Racer 2 problems

The Racer 2 is really noisy unless I have the sensitivity set low. Using beach mode it runs the quietest for me, and I can use higher sensitivity.
One thing I don't like is on the Racer 2 I have dug more bigger pieces of scrap iron that give a good sound and number, than the DFX, F75 LTD and AT PRO all put together.

"Give it a bit more time. There's plenty of Tips & Tricks on this site to help to understand it. You are right though - a lot of iron sounds can be heard but the recovery is so quick the non-ferrous signals can be 'un masked' also. But the trick with the R2 is [ how to interpret the sounds ]

Here's a quote from one of my Field Tests that may help?

Field Test Racer 2

quote:Racer 2 was used over a variety of soils ranging from grass pasture with heavy deep clay to stubble fields where crops had been cut and removed and the soil surface was loose and wet, and many other known test sites were visited as well as some new permissions.
It behaved reasonably well everywhere. Ground balanced very easily: I like the ‘bleep’ when it ground balances: push the trigger forward for GB

The new coil is perfect as it can be kept really low with a smooth sweep almost all of the time. I found dozens of different targets ranging from iron to foil to lead to brass, bronze, copper, silver.
Iron rejection is definitely improved over the original Racer. However, one still “hears” a lot even employing the new IRON AUDIO feature.
I remained fooled by larger iron and by this I refer to long straight pieces for example 20cms in length, 7cms wide by about half a centimetre thick.
Similarly, curved pieces were often retrieved from ‘good signals’ sized about 12cms long and around 7cms in diameter.
A good quality headphone will ensure you hear all the signals properly. I got lucky because I have a’ very good set of “Troy” headphones. With these on I could hear full harmonics and echoes unlike anything heard before and in some instances could tell the good from the bad. So I’d recommend the Racer 2 user would experiment with different headphones to find one that suits their own individual hearing range.
There are some audio clues to be heard while working in Three Tone as this mode provides a better spread of tones but remember Two Tone is deeper.
It displayed very good unmasking one example being I found a small button on the surface but an iron sound was heard too and when dug there was a large piece of iron 4” beneath the soil. Sometimes after a coin was found the area was checked again and iron sounds heard from nearby. Great pin pointing! By volume - designed that way with the centre of the coil as the sweet spot: pull trigger to PP" End quote:
© Desi Dunne



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/19/2016 10:08AM by Des D.

deadeye Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Racer 2 is really noisy unless I have the
> sensitivity set low. Using beach mode it runs the
> quietest for me, and I can use higher
> sensitivity.
> One thing I don't like is on the Racer 2 I have
> dug more bigger pieces of scrap iron that give a
> good sound and number, than the DFX, F75 LTD and
> AT PRO all put together.


You might have a faulty coil?
I was able to run mine near max in 3-4 bar soil, but i did get a lot of false high tones off the edge of iron which can fool you, or more so in my case coke, it feckin loved the stuff!

Bet it's the coil. Mine would have overload problems to the point the only way it could be used was beach mode also.

Tried Frequency shift and raising ID filter a little more ?

ghound Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> deadeye Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The Racer 2 is really noisy unless I have the
> > sensitivity set low. Using beach mode it runs
> the
> > quietest for me, and I can use higher
> > sensitivity.
> > One thing I don't like is on the Racer 2 I
> have
> > dug more bigger pieces of scrap iron that give
> a
> > good sound and number, than the DFX, F75 LTD
> and
> > AT PRO all put together.
>
>
> You might have a faulty coil?
> I was able to run mine near max in 3-4 bar soil,
> but i did get a lot of false high tones off the
> edge of iron which can fool you, or more so in my
> case coke, it feckin loved the stuff!

Can you tell me what exactly is coke?

@88junior,Coke is what we find alot of here in the UK and other countries as well i guess,its when steam ploughs use too be used for either threshing or infact any farm machinery use,when they emptied the fireboxes at either the beginning or the end of the day they just use to tip it on the soil,and it fools detectors giving out a strong dig me signal.

Can be some what annoying/frustrating when you get a really lovely signal and then dig down and then just find its a bit of waste product from the steam age,sometimes you can identify the audio response but for the most part we just have too accept it.Some fields have alot of 'Coke' on the land i guess depending on how wealthy the land owner was and how many traction engines he had for steam ploughing which made made horses redundant before tractors as well are all familiar with today came along.

