BLENDY,BLEEDY,Open Audio Gate Etc.

Blendy audio is where the tones calliope together ..Hence the Term Open Audio Gate..

On a gated unit once the unit commits to a tone it has to follow through for the report then stop and start again..the object can be a nail report or a dime report or anything int he world..but once its committed it has to report..then shut off then start again..even in a heavily littered site...like a nail and a dime in close proximity...it has the option of giving a combined snapshot report or a report of the nail and then the dime but not at the same time...So either you get a averaging report of the two targets that could be a iron report form co-located target averaging.. or you get a tone that flip flops from nail low tone to high dime tone..a burp beep report separated from each other......

On a Non gated audio unit which is BLENDY reporting and you have the same target of nail and Dime in close proximity that can start as a iron tone and become a high tone and then go back to iron tone in the same snapshot ..the tones will BLEND on top of each other..And by doing this allow for far more NOISE to the operator but also give INTELLIGENT audio clues to the operator if he listens...The open Gated Bendy Audio is not restricted to having to commit to a report it can change mid stream to something else...a very sonic way to hunt..way more telling than any Visual system...

A BLEEDY report is referring to the strength of the Disc filters...Some disc circuits can cancel a target and it will be perfectly quiet when passed over ..no sporadic audio from the disc'd item..Some can have a choppy report...The some cna have a very gravel sounding BLEED of the targets although there disc'd they still try to report although Intelligently HOPEFULLY..

SO combine a circuit that bleeds say a disc'd nail...by doing this it will also allow for a item like a button lying under it to have a fighting chance...to strong of a filter on the disc and the nulling of the nail will null the button too..BUt give it some BLEED through and you will have a better PEEK around the iron..

Take the Bleedy and the BLendy option and use them in unison in a circuit plus allow the dsoc to precisely break the tone and then we have a next level unmasking...

Couple that with higher freqs and tighter coils and we move even further..

But this option not only help in unmasking in nails but also help in Unmasking in MINERAL...a strong mineral that is allowed to BLEED can give up some goodies that is usually lost in the machine trying to quieten the mineral noise..instead hear some mineral noise and by doing this the MINERAL will be like a background DIN radiation and the little blips and such can break through..

there seems to be some confusion as to what does what..

Heres some popular units from different manufacturer's..

Fisher/Tek/FTP:

F75/T2 Omega/F19

These are really not in either category...they really don't BLEND and they really don't BLEED except a F75 but it's more of a Falsing on iron than a true Bleed unit..BUT the T2 at the same time is ONE of the machine's that launched a NEW GENERATION OF DETECTOR DESIGN..HYPER GAIN units and also coupled to a Visual ID system to boot!!!!!.the T2 is a the forerunner to a Merging of NEW WAYS...One was Hyper Gain and fast shutdown on targets.

XP:

GM/GMP/DEUS

Heres something Noteworthy ..the GoldMax original came out at about the same time or even earlier than the T2 BUT it was non Visual ID and limited to 2 tone or three tone ..YET it was the beginning of the Blender revolution and also the a Great Bleeder...And I still to this day have a deep suspicion this unit was developed from a Tesoro circuit in its core DNA Tejon comes to mind with added tones....The Goldmax was a hyper TYPE unit that blended and bleed to boot ..a few years later the GMP came out and was more Hyper ...then the DEUS came out and its CORE is the GMP with Visual Id and and such..still very much a bleeder and blender..Also a hyper unit but not a Hyper T2 type unit.. not that controlled to unleashed over the top sizzle hyper activity like a PROPER T2 or F75 offered..

The GMP though had hit on some MAGIC...and the magic was Bleeding and bleeding but also ability to Choose tone break for Iron...and even allow for Iron volume control!

And it has the ability to Power balance though Ground Bal..a big major attribute!!

Garrett:

Garrett AT-Pro

Talk about taking Blending to a new level...The AT-PRO studied blending for its DNA of the new Platform that's for sure...and probably studied it from a GMP??? and then pushed that Function to the max..it's not a hyper gain unit BUT its does offer DD coils and higher freq and also ability to break the iron tone to the disc setting..HUGE!!!!!And proved that the fastest is not as required to separate co-locates as it was thought of in say the T2 design...a NEW way fo doing things was developing and it did not mean fast shut down and recovery to unlock targets..FTP was using speed and XP was suing speed and Blending and Bleeding..Now Garret was using the Blending to expose targets with relatively normal speed.. and created as I see it a WORLD CLASS unlocker in iron..EXCELLENT DESIGN>>>ADD Some more gain and it could easily be the top tier unit in the world..excellent to almost eerie accurate I.D. in iron..best Ive ever seen..

and it also can Power balance!!

