Where are the new machines?

Well here we are with spring right around the corner. So where are the new machines? ML with some gold machine, and Tesoro with another box machine(I guess these can't fail when you build on top of proven platforms) I say BIG DEAL! Where is the real innovation? Where is the machine that makes us go, "WOW"? If they are planning a march release, then I guess they haven't learned from other companies, which released machines in the spring time. I say it time and time again, release in September. And what about the Deus? My father's theory was they were waiting to see what is coming out. Disappointments all around.

What are you looking for in a machine we don't have already?

A better way to detect? A pulse/vlf hybrid? Superior TID? Iron falsing elimination? IDK, but these companies should.

Wamt a truly inmovative breakthrough in metal detectors? Just commit 3-5 years and about $10,000,000. That's what you need to do something truly new and innovative in the detector world. Oh, and you need to have the services of a couple of the - probably fewer than a dozen or so - engineers in the whole world who are capable doing it. It's not enough to be a whiz at rf engineering and digital signal processing. You have to understand deeply the weird and mysterious variations in soil and mineral which have to be dealt with in underground metal detection. A stark example of how a talented engineer who lacks real knowledge of detector use and users can "go off the rails" is the last designer at the "old" Fisher ( let's just call him "Dim") who designed a series of detectors (Coinstrike, Goldstrike, Edge, Excel) with interesting and unique characteristics which were pretty much a total failure in the marketplace because of how they failed to take account of how detectors are actually used.

In my opinion, the last truly innovative "Breakthrough" detectors were the Minelab GPZ, the Teknetics T2, the Minelab GPX series and the multi freakers - Fisher CZ and ML BBS/FBS.

Pretty much everything else has been adding features to existing Basic approaches - examples here are imitators like the AT and the Nokta/Fors machines - worthy re-statements of the basic T2 concept (don't get me wrong there, they are original designs, not infringing on FT intellectual property - kind of like Android is a restatement of iOS). Even the Deus - as innovative as its ergonomics and use of wireless technology is, is very much going down the same path blazed by the T2.

The two most likely sources for something based on a new approach to detection by radio frequency means are Minelab and First Texas. Both of them have the $$$ and the engineering talent to produce a true innovation. FT showed dealers a roadmap in 2015 which got leaked. It indicated truly new directions in detector technology. Up to now, nothing more definite has been said, but they are building a very large new factory in El Paso! Minelab part of is a publicly traded company - Codan - and they are required by law to disclose results and their shareholders get publically advised of major plans. The last public disclosure in late 2016 said nothing about new general purpose detectors, but they have the resources to do serious innovation.

The rest are either small, undercapatalized or both - but lightning could strike.

Only my thoughts - feel free to ignore, disagree, dispute - all as you wish.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2017 10:01PM by lytle78.

Frank in NH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What are you looking for in a machine we don't hav
> e already?


Love to see a new flagship, or at least a significantly improved flagship. Personally, I'm holding out hope for a V3i Pro. I mean c'mon, White's hasn't even done a minor update of the V3i for 7 years, a detector that was billed as being easily upgradable via firmware. But also, Fisher was supposed to have something out late last year or early this year.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2017 11:17PM by wayfarer.

The Deus V4 pinpointer and round 9" will ship from factory by 3/31/17. Once shipping they are releasing V4.

detectingMO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Deus V4 pinpointer and round 9" will ship from
> factory by 3/31/17. Once shipping they are releas
> ing V4.

Is this just hearsay or do you have something to back it up?
If they have released a date there should be prices as well.

Tough crowd.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

shoveler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> detectingMO Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The Deus V4 pinpointer and round 9" will ship fr
> om
> > factory by 3/31/17. Once shipping they are rele
> as
> > ing V4.
>
> Is this just hearsay or do you have something to b
> ack it up?
> If they have released a date there should be price
> s as well.


This thread is funny

Hey Shoveler

here's the deus info

[www.xpmetaldetectors.com]

Yeah , I have seen that ,,,,no prices and vague dates and details.
More of the same from XP,,,,they still have two months to delay again.

The most important part of the ad is the last line

Specification can be changed at anytime without notice,,,,,and they misspelled "without" ,,,,,,,jjeeeezz!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2017 11:55PM by shoveler.

They're French - it's not like it's their native language - give them a break - besides, the state of English orthography (look it up) is a scandal!

In any event, compared to the original question - "Where is the real innovation?" XP's imcremental improvements - welcome as they may be - are irrelevant.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They're French - it's not like it's their native l
> anguage - give them a break - besides, the state o
> f English orthography (look it up) is a scandal!
>
> In any event, compared to the original question -
> "Where is the real innovation?" XP's imcremental i
> mprovements - welcome as they may be - are irrelev
> ant.

You misspelled "incremental",,,,what's your native language?

Where are the new machine? out of my budget

Ouch! - Well played sir - and that's my point - the state of the English othorgraphy is a scandal! lol

Ever wonder why the US is the only country with spelling bees?

[www.washingtonpost.com]

Oh yes, by the way - look up "jjeeeezz" in your Funk and Wagnalls!

Thankfully standardized spelling - the wet dream of uptight schoolmasters round the world - is dying quickly under the impact of ordinary folks having keyboards and internet access.

I salute your vernacular - jjeeeezz

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2017 01:00AM by lytle78.

Ha!! Like I'd have a Funk and Wagnalls , I don't even have a Farmer's Almanac It took me six months to stop calling the Deus "deuce".
How would they do a spelling bee in China? Do those pictographs have names? If they had spelling bees in ancient Egypt would the answers be carved in stone?

I love you man! Here I thought you were busting my chops - and now we can have fun!!! Chinese spelling bee - do they have to draw the ideograms - wow!

When I was a kid pilot in the USAF - I was flying KC-135's and was stationed at the - then - Lockborne AFB - now - I think - Rickenbacker Guard Base - anyway - outside Colombus OH. We lived off base as lowly 2nd. Lts. Had to do. We found a place in Lithopolis OH - home of the Wagnalls Memorial Library - yes, THAT Wagnalls! - nice library.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wamt a truly inmovative breakthrough in metal dete
> ctors? Just commit 3-5 years and about $10,000,00
> 0. That's what you need to do something truly new
> and innovative in the detector world. Oh, and you
> need to have the services of a couple of the - pro
> bably fewer than a dozen or so - engineers in the
> whole world who are capable doing it. It's not en
> ough to be a whiz at rf engineering and digital si
> gnal processing. You have to understand deeply th
> e weird and mysterious variations in soil and mine
> ral which have to be dealt with in underground met
> al detection. A stark example of how a talented en
> gineer who lacks real knowledge of detector use an
> d users can "go off the rails" is the last designe
> r at the "old" Fisher ( let's just call him "Dim")
> who designed a series of detectors (Coinstrike, Go
> ldstrike, Edge, Excel) with interesting and unique
> characteristics which were pretty much a total fai
> lure in the marketplace because of how they failed
> to take account of how detectors are actually used
> .
>
> In my opinion, the last truly innovative "Breakthr
> ough" detectors were the Minelab GPZ, the Teknetic
> s T2, the Minelab GPX series and the multi freaker
> s - Fisher CZ and ML BBS/FBS.
>
> Pretty much everything else has been adding featur
> es to existing Basic approaches - examples here ar
> e imitators like the AT and the Nokta/Fors machine
> s - worthy re-statements of the basic T2 concept (
> don't get me wrong there, they are original design
> s, not infringing on FT intellectual property - ki
> nd of like Android is a restatement of iOS). Even
> the Deus - as innovative as its ergonomics and use
> of wireless technology is, is very much going down
> the same path blazed by the T2.
>
> The two most likely sources for something based on
> a new approach to detection by radio frequency mea
> ns are Minelab and First Texas. Both of them have
> the $$$ and the engineering talent to produce a tr
> ue innovation. FT showed dealers a roadmap in 201
> 5 which got leaked. It indicated truly new direct
> ions in detector technology. Up to now, nothing mo
> re definite has been said, but they are building a
> very large new factory in El Paso! Minelab part o
> f is a publicly traded company - Codan - and they
> are required by law to disclose results and their
> shareholders get publically advised of major plans
> . The last public disclosure in late 2016 said no
> thing about new general purpose detectors, but the
> y have the resources to do serious innovation.
>
> The rest are either small, undercapatalized or bot
> h - but lightning could strike.
>
> Only my thoughts - feel free to ignore, disagree,
> dispute - all as you wish.


Dead On Post Rick!!

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2017 01:47AM by Keith Southern.

shoveler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> detectingMO Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The Deus V4 pinpointer and round 9" will ship fr
> om
> > factory by 3/31/17. Once shipping they are rele
> as
> > ing V4.
>
> Is this just hearsay or do you have something to b
> ack it up?
> If they have released a date there should be price
> s as well.

I'm a deus dealer. This is straight from XP and distro.

Prices are $199 pointer and $425 9" round. Dealers are allowed to start taking pre-orders today.

One wonders why anyone tries to help when this it how the interwebz responds. Smh

Keith - I hope you mean my post about detector development realities - if not - if you mean my fun about spelling - that's fine too - I salute your sense of humor....

But meanwhile, I ain't kiddin about how hard it is to make a breakthrough in a field as well understood and as thinly populated with qualified engineering talent as our favorite obsession.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Keith - I hope you mean my post about detector de
> velopment realities - if not - if you mean my fun
> about spelling - that's fine too - I salute your s
> ense of humor....
>
> But meanwhile, I ain't kiddin about how hard it is
> to make a breakthrough in a field as well understo
> od and as thinly populated with qualified enginee
> ring talent as our favorite obsession.


I edited the quote into that reply Rick..

I saw the back and forth going on and thought maybe my simple reply might not show my Meaning/Aim ..

It Was the Development part!!

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

> I'm a deus dealer. This is straight from XP and d
> istro.
>
> Prices are $199 pointer and $425 9" round. Dealer
> s are allowed to start taking pre-orders today.
>
> One wonders why anyone tries to help when this it
> how the interwebz responds. Smh

That's great that they have released some prices. Anything on the elliptical yet?
Asking you for verification shouldn't be considered harsh treatment , if I had asked you "for a link" instead of asking you to "back it up" , is there any difference in the meaning besides political correctness? $425 is pretty steep but if the elliptical is the same be sure to let us now , might pre-order one from you

OK - we're all pals again, meanwhile.....

iMHO - the next two years will see real changes in how detectors work and how we use them.

I'm not talking about Ground Penetrating Radar, holograms, 3d - I'm talking about new and sophisticated implementations of digital processing of more complex transmission signals to maximize the extraction and user impact of signals returned from the complex and disturbing ground and target array we seek in.

The energy returned from the target is a small fraction of the total signal. How to manipulate that energy in such a way as to cause a change in state of the observer - (you and me) - is the heart of what keeps the half dozen of serious metal detector designers in the world awake at night ----and what makes the owners/shareholders of the companies who employ them crazy!

Enough, bedtime.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2017 02:34AM by lytle78.

Keith Southern Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> lytle78 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Keith - I hope you mean my post about detector
> de
> > velopment realities - if not - if you mean my fu
> n
> > about spelling - that's fine too - I salute your
> s
> > ense of humor....
> >
> > But meanwhile, I ain't kiddin about how hard it
> is
> > to make a breakthrough in a field as well unders
> to
> > od and as thinly populated with qualified engin
> ee
> > ring talent as our favorite obsession.
>
>
> I edited the quote into that reply Rick..
>
> I saw the back and forth going on and thought mayb
> e my simple reply might not show my Meaning/Aim ..
>
> It Was the Development part!!
>
> Keith


I wonder if all this technology is steering consumers away from a purchase, don't know half the stuff, oh well we can't stop technology.
Another example are sport cars , who the heck know how they even work with so much technology, some buyers even advertising to buy older models...progress where everything looks like from the same cookie cutters.

guvmore Wrote:

> I wonder if all this technology is steering consum
> ers away from a purchase, don't know half the stuf
> f, oh well we can't stop technology.
> Another example are sport cars , who the heck know
> how they even work with so much technology, some b
> uyers even advertising to buy older models...progr
> ess where everything looks like from the same cook
> ie cutters.

The Deus certainly is for me, for one.....too many settings! complete turn off for this guy....

I thought $425 was pretty good considering its cheaper than any other coil for the deus. I would have guessed a premium for the new coil.

No info the on the elliptical. I believe late spring for it. I would guess similar pricing but I have not heard. Prices listed are MAP price.

I guess I'm a tech geek. It amazes me that you can take an entire library building of books and movies and put all of them on a little bitty flash drive, and the flash drive cost just $30 and you can bring it anywhere; fit it in your shirt pocket. The modern smart phone has replaced so many items. Just a decade ago, a in car GPS was the way to go, but they required you to spend a good amount to keep them updated and they were a pain to program in your destination, etc. Now I can just say "Ok Google" to my phone and tell it where I want to go, and it does all that for me...up to the minute updated maps and traffic...neat o.