Coal clinkers in the U.S. The give good signals. Mostly one way, though.

Definitely try a different coil if you have one available.

Also the R2 has adjustable iron audio, and I find that it works really well at 2, others even lower it as much as 1. When I'm detecting an iron infested site, I still want to hear it so I can guage the site layout, but I don't want it to cause audio fatigue, so I find that iron audio at level 2 works well for me.

Aside from that, it's not typically a noisy machine unless your coils is bad, settings are wrong, or your testing it in an area with EMI issues.

Maybe a bad coil try another one if you have one

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

Turn the ID Filter up to about 3 or 4 and it will calm down..

The beach mode is the quietest because the ID Filer is at 10..

Try regular 2 tone and run the ID filter up some and see if it gets quite

On zero ID Filter the unit is very noisy ..

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2016 03:38AM by Keith Southern.

Quote
ghound
You might have a faulty coil?

Possibly, but I don't think that's the cause. Not knowing the settings used makes it more difficult to offer help on the matter of instability.

Quote
ghound
I was able to run mine near max in 3-4 bar soil, but i did get a lot of false high tones off the edge of iron which can fool you

Without any metal target present, ferrous or non-ferrous, and with a search coil held away from the ground, a detector is more susceptible to EMI issues.

With a search coil held at a proper coil search height of ±2" and after ground balancing, and without any detectable target close by except for the ground matrix, a detector can be Ground Balanced and usually be operated w/o EMI issues it might have if the coil was not close to the ground. Also, the amount of Discrimination used can also have an effect on letting 'noise' pass along, if the rejection is set very low. Then we have to remember that differed modes have different initial gain levels or ranges. The 2-Tone mode is more sensitive than 3-Tone mode, so it might have more EMI problems at a similar Gain setting used for 3-Tone mode.

My saved start-up Gain settings for those two modes is set high, and 90% of the time or more I can search at those Gain levels, and when called for, I reduce the Gain just enough to regain stability. I have my 2-Tne Gain set at '90' and 3-Tone mode is set at '99' and most places I search have ample iron mineralized ground producing some mid-range to high MMI readings. Often I have to reduce the Gain a little when I do venture into some milder good ground, which is also pretty common.

I guess we hear the term 'false signal' or 'false response' quite often, but many times I don't think a lot of hobbyists understand what a true 'false signal' really means. For example, most of the modern pry-tabs off of beverage cans have a TID very similar to the US 5¢ coin, and some people say the tabs give a "false response" because they display indicates a desired coin. But wait, doesn't that also mean that if you get a Nickel read-out it could be a "false signal" that is supposed to be a tab?

There are many objects out there that are 'detectable' because man made them or had an influence on what they are, and the audio and visual responses are not always going to be what we think they should be or what we desire. One example might be a 14K gold wedding band. You can have two identical rings the same size and thickness and allow, but the shape could be just mildly altered. One ring can be complete and laying flat-on-the-ground, and just a foot away laying flat-on-the-ground it the identical gold ring, and the only difference is that the second ring has the very small separation from a cut in the band. They will not read the same, therefore one of those rings is producing a '"false signal" because it isn't reading like the completed ring, or responding the way we might like it to. But it really isn't a :false' signal, it is just a signal based upon the object's current level of conductivity.

Ferrous targets are no different. Man made things out of ferrous material and they generally will respond as expected, unless man alters their level of conductivity. Take this example which I have used in seminars for over thirty-five years, or shown customer I had before that;

Find a metal paperclip and make sure it is a ferrous/iron type that sticks to a magnet, and is the bare metal type and not a colorful coated paperclip.

A: • Turn on a detector and set the Discrimination to a minimum setting that will accept and beep on the paperclip, if it adjusts that low. If the detector has a 2-Tone or multi-tone selection to produce a Low Tone audio on iron, wave the paperclip passed the center axis of the search coil and hear the proper, anticipated Low-Tone response. If the detector has a display, notice that it responds in the 'Iron' range on the display.

• Next, slowly increase the Discrimination just to the point where you barely reject the paperclip and notice that it no longer produces a response at that setting. Note what that setting is, to just barely reject the paperclip.