Mak/Nok

Racer's/CoRe/Relic/others

Now we are getting somewhere..they seem to have Taken a T2 and a GMP and AT-PRO and blended it together..Its very much a hyper gain unit like a T2 but then it's taken the GMP blend and Bleed ways of doing things and then matched the AT-PRO excellent visual I.D. to the unit...I've always looked at the Mak/Noks as they looked at what was WORKING across the industry and built off that...a little here and a little there..and also by doing this they Created their own standalone DNA..Its created a line of units that uses Blending and Bleeding as its very CORE DNA ((and I believe maybe the best Bleeder unit of all produced to date..))And has built a line of coils to emphasise the ability of the DNA..

If they would add ability of the unit to be ground reactive like the GMP and AT Series it would push into the mineral even better than now..bleedy filters and Ground reactivity ability in the audio can and will push a unit into bad soil ....they have the power NOW just offer some reactivity of the ground.. they seem to analyze the ground signal in disc like a T2..offsetting does not offer any great Feedback in the disc circuit intelligently like it does on a GMP and a AT PRO...Once you have some intelligent feedback from the ground signal and use bleedy filters more depth will be achieved in higher mineral..

Whites:

MX5 MXSPORT

they have entered the field of blending with there newer releases..these unit blend very well...not the best bleeders...but great blenders..

There's more out there too as of late..

but what is most important is manufacturers have seen and discovered that to unmask the newest way to do it is thorough blending and bleeding to get those stubborn Co-Locates..

Wonderful how far this can be pushed especially SONICALLY ??

I think in the coming years we will find out..in fact I'm certain of that..

HANG ON IT'S NOT STALLED YET!!

It's in its infancy...Audio is the future of unmasking...just now though through processing they can take what used to be Noise and turn it in to a new way of intelligent feedback..

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

Dang Keith, you might as well write a book. Lol.

Excellent information there Keith where do the Deeptech units fit in to that list ?

Thanks Keith, that is an impressive run down, I am still kicking around the Idea of the Relic But I want to know as to what bits are missing when you compare it to the Fors Gold+

Here is One or two I am also looking at, Checkout the specs on them

The Detech Relic Striker, That is running at 4.8 Khz

[detech-metaldetectors.ro]

And Also The Detech EDS Gold Catcher that runs at 28 KHz

[detech-metaldetectors.ro]

I think that these two machines might have something to offer but the jury is still out and I would like to hear / know more about them.

Thanks again, Top Man.

John.

PS, Keith I would like to know more about that Imask Gizmo where you made the machine tame down the soil when you have time Please.

John.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2016 06:22PM by auminesweeper.

I'm surprised the Deeptech Vista's didn't get a mention there......
And XP's GMAXX2 is also identical in function to it's 18KHz twin.

As far as I'm aware, Alain (XP) doesn't have any patent on the 'Goldmaxx audio', so there's no real reason why it couldn't be just another mode on a number of other modern machines, for example the T2/F75/etc.

LOL..

Yes the DeepTechs are very good B&B 's. (Bleeders & blender's)...I just finally left it as other's too instead of listing everything in the explanation..it took me 30 minutes to write that up..

I hope the info was ENOUGH there to at least create a Picture..

Harold I have alot I'd like to talk about just not the time..I've only BOTHERED most people with SOME of my thoughts..but far from all of them ....No BOOKS though....good lord could you imagine the headache!!

iMASK........... Ill work on some info!!

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

I loved the audio on my AT Pro. The downside was the small screen. I had a hard time seeing the details on it...

Agree on the at pro gain. I can often run it wide open and it's wisper quiet. Wish they would've gave the user the ability to push as you see fit.

Thx for the info. Waiting as well on the IMask run down.

Yes more power on the AT PRO would be the ticket..

Although for the first 9 inches in my soil it doesn't miss much low or high conductor..

Glad we have more coil options though..... no other coil (so far) beat's that 5x8 factory coil in iron..

Thinking of adding a 13 ultimate to the AT PRO..If it gives it 2-3 inches over stock on a dime LOOK OUT..

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

Keith Southern Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes more power on the AT PRO would be the
> ticket..
>
> Although for the first 9 inches in my soil it
> doesn't miss much low or high conductor..
>
> Glad we have more coil options though..... no
> other coil (so far) beat's that 5x8 factory coil
> in iron..
>
> Thinking of adding a 13 ultimate to the AT PRO..If
> it gives it 2-3 inches over stock on a dime LOOK
> OUT..
>
> Keith

Keith, Why not the 12x10, because how they work in your Dirt ?

