for
> the product line. I appreciate the time you will
> take to give us information "from the horses
> mouth" and I'm sure others will as well.
> I am the proud owner of the F75 LTD and I look
> forward to owning other FTP detectors in the
> future. I just wish there would be some strong
> rumor start to circulate about the next big thing
> so I can plan my future purchase....LOL!!
> Put 'em together in Texas, Mexico or your living
> room.....I don't care.....just keep bringing
> cutting edge technology to us and standing behind
> the products!!
>
> Thanks again for being here!
>
> Dave

I'm not totally convinced that the transmission of multi-frequencies inherently offers better performance in bad dirt. Maybe Minelab's signal processing algorithms inherently minimize the effect of bad dirt versus the number of frequencies thrown into the ground. If I remember correctly, they never try to cancel the effects, but rather measure the delta from some base level. Heck, if you transmit a square wave you are theoretically transmitting an infinite number of frequencies.

???

I think it has more to do with how it is processed than it being mult-frequency,
that is they use time domain to process the signal verses frq domain.
Those detectors act more like a single low frq unit
So they are somewhat insensitive to very low conductors which doesn't
correspond to the effective use of multi on those low conductors.
Both the DFX and V3 offer multi frq but I haven't read anywhere that anyone
uses those modes over single frq option.
But it appears FT is going to announce something, maybe multi.
Hopefully they have created a new benchmark.
I wish I could be on the test list......

Steve(MS) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
I want to be on the test list too.






> I think it has more to do with how it is processed
> than it being mult-frequency,
> that is they use time domain to process the signal
> verses frq domain.
> Those detectors act more like a single low frq
> unit
> So they are somewhat insensitive to very low
> conductors which doesn't
> correspond to the effective use of multi on those
> low conductors.
> Both the DFX and V3 offer multi frq but I haven't
> read anywhere that anyone
> uses those modes over single frq option.
> But it appears FT is going to announce something,
> maybe multi.
> Hopefully they have created a new benchmark.
> I wish I could be on the test list......

Pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

Tom might have the knowledge to expand on this topic.


go-rebels Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not totally convinced that the transmission of
> multi-frequencies inherently offers better
> performance in bad dirt. Maybe Minelab's signal
> processing algorithms inherently minimize the
> effect of bad dirt versus the number of
> frequencies thrown into the ground. If I remember
> correctly, they never try to cancel the effects,
> but rather measure the delta from some base level.
> Heck, if you transmit a square wave you are
> theoretically transmitting an infinite number of
> frequencies.
>
> ???

Keith wrote:
"I have strayed away from First Texas for the very reason...Poor Q.C.

I wont go into details but I have had bad experiences ...My money is too hard earned for such thing's to happen...they have great technology BUT (you fill in the rest)!!!!"



I have to agree with the above statement. My experience with my 75 LTD was not good, and could not be resolved by FTP. I'm sure that machine works as good as everyone here says but not the one I had. The CZ's may be, considered "old tech", however those machines were a benchmark in excellence and quality from the old FISHER that will NEVER again be repeated. In FTP's defense I will say this. They did resolve a issue with a brand new CZ 3D I bought last year. It had only air tested a dime at 6 inches and I sent it back and it was recalibrated to air test a dime at 10". Some of you may recall this, it was exactly a year ago. It was a big topic on the forum back then. Some pretty interesting things were brought to light regarding FTP at that time. I ended up selling that 3D and getting a "depth demon" that air tests a dime at 12". And yes, it was manufactured, you guessed it in Los Banos USA.
Thanks but I will stick to my V3, CZ and MINELABS for now...
HH! Aaron



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2011 04:25AM by Aaron.

i am not disturbed at all!!!!!!!!!! i have had nothing but positive experiences with ftp and fisher!!!!!!!! dealing with Felix, Daniel, and even Mike Scott i have a very positive opinion of there customer service!
i am a electronics assembler/test technician/repair technician and i have allot of QC experience...........it would be almost impossible for some of the things that are reported to be happening at fisher/ftp to be occurring. and if they did i absolutely cannot believe that they(fisher/ftp)would not make things right!!!!!!!!
read between the lines and remember the fury that erupted over the ftp fisher acquisition and you will begin to understand the root problem!!!!!
chuck.

Back to the multi-frq question, I think I remember ML uses rectangular waves, not sure of the
difference, maybe someone in the know can add a reply.
Seems I have read also that they use 3 frqs and maybe only 2 of them at any given time.
The 14 and 28 are most likely harmonics, probably a byproduct of multi.
If FT can introduce a new type of mult-frq and it doesn't suffer from VLF related mineralized ground woes,
wow, now that would be earth shattering, say something approaching PI brute force.
So far any VLF whether single or mult frq hits those "brick walls" on any given mineral containing ground.
I think everyone is in agreement about the ability of CZs to punch deep so if they can improve on it
to any degree, use one of their lightweight frames, it should be a winner.
ML has given a wide open door for the competition to take part of their market share, with their not so
good custormer service of late, heavy old style frames and the recent moving of headquarters and production.
Their products peeked out while Bruce C was there, haven't seen much improvement since then.

My experience with First Texas has been that the people involved have been first class and extremely helpful. Dave Johnson, Frank Garcia, Lupe Guerrero, Felix, Daniel, Maria and others have gone out of their way to make things right when I have had an issue with one of their detectors. I've never directly dealt with Mike Scott, but I know from following the forums that he has made things right for many who have had problems.

I love my F5. Sounds a little goofy I know, but I feel that when detecting I have become one with the machine as I have gotten to know its strengths and quirks very well. The biggest negative I can say is that I've had to send it back in for multiple repair issues. The folks at First Texas made the experience as painless as possible - from Felix sending me prepaid return labels to Dave Johnson taking personal charge of repairing an EMI issue to Frank and Lupe going the extra mile and then some...

I've had my F75 camo LTD for over a year now and not had any major problems with it. I just sent it in for repair because the control box was progressively getting looser where it was attached to the rod. It still worked OK but I could tell that it was looser than it should have been and I wanted to get it tightened before it became an issue. Daniel explained to me how to tighten it myself, but it involved removing the faceplate and he suggested I send it in to avoid voiding the warranty. I also sent in the coils as Felix always suggests, since they retune those for optimum performance when you send in a detector for repair.

I'm not posting to dispute anybody who has had a problem with FT repair, I just wanted to share my perspecitve from personal experience.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2011 06:45AM by marcomo.

I've only had 3 detectors - Nautilus IIB, T2 and now an Omega.

My Nautilus and T2 never had an issue. Now that I have an Omega I have started to have issues. I've only had it for 8 months or so and it's been sent in twice. The first time it was sent back and still had the problem of not staying on after being shut off and then back on again during a hunt. They replaced something having to do with the sensitivity control board the second time in and now it's fine. The service was very good, I have no complaints about how I was treated. But I do think the unit should have been tested according to what my complaint was as then it never would have been sent back.

My only real complaint is a general one - I would like to see better quality in the units. I'm not even saying that because mine broke, for after having a solidly built T2 for 3 years and then having switched to an Omega - I could feel the difference. Yeah, it's a cheaper unit but 600 bucks is 600 bucks. I own just one detector so would like it to be built more durable. I'll still buy FTP products but really do hope they improve on the quality FEEL of the units. It would be nice in 10 years for me to still have trust in the unit working - I don't want to have to sell it as the warranty runs out due to lack of trust in the quality which of course I somewhat have.

All that said, I am really looking forward to the new F80 or CZ80 when it comes out (shortly) ;-)

I guess with any of the major brands we should be happy we arent getting that dredged ..... HI MY NAME IS BOB HOW MAY I HELP YOU from India. When that happens you know CS has went out the window.

Dew