B: • Now, open the paperclip up and make it as straight as you can. Just an elongated piece of iron/ferrous metal. The same piece you started with that man made and formed into a paperclip, and YOU have now fashioned into a small straight piece that looks like a section of wire. Again, with the Discrimination set at the very minimum setting to accept all metal targets and using a 2-Tone or more function to hear a Low-Tone for Ferrous and High-Tone for non-ferrous, do the following:

• Hold the straight-shaped paperclip so it is about 2" or more away from the search coil, and pointing one end toward the search coil (as if it were a nail to be driven into the center of the coil) move it back-and-forth passing the center axis of the search coil. You should hear a Low-Tone iron audio.

• Next, continue to wave the straight paperclip as I just described, 'pointing' at the coil as you it passes the center of the coil, and very slowly increase the Discrimination level to where it just barely rejects the paper clip in this straightened configuration and 'pointing' towards the coil as it passes. Just barely reject it.

• Next, use the same paperclip you are holding, and do not change any settings on the detector. The Disc. should be set where it just barely rejected the paperclip when waved passed the coil's center axis and with one end 'pointing' toward the coil. This time, however, turn the straightened paperclip as if it were laying on top of the ground, but move it passed the coil as if sweeping across it 'crosswise'. Listen to hear if there is a 'beep' or not, but do NOT change the Discrimination level. Once you have compared this reshaped paperclip in that orientation to the search coil, turn the object 90° and wave it passed the coil at about 2" to 3" as if you were sweeping the coil across it lengthwise. Note any audio response or not.

Using this one elongated piece of iron/ferrous that you reshaped from a paperclip, you might have heard a response from one or two different positions compared to when the object was rejected when held in an 'on-end' position. If so, then one could conclude that there was "falsing" because you still got the iron audio Tone from one orientation or two even though one or two others had the same sample rejected.


C: • Again we are using the very same paperclip, but this time, bend it into a 'U' shape and wave it passed the search coil as-if it were laying flat on the ground. Note the audio Tone ID and visual TID read-out. It should be as anticipated with a Low-Tone and visual indication that the object is iron.


D: • Okay, now we get to one final use of this test sample, made from material that humans processed, and that material was used by other humans to form into a useful Paperclip. Then another human, YOU, reshaped that same piece of iron/ferrous material into a straight, wire-like shape and tested it to confirm with your detector that it did, in fact, produce a 'proper' Low-Tone iron Audio and alerted you with an Iron range read-out on the target ID display.

Then YOU formed it into a horseshoe like 'U' shaped and, again, waved the sample passed the coil's center axis and confirmed that the iron/ferrous paperclip was, I-fact, producing a Low-Tone audio and confirming iron range visual response.

• So now the last adjustment you are going to do is to bend the tips of both ends of the 'U' shaped paperclip to form them into little connecting hooks, then bend the paperclip into a circle, an 'O' shape, and hook the two bent ends together to form a completed circular shape with the ends connected. Same material, same paperclip, but man .. YOU .. have now changed things up due to the shape of the object. Wave this test piece passed the center axis of the search coil as if it were laying on the ground and note both the audio and visual response from the magnetic, ferrous/iron object.

Straight nails, Vs bent nails, Vs nails with larger or abrupt angled heads, Vs thin nails or thick/fat nails Vs short nails or long nails. You get the hint, just nails, alone can cause a lot of "false" responses depending upon shape, content, position in the ground, depth, etc.

Another very annoying group of ferrous objects include the crown type or older crimped-on bottle caps, round washers, and my biggest enemy, rusty tin and other similar flat iron or sheet iron junk. Many average Coin Hunters seldom deal with scattered rusty tin that is frequently encountered by avid Relic Hunters around old town sites, camp sites, home sites, stage stops and railroad sidings or depot stops, and the lost goes on. When they do, they often accuse the detector for producing "false responses" or "false signals," but that's not the case.

The 'flat iron' type debris mentioned, due partially to the shape and how detectors work and their influence on an EMF, can cause an upscale TID read-out. It might be considered a "false signal" but usually it isn't quite that bad, depending upon the coil size and type used, the settings used, and how the object is encountered. Quiet often, if using a Two-Tone or other multi-Tone option that provides a lower audio tone for most iron targets, you will usually get a double tone response from the 'flat iron' or 'sheet iron' type trash.

With my CoRe, Relic and Racer 2, when I am hunting sites with a lot of rusty tin and similar ferrous trash, I prefer to use the smaller coils and hunt in the 3-Tone search mode. The way these models handle rusty tin (flat iron or sheet iron) lets us hear a hint of a Lower Tone Iron Audio just before, just after or both when we sweep the coil directly across this pesky kind of target. Yes, the Higher Tone and upscale visual TID response can be there, but it isn't a "false response,' but simply a correct response due to the shape of the metal object and how it effects the EMF, BUT it also usually shows itself with the accompanying Low-Tone audio in association with it.

Don't forget, too, that the visual read-out on these troubling targets often gets more unstable and jumpier than it would be with a clean, clear signal from a non-ferrous target. Metal detecting is a great outdoor recreation and it calls upon each of us to learn how to get the most out of our equipment, and know what to expect when we encounter problem targets. Iron has a different effect on an electro-magnetic field that a same size and shape non-iron target, and that's just a simple fact. Therefore, problem iron conditions can effect the final response, audibly and/or visually, and this is a naturally occurring phenomena and not necessarily a "false" response.

Your comment that responses off the edge of, or associated with, some iron objects is quite correct, and that can easily be noted by tinkering with IOA (there's another new term for Iron Object Altering) like I instructed using a common iron paperclip. Sadly, some ferrous junk is already shaped to annoy us without our help, such as bottle caps and .....

Quote
ghound
... or more so in my case coke, it feckin loved the stuff!

Another interesting challenge we can face at many old sites ois 'coke' (discarded burned coal) which, by its nature, has some conductivite properties about it, yet to many hobbyists unfamiliar with it, the objects kind of looks like a rock at a casual glance. I also have quite a few places I hunt that have coke in areas that does take a little more patience on my part to be persistent at methodically working the area to deal with it.

Deadeye, you have received some very good comment so far in this thread, and I agree with Keith and Brian and others that even though a bad coil could be part of the problem, and that can be checked by trying a different search coil. Buy making use of the Iron Audio Volume control, which is set at '2' on all my Racer 2 Discriminate modes. Also, the ID Filter, aka Discrimination, can be adjusted very low and using a setting of maybe '3' like I do, will help reject or control the possible false signals from some challenging ground environments, such as hot rocks, wet alkaline saltiness, and some very, very low reading bits of trash.

Don't forget to Ground Balance at a site before hunting, and if it is difficult to get a real accurate GB due to metal discards at a site, then use the default '90' GB setting, or better yet get a GB as close as possible but, if anything, just very slightly positive.

Learn and master the Racer 2. It is definitely one of the best detectors available on the market today.

Monte

"Phew! A great read Monte. Well said"

I used show my Customers the same 'trick' as you described using a length of wire. Straight, U shaped and a perfect circle which always generated a Positive signal with Positive ID's
In other orientations the responses were usually negative"

Des D

Thanks Monty thats a good read and makes good sense.
But it doesn't solve the issue i had regarding a high tone off the edge of iron.
In other words the grunt and accompanying high tone off the edge of some iron sounded too similar to the grunt and accompanying high tone from iron and co-located non ferrous objects.
Couple that with the 3-4 bar ground and it spelt problems if the items were over 5 or 6" deep as the TID was totally unreliable in this type ground beyond that depth, and depth at best was in the 9" region so to drastically drop gain was not a favoured option if targets are deep, or incase you wandered over a less mineralised patch.
And the issue with coke, at depth it just could not be ID properly by audio or by screen TID
Eg on one of my old site permissions, a small village from 1200's where you can imagine the tens of thousands of iron+coke signals, so digging these signals very quickly becomes old.
There's no doubt the Racer2 in good soil is probably a very good performer, and it suits many a detectorist and their hunting grounds, personally i wouldn't rate it as highly as yourself as 'one of the best detectors available today' well certainly not for my own hunting grounds as my current detector easily out performs it in the areas I've just outlined.
Hopefully the impact will be a further advancement and i can buy back into the Makro/Nokta detectors.

Ghound,

It's the same old story - we, as detectorists are always seeking 'the perfect machine'. (the Silver Bullet if you will? If you want that drink "Coors Light")
It hasn't been invented yet and probably never will? I don't believe the "Impact" will solve everyone's demands / requirements / expectations: it will be 'just another detector'.
For the money the "Racer 2" is a very good detector and light-years ahead of technology of 10, 20 years ago and Top End units costing over the 1000 mark.
I'd hazard a bet that the "Racer 2" will / would / does out-perform [ your other machines] in other hunt scenarios?

Des D

Des D Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ghound,
>
> It's the same old story - we, as detectorists are
> always seeking 'the perfect machine'. (the Silver
> Bullet if you will? If you want that drink "Coors
> Light")
> It hasn't been invented yet and probably never
> will? I don't believe the "Impact" will solve
> everyone's demands / requirements / expectations:
> it will be 'just another detector'.
> For the money the "Racer 2" is a very good
> detector and light-years ahead of technology of
> 10, 20 years ago and Top End units costing over
> the 1000 mark.
> I'd hazard a bet that the "Racer 2" will / would /
> does out-perform [ your other machines] in other
> hunt scenarios?
>
> Des D

Yes Des, they all have strengths and weakness and i did enjoy using the racer, i suspose it did fit somewhere in the spectrum.
It didn't pick up deep coins on clean pasture behind the etrac, and it made me dig more coke and iron as above in the really hard areas, but it done well inbetween. I don't do parks as such but i did attend a rally at one with the R2 and it found me a nice silver hammered, totally unexpected.
If i had 0-1 bar soil I'd still have it as it would get to stretch it's legs depth wise and no doubt be a top performer and as you say it is technically advanced, but it has to get down deep enough to the targets to use it's advanced tech which it doesn't do in my ground.

And just on another note about the Impact, i know Makro/Nokta are real good at comunication and working with their customers.
I really hope that they have sent the Impact to at least a few testers with poor soil, i know Keith showed the R2 on his deep dimes, and scannerguy on youtube but i had already got my R2 by then, but if i had seen them videos first i wouldn't have purchased.
Sure i want to see an air test, but i would want to see it in a test garden, I'd want to see it in a real hunt, see it ground balanced and shown the mineral reading, see it dig some real targets, hear the audio and see the depth just like Ziggy Jinks does, but all of this in 3-4 bar soil.

Interestingly last weekend when Tom and I were detecting, I noticed that his trash count was significantly higher then mine. He was using his trusty Explorer2 that he knows well, and I had the Racer2. Not saying I didn't dig any trash, certainly I had my fair share, but I seemed to dig a lot less iron, pull tabs and crown caps (I though minelabs were impervious to crown caps?).

I did chase a lot of iffy targets that turned out to be keepers as the soil was pretty funky there, so you had to pay extra attention to the audio reports and investigate anything that made a sound. Slows you down, and I suspect the FBS technology had a distinct advantage at this site vs a VLF machine. I actually tried detecting in Beach mode for a bit, but have found that 2-tone mode isn't my cup of tea.

ghound Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And just on another note about the Impact, i know
> Makro/Nokta are real good at comunication and
> working with their customers.
> I really hope that they have sent the Impact to at
> least a few testers with poor soil, i know Keith
> showed the R2 on his deep dimes, and scannerguy on
> youtube but i had already got my R2 by then, but
> if i had seen them videos first i wouldn't have
> purchased.
> Sure i want to see an air test, but i would want
> to see it in a test garden, I'd want to see it in
> a real hunt, see it ground balanced and shown the
> mineral reading, see it dig some real targets,
> hear the audio and see the depth just like Ziggy
> Jinks does, but all of this in 3-4 bar soil.


Hello.
We have not sent any test units out yet just to let you know but soon hopefully.
Can you name somebody who has poor soil?

I think Keith's grounds hot, as for live hunts in the UK Aaron (ziggy jinks) does a good honest video, im sure there's others in various countries/areas that would love to test it out.

Nokta Detectors Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ghound Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > And just on another note about the Impact, i
> know
> > Makro/Nokta are real good at comunication and
> > working with their customers.
> > I really hope that they have sent the Impact to
> at
> > least a few testers with poor soil, i know
> Keith
> > showed the R2 on his deep dimes, and scannerguy
> on
> > youtube but i had already got my R2 by then,
> but
> > if i had seen them videos first i wouldn't have
> > purchased.
> > Sure i want to see an air test, but i would
> want
> > to see it in a test garden, I'd want to see it
> in
> > a real hunt, see it ground balanced and shown
> the
> > mineral reading, see it dig some real targets,
> > hear the audio and see the depth just like
> Ziggy
> > Jinks does, but all of this in 3-4 bar soil.
>
>
> Hello.
> We have not sent any test units out yet just to
> let you know but soon hopefully.
> Can you name somebody who has poor soil?


Brian (Cal_cobra)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2016 12:09PM by D&P-OR.