I have seen many complaints about the coil cover falling off on the Ultimate where some folks have had to Tape it up when they have been out in the field.

John.

Even with that coil it won't Whip my Nautilus with a 10" coil in My ground.

Well picke done up today..

super lightweight...

airtest on a nickle added a good 4 inches over stock....

Not sure they offer a 10x12 for the AT series...that 10x12 isa great coil for sure especially on a pistol grip but on a nose heavy already AT that would be a Bear..

I like a Ultimate Too always have and this one from initial run seems to hold up to the Ultimate rep...DEEEEP..SMOOTH..LIGHT!!!!!

coil cover?? never had a ultimate cover come off..butter bowl lid type it snaps over a ridge around edge of coil.....Sort of hard to get off at times

Ive ran one alot on a F19 coil cover not came off yet in the field..

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

Keith Southern Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well picke done up today..
>
> super lightweight...
>
> airtest on a nickle added a good 4 inches over
> stock....
>
> Not sure they offer a 10x12 for the AT
> series...that 10x12 isa great coil for sure
> especially on a pistol grip but on a nose heavy
> already AT that would be a Bear..
>
> I like a Ultimate Too always have and this one
> from initial run seems to hold up to the Ultimate
> rep...DEEEEP..SMOOTH..LIGHT!!!!!
>
> coil cover?? never had a ultimate cover come
> off..butter bowl lid type it snaps over a ridge
> around edge of coil.....Sort of hard to get off at
> times
>
> Ive ran one alot on a F19 coil cover not came off
> yet in the field..
>
> Keith

Keith, back when the first SEF's came out they were a bit sloppy fitting and I found a way to make them fit better by taking it off the Coil and heating it up with a hairdryer NOT a heat Gun by heating up around all the channel edges and pinching them closer together as ya Go and go round it a couple of times and I never ever had troubles ever again. So if there are any loose areas on the Ultimate Coil Cover just do the above and let it cool down and then put it back on and it will be snug as a Bug.,

hope this helps.

John.

I've owned/used several 13" Ultimate coils over the years for both the FT detectors and Etracs.-----Never had a coil cover for them come off or even be loose--ever.-----In fact--they were ALL tight fitting.------I will say---on that coil (13" Ultimate)---you definitely do want to have a coil cover on it.------So if it is loose---do something to keep it on.

Prior to you mentioning it keith I never even knew they made the ultimate for the AT. Very little info if you Google, heck it's hard to tell they make them looking around the Web. Two of my friends use the 13x14 Nels and they are very deep. I filmed a friend dig a .58 at a measured 13" (real good dirt). I was really suprised

How's the weight/balance on the ultimate vs the stock?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2016 01:18AM by deadlift.

D&P-OR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've owned/used several 13" Ultimate coils over
> the years for both the FT detectors and
> Etracs.-----Never had a coil cover for them come
> off or even be loose--ever.-----In fact--they were
> ALL tight fitting.------I will say---on that coil
> (13" Ultimate)---you definitely do want to have a
> coil cover on it.------So if it is loose---do
> something to keep it on.

Del, How was the depth compared to the standard E-Trac Coil, Did you ever Air Test them side by side ?

thanks mate,

John.

auminesweeper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> D&P-OR Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I've owned/used several 13" Ultimate coils over
> > the years for both the FT detectors and
> > Etracs.-----Never had a coil cover for them
> come
> > off or even be loose--ever.-----In fact--they
> were
> > ALL tight fitting.------I will say---on that
> coil
> > (13" Ultimate)---you definitely do want to have
> a
> > coil cover on it.------So if it is loose---do
> > something to keep it on.
>
> Del, How was the depth compared to the standard
> E-Trac Coil, Did you ever Air Test them side by
> side ?
>
> thanks mate,
>
> John.


