And By this I can envision the use of MDA (Multi Dimensional Audio)

We are already seeing Audio becoming more and more telling about targets but we will see AUDIO paint us a Sonic picture like never before..

Imagine as you swing the coil and there's a iron nail coming in from the right as coil approaches a low growl starts in the left like way off in the distance then becomes stronger in the right ear then seems to be in the middle of your head and then the reverse of right ear happens in the left ear as it tails off again...the whole report you hear should tell you if its a deep nail or shallow nail or even small or big all in your minds eye

BUT that's not all imagine there's other targets int there too..there's a mid tone type report about the time the target is strong in on the right side but it seems to be forward of that low tone..Yes I say forward..when we are dealing with MDA things will become Spatial in our minds eye.....

Like setting in a room and hearing the sounds from behind you in front of you above and even below ..a pin drop makes a sound a clock makes a sound on the wall ticking..all this is spatial to us..I can see that recreated to us in MDA and even to a point clearer and cleaner as it will be inside of headphones..Imagine hearing iron nails and hearing other non ferrous targets mixed in with those nails as a coil passes over the hodgepodge,,,but imagine it all making sense to you in your minds eye...I just heard a high high silver tone deeper and weaker than the iron grunt nail fluctuations..and its towards the front of the coil ..move up isolate that tone...the whole time shortening up swings and tightening up that tone.

unlimited tones HZ wise not 2/3/or 99 but full spectrum. audio feedback...


We might be using a different type of resonating device to achieve this but I see it happening..

We have went from AM to FM in detector audio is 3d Audio NEXT??

come on 2017 Where one year closer!!

we ain't heard nothin yet

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2017 06:51PM by Keith Southern.

Agreed

Some already are on their way.

Sometimes I wonder,,,just who decides how a metal detector sounds when being engineered???

I think since we are in a more digital world of sorts,,,,it would behoove manufacturers to get lots of input from lots of different folks--- to include beginner detectorists and even folks who don't detect and never have.

Human ear,,between different folks obviously responds differently to a point.

Just recently I played with a AKA Sorex Pro detector,,,,the audio is possesses is extremely good IMO.
Not fatiguing at all,,like a person is talking to you,,,not a machine.

I think too,,,it is a fair statement,,,,and not to belittle these detectors by no means,,,,,but Fisher F75,, IMO audio lags actual detector performance.

There are others too I'm sure of it,,,even the White's V3i could be improved in this area.

Beep and dig is out,,,,for flagship detectors--- Manufacturers are you reading!!!

It also seems some manufacturers went the confidence meter route for signals,,,,is this really the best route??

I do like your thinking Keith on supposed 3D tone.

Yes we need something tonally,,,to alert us,,,to tell us something is right,,,wrong,,,or somewhere in between,,,,,so we can decide.

The go no go principle when speaking of tone(s),,, again is OUT.

Maybe tones really aren't the way forward either,,,maybe it is actually using colors,,,through visual indications.

LED tech has really moved forward,,,is their a place for it in metal detecting tech??

The TVs seem cheap enough!!

I guess we will have to sit back and see what the wizards of detecting engineering and design come up with.

Happy New Year everyone



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2017 01:37AM by tnsharpshooter.

Grunt=iron

Well hell I've lost all hearing in my left ear in the past 15 months a right ears going fast,son of a ??????

------------"Cz's still bad to the bone".------------
Current machines - cz20 -cz6a -F75 - eurotek pro - gamma 6000 - omega 8000 - goldbug se 29er - and lots'a coils

Sorry Keith - an old "brujo" in El Paso just told me that what you want is against the law - "The Second Law of Thermodynamics". Sadly, he didn't explain what that had to do with your "Dreamie Beepie" - and I had to order 2 books on Amazon to start to figure it out.

I'll get back to you if I figure it out - it had something to do with the maximum achievable signal-to-noise ratio. Maybe by March if I study hard!!!

Your idea of the future of the audio/vocal interface are spot on - ask Amazon, Google, Apple - they are all right in the middle of it.

Except for that - the wise man sends his greetings - and I will add mine - Happy New Year!

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

That would be chaos for my hearing. I enjoy my 5.1 audio system however, for certain movies 2 channel stereo suits me much better. Depends on how good a job the audio engineer did. Get it right it's OK.

Tom

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
In a democracy, it is difficult to win fellow citizens over to your own side, or to build public support to remedy injustices that remain all too real when you fundamentally misunderstand how they see the world.

Always enjoy your posts Keith, sometimes your expertise makes me feel like a minor league lifer struggling to understand a major league HOFer.

But I can envision what you are describing and what a true advancement in detecting it would be. A whole new type of detecting, yet intuitive.

Unmasking at a level previously unimaginable.

Very exciting to consider... .

This all sounds so wonderful and could be the next big thing,but having all these additional tools its still upto the operators skill on what too dig or not,a detector on its own is nothing and you could own or have built the most complicated and most advanced designed detector on the planet with what ever audio you want,but its still the skill set of the operator that produces the magic and not the detector.