Nokta Detectors Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ghound Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > And just on another note about the Impact, i
> know
> > Makro/Nokta are real good at comunication and
> > working with their customers.
> > I really hope that they have sent the Impact to
> at
> > least a few testers with poor soil, i know
> Keith
> > showed the R2 on his deep dimes, and scannerguy
> on
> > youtube but i had already got my R2 by then,
> but
> > if i had seen them videos first i wouldn't have
> > purchased.
> > Sure i want to see an air test, but i would
> want
> > to see it in a test garden, I'd want to see it
> in
> > a real hunt, see it ground balanced and shown
> the
> > mineral reading, see it dig some real targets,
> > hear the audio and see the depth just like
> Ziggy
> > Jinks does, but all of this in 3-4 bar soil.
>
>
> Hello.
> We have not sent any test units out yet just to
> let you know but soon hopefully.
> Can you name somebody who has poor soil?

I have bad to severely mineralized dirt.

To Cal Cobra: Like you, I have used my Racer 2, as well as the CoRe and Relic, and hunted sites where my friends who used a CTX 3030 and Explorer II's had a bigger trash collection than I did. At those places I also found more lower-conductive keepers, and certainly more smaller-size targets of interest than they did. Most of that ground we searched had a Ground Phase read-out of '78' to '84' and a minimum of 3 bares in MMI.

To ghound: Sorry to hear things didn't seem to work for you and your concerns about 'bad ground.' Where I live and hunt the most, 'bad ground' is just something we have to deal with every day. Four of the ghost towns and two encampments were from Eastern Oregon's gold mining era and can be a definite challenge when it comes to 'bad ground.' I keep a few challenging rocks on-hand and use them when bench testing or evaluating detectors and in my seminars to show Ground Balance challenges many detectors have that people bring to learn about.

These have a GB read-out of '83', '84' and '86', show a vey high MMI response .... and I still hit more rocks and intense patches of broken-up rock that fall even higher into the '86' and+ range. The general ground mineral make-up of these areas is still mostly '78' to '82' range material that also has a higher MMI read-out. I am looking forward to the Impact to see how the lower 5 kHs operating range can handle those bad-ground conditions where I still have been achieving very good performance from the 15 kHz CoRe, 19 kHz Relic and the 14 kHz Racer 2 and recovered Chinese cash coins and Indian Head cents, old spoons, military coat buttons that date to the 1865 production design, .44 Henry cartridge cases, spent bullets, and other lost or discarded objects from that era of activity (1863 to 1873) in average-depth positions of sub-surface to 5", and know these detectors will hit on deeper targets, if they happen to be there but the ground make-up does restrict some causes for ground disturbance and target displacement.

I have been using my Racer 2 so far this this month to date in more traditional Coin Hunting environments with a standard-size 7X11 DD coil, and many of the older parks and other typical places I have been working still have a Ground Phase response in the '77' to '79' range and it's not uncommon for areas of these places to reflect 2, 3 or even 4 bars of MMI. Even in these Coin Hunting environment the Racer 2 and I are experiencing very good performance, and the audio Tone response and visual Target ID read-outs have matched or bettered other models that have been working those same areas. Even a couple of competitive brands/model that I hold a high regard for in these hunting applications.

Still, as Des D and others have commented, there isn't 'perfect' detector made that does everything we would like them to do splendidly and at amazing depth of detection. Bad ground, challenging target make-up and/or orientation in the ground to the coil, settings used and the operator's presentation of the search coil will all have an influence on the end performance we will achieve. Since there isn't a perfect detector out there, I like to keep my personal arsenal outfitted with the best-of-the-best models that satisfy my wants and needs. I do sometimes travel to locations with more favorable ground to hunt, but that is seldom with a GP less than about '67' to '71' that still sometimes have a higher iron mineral content, but have no concerns about performance with the Racer 2 and other units in my personal detector battery.

Monte

'in average-depth positions of sub-surface to 5"

Monte, it would be interesting to see your view on the Impact and it's finer detail, surface to 5" targets are long gone in my area so the info you gleen on these targets will probably be of little benefit to myself though im sure it will for guys who hunt similar areas, but i would have thought that role was well catered for with the relic and R2?

I'm currently using a 2 freq 8khz-18khz and be more interested in the 10" coil sizes and how the frequencies work at depth on small hammered silver.
How it ID's coke, how it separates small odd shape iron from non ferrous at 8"+ depth in poor ground etc
I think sending out a few detectors to the hardcore detectorist is a brave move from Nokta, but it will give the potential customers more confidence i feel even moreso than say a magazine doing a soft test so as they can run a comp for a free detector etc sponsored metal detector tests are something i take with a pinch of salt!