I have John.----Although I never considered FBS detectors to air test all that well----what I did see in air tests was----between the 11" Pro coil (stock coil) and the 13" Ultimate coil on the Etrac was almost identical air test depths (tested with a clad dime & clad quarter).------I did the tests in my shop with electrical equip. turned off (no EMI).------On the Etrac in auto sens. (+3) with the 13" ultimate, I got 8" on a clad dime & 9" on a clad quarter.----with the 11" Pro coil same settings (auto sens. +3) I got the same depth readings on the dime & quarter.--------When the Etrac was set on 26 manual sensitivity--with the Ultimate coil, I got 12"-12 1/2" on the clad dime and 14"-14 1/2" on the quarter-----with the 11" Pro coil (26 manual sens.), I got 12 1/2" on the clad dime & 14" on the quarter, so air test depth was essentially the same--------HOWEVER---in my large test area on in ground buried targets (clad and silver coins)---the Ultimate coil got considerable more depth than the stock coil (1 1/2" to 2" deeper).-------What I thought was interesting to---in the test bed---the little Omega 8000 (version 6) mounted with a 13" Ultimate coil seemed to get just as good of depth as an Etrac mounted with an Ultimate coil.------The Omega/Ultimate coil is a very good combo.----I live in gold country & a lot of the area around here is pretty heavily mineralized so depth on a detector is a "challenge".----------Del

Keith,

I'm surprised you haven't put the AT Pro on a straight shaft rig. Plugger makes them but they look pretty easy to DIY. I was going to get one for the AT Gold if I had planned to keep it. I hate S rod configurations.

D&P-OR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> auminesweeper Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > D&P-OR Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I've owned/used several 13" Ultimate coils
> over
> > > the years for both the FT detectors and
> > > Etracs.-----Never had a coil cover for them
> > come
> > > off or even be loose--ever.-----In fact--they
> > were
> > > ALL tight fitting.------I will say---on that
> > coil
> > > (13" Ultimate)---you definitely do want to
> have
> > a
> > > coil cover on it.------So if it is loose---do
> > > something to keep it on.
> >
> > Del, How was the depth compared to the standard
> > E-Trac Coil, Did you ever Air Test them side by
> > side ?
> >
> > thanks mate,
> >
> > John.
>
>
> I have John.----Although I never considered FBS
> detectors to air test all that well----what I did
> see in air tests was----between the 11" Pro coil
> (stock coil) and the 13" Ultimate coil on the
> Etrac was almost identical air test depths (tested
> with a clad dime & clad quarter).------I did the
> tests in my shop with electrical equip. turned off
> (no EMI).------On the Etrac in auto sens. (+3)
> with the 13" ultimate, I got 8" on a clad dime &
> 9" on a clad quarter.----with the 11" Pro coil
> same settings (auto sens. +3) I got the same depth
> readings on the dime & quarter.--------When the
> Etrac was set on 26 manual sensitivity--with the
> Ultimate coil, I got 12"-12 1/2" on the clad dime
> and 14"-14 1/2" on the quarter-----with the 11"
> Pro coil (26 manual sens.), I got 12 1/2" on the
> clad dime & 14" on the quarter, so air test depth
> was essentially the same--------HOWEVER---in my
> large test area on in ground buried targets (clad
> and silver coins)---the Ultimate coil got
> considerable more depth than the stock coil (1
> 1/2" to 2" deeper).-------What I thought was
> interesting to---in the test bed---the little
> Omega 8000 (version 6) mounted with a 13" Ultimate
> coil seemed to get just as good of depth as an
> Etrac mounted with an Ultimate coil.------The
> Omega/Ultimate coil is a very good combo.----I
> live in gold country & a lot of the area around
> here is pretty heavily mineralized so depth on a
> detector is a "challenge".----------Del

Cool Del, well in that case the E-Trac is air testing really well, even when you compare it to machines like mine, In the C&J or Alt Relic mode because of the threshold it really adds depth and in the All metal/ prospecting mode you can hear it at huge distances, But In the standard Relic mode if you ignore the threshold it will bleep around 12 to 12 and a 1/2 inches on a quarter too with the standard 10"DD, with the MXT Pro no doubt they test better with that 12" Coil, But with the 14x10 it adds a couple of inches but on larger things it sees them at insane distances, Well beyond any other thing I have tested whether it be coil or machine, But I need to try that 15" MXT Max Coil, being a concentric in theory it should test better but the Ground needs to behave.

If you got the Etrac doing those distances then that is about as good as any other machine out there, So I think you have just busted a myth,

Well done mate, thanks for that.

John.

The ultimate Vs stock weight wise ..the ultimate is very lite for size yet heavier than stock coil?? Stock coil weighs 468 grams without cover..this one weighs 480 with cover or without not sure just the way it's listed so??.. the ultimate seems to balance out better on the end of the rod also..

Just a monster on the depth...I like DeTech technology over any of the after market coils..




Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2016 02:30PM by Keith Southern.