So if you buy one of these super duper audio detectors and switch it on,it still does nothing apart from making amazing sounds,give it too a novice or someone who has not been detecting very long and still it does not find items,but put any machine including a entry level one or the super duper one in the hands of a skilled operator and then it becomes that all important magical piece of detecting equipment and then the finds will come,but even with the entry level machine the finds will still appear.

No detector in my mind how ever complicated or how many whistles and bells it has will ever replace the skill or knowledge of a experienced detectorist.

Quote:"No detector in my mind how ever complicated ...... will ever replace the skill or knowledge of a experienced detectorist."
But a good detector in the hands of an experienced detectorist should be better than a more basic one? This would be what manufacturers would hope, anyway, as thoughts like that are what will persuade folks to part with their money.

I've mentioned the use of stereo audio numerous times, on here and on Geotech1. We (just about) all use stereo headphones anyway, it requires nothing more than 1 dollars worth of amplifier on top of what's in a typical modern machine, and there's your detector. The rest is fundamentally software. The tricky bit is working out what 'arrangement' will actually work, you would really need to try it out experimentally.

Experience doesn't increase a metal detector's capabilities on paper.

Actually,,,someone here has said,,,take a Racer 1,,, turn on and ground balance,,go to 2 tone and rock and roll in iron.
Turn the clock back 25 years,,,did such an animal exist??

No fiddling with nail break, etc,,,,just swing and listen.

Minelab FBS/fbs2 has done the same thing when it comes to coin hunting.
Doesa person really need boatloads of experience to dig some rather deep coins????
Don't think so. Common sense that's all.

Remember the books such as Internet for dummies.

Well it seems the metal detector industry is moving in this direction--- not a bad idea either.

The key is for manufacturers to make a product that works,,,,for a more common lay person,,,,,not a mad scientist or anything else.

so seeing with sound that would be interesting..we need something new something that is a game changer

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

Quote:"The key is for manufacturers to make a product that works for a more common lay person, not a mad scientist ...."
I think Keith is likening detectors to a musical instrument like a piano, for example.
A basic Casio synthesiser will allow anyone to press keys and make music.
A basic upright piano will allow skillfull pianists to play great pieces.
And a Steinway Grand will allow a virtuoso to perform spectacular works to appreciative paying audiences.

Just because the Casio exists, doesn't make the Steinway redundant or unwanted.

And back to detectors: There is enough 'information' available in the signals of a detector to viably use them in stereo format. Even single-freq machines have the 'volume' and the 'ID' info, for the target and the ground. When there's two freqs simulataneously (eg. BBS or FISHER CZ ) there's much more to 'play with'.

Plus there are other aspects no-one's considered. 'Pinpoint mode' ie. non-motion operation doesn't have to be dumb. I'm sure your ears could tell you more about the target in this mode, info that regular motion-mode may miss.

tnsharpshooter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Experience doesn't increase a metal detector's cap
> abilities on paper.
>
> Actually,,,someone here has said,,,take a Racer 1,
> ,, turn on and ground balance,,go to 2 tone and ro
> ck and roll in iron.
> Turn the clock back 25 years,,,did such an animal
> exist??
>
> No fiddling with nail break, etc,,,,just swing and
> listen.
>
> Minelab FBS/fbs2 has done the same thing when it c
> omes to coin hunting.
> Doesa person really need boatloads of experience t
> o dig some rather deep coins????
> Don't think so. Common sense that's all.
>
> Remember the books such as Internet for dummies.
>
> Well it seems the metal detector industry is movin
> g in this direction--- not a bad idea either.
>
> The key is for manufacturers to make a product tha
> t works,,,,for a more common lay person,,,,,not a
> mad scientist or anything else.


Except that metal detecting isn't done on paper. I've never used any detector for any significant period of time where I didn't get more proficient with usage.

I'm a proponent of K.I.S.S. detectors.

Never even considered, for instance, anything in White's Spectra/V3 platform. Seven decades on the planet have given me a pretty good perspective on my strengths and weaknesses. Looking at the V3 platform convinced me the learning curve would be a chore, and far from my wheelhouse.

Spacial audio is something I've always connected with, and I can envision doing well with whatever learning curve there would be.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2017 05:22AM by marcomo.

The bottom line I think is,,,about every detector to get the most out of has to be run at the EDGE.

IMO,,a more experienced detectorists will likely not be afraid to do so,,,and are more aware of disadvantages of doing so.

Now,,,newer tech,,,better sounds,,etc,,,,could make this running on EDGE less chancy,,more pleasant overall,,and have fewer disadvantages.

We are already seeing autopilot on some detectors,,,so to speak.

Or maybe what we'll see,,,,is a refined Treasure talk gti 2500. Better not laugh at this. You never know.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2017 06:00AM by tnsharpshooter.

HA HA Rick..Brujo...Love it...