Nokta Detectors Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ghound Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > And just on another note about the Impact, i
> know
> > Makro/Nokta are real good at comunication and
> > working with their customers.
> > I really hope that they have sent the Impact to
> at
> > least a few testers with poor soil, i know
> Keith
> > showed the R2 on his deep dimes, and scannerguy
> on
> > youtube but i had already got my R2 by then,
> but
> > if i had seen them videos first i wouldn't have
> > purchased.
> > Sure i want to see an air test, but i would
> want
> > to see it in a test garden, I'd want to see it
> in
> > a real hunt, see it ground balanced and shown
> the
> > mineral reading, see it dig some real targets,
> > hear the audio and see the depth just like
> Ziggy
> > Jinks does, but all of this in 3-4 bar soil.
>
>
> Hello.
> We have not sent any test units out yet just to
> let you know but soon hopefully.
> Can you name somebody who has poor soil?

I have sites with extremely bad dirt - mineralized, black sand beaches, alkali desert, and red volcanic dirt.

Ok if I set the id filter higher and get it to run smoother, that still does not explain why it gives a good tone and id on big pieces of scrap iron.
An axe head and pieces steel 9 1/2 x 1 x1/2 inch, 10x1 1/2x1/4 or a steel ring 7x4 inch 1 inch thick read as a coin.

deadeye Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok if I set the id filter higher and get it to run
> smoother, that still does not explain why it gives
> a good tone and id on big pieces of scrap iron.
> An axe head and pieces steel 9 1/2 x 1 x1/2 inch,
> 10x1 1/2x1/4 or a steel ring 7x4 inch 1 inch thick
> read as a coin.

If you are using a DD Coil on it then that is why because they love flat Iron, Musketeer Advantage did the same and my MXT does do it sometimes when I use a DD on rare occasions but If I fit a concentric coil then there is little chance of digging any Iron 95-98% of the time,

Try putting a Concentric Coil on it and see if that sharpens things up for you.

Good Luck.

John.

Quote
deadeye
Ok if I set the id filter higher and get it to run smoother, that still does not explain why it gives a good tone and id on big pieces of scrap iron.

Yes, using a higher ID Filter (Discrimination) setting can help smooth out the audio and reject some noises from challenging ground and many unwanted trash targets, naturally sacrificing some lower-conductive desired objects. But there are metal detectors and the generated EMF is going to be influenced by a metal targets make-up (ferrous or non-ferrous in nature), but also by the size and shape and orientation to the search coil, and there's nothing we can do about that.

And your reference to: "An axe head and pieces steel 9½x1x½ inch, or a 10x1½x¼ inch or a steel/iron ring 7x4 inch and 1 inch thick" can all 'read' similar to some coins or other desired targets. Sometimes objects can be discriminated better by some circuitry designs than others. Sometimes the search coil selection can be important and , quite often, a Double-D design will be more challenged by ferrous trash than most concentric designed search coils.

As Des D. mentioned above and I have done the same, there is no such thing as a 'perfect' metal detector. Successful metal detect6ing is a blending of using the best detectors and settings for site conditions, selecting and using the best coil to tackle those challenges, and the knowledge and skill of the operator gained over an ample period of active metal detecting.

Also, as I referred to in my post above and the use of a simple iron paperclip and reshaping it, plus comparison the rejection abilities based upon the target's orientation to the search coil, there are just a lot of variables involved that relate to a target's level of conductivity. Size and shape of iron targets, such as those you describe are in the group of things that can annoy us. A 7"x4"x½" iron/steel ring is a prime example because those are the same sets of problems we associate with an iron washer or pry-off crown cap type bottle cap. Their size and shape enhances their more conductive response.

Can you work around it? Yes. Again, nothing is perfect, but you get the 'coin like' read-out when you sweep directly across these problem targets, and you can get a 'proper' iron-type audio and visual response if you use EPR and just off-sweep the target. A 'simple' technique I started using with the old Compass TR's in '71 and since then with virtually every detector I have owned. Nothing perfect, but it is a skill or technique that has helped be bypass a lot of common ferrous junk in all sots of ground mineral conditions, from neutral Florida beaches to mellow ground in Texas and Oklahoma and elsewhere, and especially in the higher mineralized ground I hunt in most places I go in Utah, Oregon, Nevada, Wyoming and elsewhere in the western US.

Monte

Monte Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To Cal Cobra: Like you, I have used my Racer 2, as
> well as the CoRe and Relic, and hunted sites where
> my friends who used a CTX 3030 and Explorer II's
> had a bigger trash collection than I did. At
> those places I also found more lower-conductive
> keepers, and certainly more smaller-size targets
> of interest than they did. Most of that ground we
> searched had a Ground Phase read-out of '78' to
> '84' and a minimum of 3 bares in MMI.
>
> To ghound: Sorry to hear things didn't seem to
> work for you and your concerns about 'bad ground.'
> Where I live and hunt the most, 'bad ground' is
> just something we have to deal with every day.
> Four of the ghost towns and two encampments were
> from Eastern Oregon's gold mining era and can be a
> definite challenge when it comes to 'bad ground.'
> I keep a few challenging rocks on-hand and use
> them when bench testing or evaluating detectors
> and in my seminars to show Ground Balance
> challenges many detectors have that people bring
> to learn about.
>
> These have a GB read-out of '83', '84' and '86',
> show a vey high MMI response .... and I still hit
> more rocks and intense patches of broken-up rock
> that fall even higher into the '86' and+ range.
> The general ground mineral make-up of these areas
> is still mostly '78' to '82' range material that
> also has a higher MMI read-out. I am looking
> forward to the Impact to see how the lower 5 kHs
> operating range can handle those bad-ground
> conditions where I still have been achieving very
> good performance from the 15 kHz CoRe, 19 kHz
> Relic and the 14 kHz Racer 2 and recovered Chinese
> cash coins and Indian Head cents, old spoons,
> military coat buttons that date to the 1865
> production design, .44 Henry cartridge cases,
> spent bullets, and other lost or discarded objects
> from that era of activity (1863 to 1873) in
> average-depth positions of sub-surface to 5", and
> know these detectors will hit on deeper targets,
> if they happen to be there but the ground make-up
> does restrict some causes for ground disturbance
> and target displacement.
>
> I have been using my Racer 2 so far this this
> month to date in more traditional Coin Hunting
> environments with a standard-size 7X11 DD coil,
> and many of the older parks and other typical
> places I have been working still have a Ground
> Phase response in the '77' to '79' range and it's
> not uncommon for areas of these places to reflect
> 2, 3 or even 4 bars of MMI. Even in these Coin
> Hunting environment the Racer 2 and I are
> experiencing very good performance, and the audio
> Tone response and visual Target ID read-outs have
> matched or bettered other models that have been
> working those same areas. Even a couple of
> competitive brands/model that I hold a high regard
> for in these hunting applications.
>
> Still, as Des D and others have commented, there
> isn't 'perfect' detector made that does
> everything we would like them to do splendidly and
> at amazing depth of detection. Bad ground,
> challenging target make-up and/or orientation in
> the ground to the coil, settings used and the
> operator's presentation of the search coil will
> all have an influence on the end performance we
> will achieve. Since there isn't a perfect
> detector out there, I like to keep my personal
> arsenal outfitted with the best-of-the-best models
> that satisfy my wants and needs. I do sometimes
> travel to locations with more favorable ground to
> hunt, but that is seldom with a GP less than about
> '67' to '71' that still sometimes have a higher
> iron mineral content, but have no concerns about
> performance with the Racer 2 and other units in my
> personal detector battery.
>
> Monte

Monte------You keep mentioning over & over "in my seminars".-----When was the last one you had and when are you going to have the next one?-----Patsy & I might try to attend if we ae in/close to the area.--------Del

Monte Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> And your reference to: "An axe head and pieces
> steel 9½x1x½ inch, or a 10x1½x¼ inch or a
> steel/iron ring 7x4 inch and 1 inch thick" can all
> 'read' similar to some coins or other desired
> targets. Sometimes objects can be discriminated
> better by some circuitry designs than others.
> Sometimes the search coil selection can be
> important and , quite often, a Double-D design
> will be more challenged by ferrous trash than most
> concentric designed search coils.
> Monte

Yep, that's what I said earlier, This is one task Concentrics do very well, even using a 12" Concentric in a junk filled site will still find the Good gear, Plough blades are a problem at times but mostly I don't dig much Iron If Any.

John.