With all that said, I think people have gotten more than a bit spoiled by all this. We have all these new gadgets to make things more efficient, and yet we feel more restrained in our time. We have gotten spoiled by having things fast, that we have lost our patience in waiting...we want things now now now. I have actually had people do this to me: when I would sell something on the forums in the evening hours, for example, I will tell the person I will ship the next morning and give the tracking number when I do. No problem right? Well come that next morning, the post office don't even open til 9:00 a.m. and by 9:30, I will have email or private messages asking if I have shipped yet. Sheesh...patience people. In a way I hope the detector companies are a little bit like how I am when it comes to patience. People keep wanting to rush them on bringing out new stuff. To me...it's like when I'm driving and I have somebody riding my bumper trying to get me to go faster. What do I do? Well I go slower just for spite.

Wow, I lit a fire here. Good. To answer your response Rick, " Just commit 3-5 years and about $10,000,000." These companies had 30-40 years and hundreds of millions of dollars. It is 2017, and we are still using 1970's vlf tech. To put it into perspective, compare a cell from 2000 to one now. 17 short years and look at the difference! Time and money aren't an excuse anymore. How many variations on a theme can they do? You got fish finders that can almost read the writing on a sunken boat in 20 feet of water, but they can't provide a detailed, ground penetrating scan of 12 inches of dirt(BTW I realize the difference between water and dirt)? I'm just saying the obvious:There are better, proven ways to scan the dirt, but companies still want you to waste money on variations(they save money on R&D, production ETC).

Beyonder-Pa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wow, I lit a fire here. Good. To answer your respo
> nse Rick, " Just commit 3-5 years and about $10,00
> 0,000." These companies had 30-40 years and hundre
> ds of millions of dollars. It is 2017, and we are
> still using 1970's vlf tech. To put it into perspe
> ctive, compare a cell from 2000 to one now. 17 sho
> rt years and look at the difference! Time and mone
> y aren't an excuse anymore. How many variations on
> a theme can they do? You got fish finders that can
> almost read the writing on a sunken boat in 20 fee
> t of water, but they can't provide a detailed, gro
> und penetrating scan of 12 inches of dirt(BTW I re
> alize the difference between water and dirt)? I'm
> just saying the obvious:There are better, proven w
> ays to scan the dirt, but companies still want you
> to waste money on variations(they save money on R&
> D, production ETC).


Yes good points re phones, but we all almost need a phone not everyone needs a metal detector and with new bylaws all the time may be a dinosaur industry in the long run...though Africa seems a busy place for the MD company's.

Dirt is way harder than water to find stuff in. Landmines are a vastly greater threat than marine mines. Physics is hard.

Talk to the young guys with the purple heart license plates. i saw one the other day here in Phoenix... personalized purple heart plate.. "IEDX2" - he probably has a hard time getting out of his SUV - I didn't see -

if metal detecting in the dirt was easy - hundreds of thousands of limbs - not to mention lives - would have been saved. Cell phones, computers, fish finders - piece of cake - all work in air or water - homogeneous - easy -- dirt - a deep, confusing - and in war - dangerous mystery.

Hundreds of millions have been spent/invested to find the one tiny metal firing pin in a non metal anti-personnel mine. I worked for a company with de-mining work in Afghanistan (yes, I was administering contracts, far from the sweaty, nerve wracking truth of the work) but nonetheless, I developed a good deal of respect for the mysteries hidden beneath the earth.

Trust me, metal detecting ain't a piece of cake.
'

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2017 04:52AM by lytle78.

lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dirt is way harder than water to find stuff in. L
> andmines are a vastly greater threat than marine m
> ines. Physics is hard.
>
> Talk to the young guys with the purple heart licen
> se plates. i saw one the other day here in Phoeni
> x... personalized purple heart plate.. "IEDX2" - h
> e probably has a hard time getting out of his SUV
> - I didn't see -
>
> if metal detecting in the dirt was easy - hundreds
> of thousands of limbs - not to mention lives - wou
> ld have been saved. Cell phones, computers, fish f
> inders - piece of cake - all work in air or water
> - homogeneous - easy -- dirt - a deep, confusing -
> and in war - dangerous mystery.
>
> Hundreds of millions have been spent/invested to f
> ind the one tiny metal firing pin in a non metal a
> nti-personnel mine. I worked for a company with d
> e-mining work in Afghanistan (yes, I was administe
> ring contracts, far from the sweaty, nerve wrackin
> g truth of the work) but nonetheless, I developed
> a good deal of respect for the mysteries hidden be
> neath the earth.
>
> Trust me, metal detecting ain't a piece of cake.
> '


Never thought of that aspect of detectors, much more important then the hobby side