According to my very accurate postal scales-----the Minelab Pro coil (for the Etrac) weighs 19.3 oz.-----the 13" Ultimate coil (for the Etrac) weighs 21.5 oz. (both coils with coil covers on).------Beings both of these coils have center mounted coil ears--the balance/swing should be comparable (that's with allowing for the weight difference).------To me, the Ultimate coil does feel just a little heavier out there on the end of the stick (as expected)---but not bad.--------I really like the Ultimate coil on both the Etrac & Omega---a good combo!-------Del

I was comparing mine to the AT Pro stock coil Del..there pretty close

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

Keith Southern Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was comparing mine to the AT Pro stock coil
> Del..there pretty close
>
> Keith


Yeah, the AT Pro stock coil is heavier I'm sure Keith.---Wish I had one, I'd weigh it for you.

Curious about the blendy/bleedy capabilities of my MX Sport, I emailed Tom Boykin at Whites for some clarification regarding the Reject Volume option and how it might affect the bleed through of good targets adjacent to rejected targets.

As a furtherance of this ongoing discussion regarding blendy/bleedy audio, I am submitting my remarks to Tom and his reply to me. Here they are:

-------------------------

To Tom:

This option (RejVol) STILL is not in user manual. Shouldn’t it be?

A question about rejvol and target rejection on the MXS:

There is discussion about various approaches to audio reporting on detectors. Some use a snapshot approach where an audio signal generated by one target during a swing might be held for a period of time (the snapshot) and keep the audio generated from a closely adjacent target from being reported (because it occurred during the timeframe of the previous snapshot).

More recently, there has been a swing toward an open audio gate approach where the audio is real time, let’s say, so that two closely adjacent targets might each report audibly, but so closely in succession that they seem to be a single report, but blended in their sound frequencies. Some highly skilled detectorists refer to this as “blended audio” or as the audio being “blendy.”

Another term is “bleedy” audio, referring to the ability of some detectors to allow the audio from one target to bleed through while muting or chopping the simultaneous audio signal from a rejected target that is over the good target. IOW, it is possible, using a detector with bleedy audio, to hear a good target bleed through the muted or chopped audio of the rejected (bad) target.

My question is this: If rejvol permits audio signals from rejected targets to be heard, is it possible that signals from good targets under the rejected target can also be heard?

I referenced this very thread to Tom ( as my understanding of detecting physics is certainly limited).

Tom's reply to me:

We should amend the User Manual, Rej Vol was a late addition to the detector to address exactly the issue you are asking about.

The MX Sport has a fast recovery speed, but if it is TOO fast on a machine you will lose faint signals. Think of a Trime or very deep button. With a real-time audio response you won't even hear it as the signal length is too short for normal swing speed. That's why hunting in All-Metal requires such a patient approach. The way most detectors deal with this is in DISC mode they will make the tone "hang" for a few milliseconds to aid in target acquisition.

With Reject Volume you can start to unmask close targets. One of our field testers was able to hear a group of targets in a coin spill he dug up with his MX Sport.

A great test for this is to put a small nail next to and then on top of a quarter. Try turning the nail different orientations to see if the detector chirps on both the nail AND the quarter. You can also use this test to set your REJ VOL.

---------------------------

I carried the MXS on a relic hunt yesterday and before I began detecting, I placed a brass button on the ground with a rusted square nail laying over it. With RejVol at 40, I swung over the button and nail and heard both of them. I varied the SAT between 0 and 8 (8 being full-on and designated as "hypersat"). The higher the SAT, the less I heard the nail while not affecting the signal from the button. At a SAT of 8, there was no sound from the nail, just the signal from the brass button.
There is more testing, such as this exercise, to be done to better understand the effect of the RejVol setting on the bleed through of the good target. I believe it will be shown that the setting of RejVol has no effect on the volume or sound quality of the good target signal.

I believe the foregoing remarks show that the MXS is a good performer when it comes to having bleedy audio. And I trust that some of you will find this post helpful.

Wayne

Pleasant Garden, NC
AT Max, Nokta Impact, MX Sport, Nokta FORS Relic, GPX 4800, Infinium, Racer, Deus, F75SE, Nautilus DMC II (order of acquisition, last to first)

Does an archeologist argue with a plow? A bureaucrat with a bulldozer?

The MXT will Blend signals producing a MID Tone depending on which mode you use and which Sub-Mode you use, Also if there is a nail sitting over a coin North South it will give you a high tone and east west it will give an Iron sound PLUS a blended sound but you need to select Iron ID or it will respond to the two targets giving either a high low or a low high signal depending which target the coil passes over first or you can blank the Iron completely and if a coin is next to the Iron depending which way the Iron is facing it will either give a high tone on the coin or blank the Iron and blend them again and give you a Mid Tone and variants of all the above depending what settings you are using.

John.