Of course I'm dreaming to the farthest fathoms of my mind..But I still think Audio will be the next logical step in target Info..AT LEAST MY EARS HOPE SO

I keep hearing people say VLF is dead...I say far from it...WE know there's more than one way to skin a cat..Till someone discovers a new Transmission method I believe VLF is here to stay..Maybe more work on square wave transmissions ??

Well I have heard we don't even dream in color..Just black n White..Maybe we can at least move to stereo on detectors..

Best wishes to you and Brujo Rick for the new Year..

let me know what you fond out after you read the books!!

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

Very kind words Macromo..

I'm sure you could show us all a few things ...

You just never know what the future holds!!

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

Exactly Pimento..

A person can hear more than they can see I'm a believer in that..

And since a Detector is Grounded in audio reporting..why not give us some beautiful audio intelligence..


Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

The most endearing and informative audio I recall came from my old Nautilus 2b. Once your brain synced the all metal and discriminate sides of the audio, it was pretty amazing.

For some reason, I keep wanting to make a comparison to fish finders and metal detectors. Fish finders used to be a very simple form of sonar returns....2D sonar that went in a cone shape under the transducer. You could see returns on the screen from what was directly under the boat, and how you interpret it was up to you...it was just a guess.

Then along came side imaging which gave an aerial photo like view of the bottom...that scanned out to the sides of the boat. Instead of looking at blobs and trying to figure out what they were....now you could see near picture like images of the bottom and the fish in the water. This has advanced so much now, that the newest generation you can see the fins on the fish. The first generation of side imagery, you could see things like trees on the bottom, and sunken boats, and things like that. The new version...it is so detailed that you can make out individual cinder blocks, tires, and such on the bottom. They had a comparison between the two of a bicycle that was on the bottom. In the older tech, you could kinda see that it was something in the shape of a bicycle. In the newer tech version, you can see and count the SPOKES in the bicycle wheels.

I keep hoping that some day, some detector engineer will also be a fisherman and have the brainstorm idea to incorporate similar technology into the display of a detector. You wouldn't need something so complex that you could read the date on a coin...but just being able to see an image of the metal object in the ground would be pretty neat...just being able to determine if the object was round or odd shaped would be a big step.

Sadly, dirt is more solid and infinitely more mixed and complex than water. Sound as a search mechanism is pretty useless in dirt and electromagnetic radiation - and dechyphering the information from the responses of the ground - and any metallic objects - is way harder than folks think.

As far as I know, there are likely not more than about five persons in the world who would be able give us anything (literally) "groundbreaking" in metal detection in the near future.

One works in El Paso, one in Australia and I don't know who the others are.

Change will come - some young engineers may surprise and delight us, but the task is huge, the risk of burning up $millions for nothing are significant - and the total market 1s only in the range of a few million per year. Not the sort of thing which attracts the best and brightest.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

Daniel Tn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The new version...it is so detailed that you can ma
> ke out individual cinder blocks, tires, and such o
> n the bottom.

Pull the transducer out of the water, and hold it 1 foot above the water. What do you see on the screen?
Hold it 1 inch above the water. Now what do you see?

Keith, I have a funny little ditty to tell about this: I got my first detector 5 or 6 yrs ago. It was a Garret ACE 250. I had never read a metal detecting forum and had no idea how a metal detector worked. I thought that it was sending sound waves into the ground (like a depth/fish finder transponder) and if anything metal (or hard) would send an echo back that would be run through a battery of microchips and what-not and then present it's findings with a bell tone. Get this: After assembling my new ACE 250, I installed batteries.....turned it on...and then proceeded to put the coil up to my ear to listen for a hum!!!!!!!! I heard no hum....so I shook it vigorously......and listened again. LOL!!!!!!!!! That is how 'techie' I am!!!!! After joining several forums, I soon leaned that it was an electro-magnetic field (I think) that was piercing the ground and betraying the location of metal objects.
Keith, I am not at all making light of your thread........it's just that your thread instantly reminded me of my ignorance.....especially early on. Great thread and makes one hope that a new paradigm will someday be implemented although I doubt that it will make much difference around here. I went to my favorite CW campsite yesterday (it was intermittently raining and misting) and found ONE 54 cal Minie bullet after 5 hours of hunting. This has caused me to start re-evaluating my dedication to this hobby. When I first started MDing, simply finding a clad quarter would get my heart thumping. It ain't that way anymore. I was digging every iron grunt, any tone that might even suggest that there was metal present. I didn't even dig that many pieces of junk. But I digress...............kevin

Kev, you're too dam funny.

Funny story Kevin..

Sound's Logical to me..

Good honest approach if you ask me..

Thanks for the story!!


Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

Yes Sonar would have a tough tIme piecing an inch of soil..

Now how about a Magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) Coil...

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

You can never discount experience ....

even a machine that can seem to be a magic wand ...an experienced detectorist can push magic wand further...

Nothing will ever replace KNOW HOW..

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

[www.youtube.com]

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2017 12:57AM by Keith Southern.

A bit too much for my brain to latch onto.

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

LOL..Lowboy!!

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

Cant explain..

[www.youtube.com]

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla