NOKTA IMPACT -- PROTOTYPING REALITY

Tom, please explain what you mean by "no ID averaging." Are you saying the process/program you used (deep = slow multi snapshot) precluded ID averaging from multiple targets under the coil at the same time? Or are you saying the TIDs for each penny were as expected for copper cents?
What was your rationale for disc = 57 (and not 56 or 58)?
Why would there be a carpet of nails in the crawlspace of a house that was lifted in its entirety and not demolished or left to collapse on itself?
What is the explanation for no other non-ferrous except pennies? Where's the junk? Seems very odd.

What is planned for phase 2 of this experiment?

Thanks, Tom.

Wayne

Pleasant Garden, NC
AT Max, Nokta Impact, MX Sport, Nokta FORS Relic, GPX 4800, Infinium, Racer, Deus, F75SE, Nautilus DMC II (order of acquisition, last to first)

Does an archeologist argue with a plow? A bureaucrat with a bulldozer?

Wayne I believe (Tom please correct me if I'm wrong) that because the Impact, Racers, and Kruzers are not 'snap shot' machines, they're actually providing real time TID/audio streams, that there's no averaging,,,,,,,BUT you do get audio blending with co-located targets and bi-metal type targets that can help describe the target.

A couple of things that I've learned about these Makro/Nokta machines:

1) If you get a 97 TID (even if it simply blips up there on occasion) it's always iron wrap-around.
2) I also am noticing, that if you wiggle your coil off a target (drag it towards you) that as it goes over the edge of the target, if the audio is raspy vs an abrupt clean end, it's going to be iron (like flat iron, rusty tin, soldered cans, etc).

For item #2 I'm not (yet) sure if that's 100% of the case, but the last couple of relic hunts on my last detecting trip I was experimenting with that, and had a 100% success rate with it. Of course I was still digging the targets, as I felt that I needed more data points to be conclusive with my analysis.

HH,
Brian

Thanks for the intel Tom!
Just got my tracking number from detectingMO.
Ready to finally dive into my first Makro machine.

Tom did you try gen mode with your disc set at a certain number...if I understand that program disc is a tone break... also what was your sens set at? And you said you used a high disc?

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

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If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

Yes...... I tried Gen/Gen-D Modes....... and the audio was more soggy/smeared/not-sharp. These modes are not so good in Florida inert dirt. I COULD tell the targets were coins.

ID-Averaging (ID-Normalize) is a selectable option ...... that emulates how targets ID in 14-Khz mode. I opted to keep 20-Khz ID's intact. I selectively focused on ID's of '76' and above. . . . with substantially more interest in 78's, 79's and anything higher.
Disc of '57'..... in many applications...... rids just enough trash to make hunting substantially less fatiguing. It also allows for plenty of co-locate/masking error.
The carpet of nails under this house was (primarily) from initial construction. (You ever hunted a cellar-hole before...... or under a house? It's far from sanitary!). Then........ I speculate ...... through the years....... 'nail-ridden' projects accumulated under the house.
I did recover other higher conductor trash items that emulated a coin very closely. Ironically....... there was a fairly large volume of a very certain/specific type of copper washer. They ID'd just below Zinc Penny....... thinking I had located a bunch of Indian Head pennies. Only 2 were IHP's.
There were plenty of mid-conductors/low-conductors; yet, the intent was to measure/gauge 'efficiency' of selectively picking out the high-conductor coins.
Phase-2 = where's the Nickels!!! (And is the other non-Fe stuff truly all trash?!?!).

LCPM....... Sens was (primarily) at '94'..... EMI conditions dictated. But....... I did drop Sens numerous times for testing/measuring/documenting. Higher Sens settings presented sharper/discernable preamble & postamble audio. I used the higher Disc settings because I wanted to see if I could 'cherry-pick' in a VERY difficult scenario. Mission accomplished. If I'm relic hunting in carpets of nails....... I would use a very low Disc setting.......,,,,,,,,, with the decomposition status of the nails dictating where I 'split-hairs' with Disc setting.

Thanks, Tom. Thanks, Brian. For the clarification.

Wayne

Pleasant Garden, NC
AT Max, Nokta Impact, MX Sport, Nokta FORS Relic, GPX 4800, Infinium, Racer, Deus, F75SE, Nautilus DMC II (order of acquisition, last to first)

Does an archeologist argue with a plow? A bureaucrat with a bulldozer?

One more minor noteworthy thing......(that may/may-not be obvious). There are some modes on the Impact that are not as deep as other modes; yet, notice...... in my scenario, depth (ironically) was not the issue. Although this is very rare (how many times do you get to hunt underneath a house)...... it does allow for a unique testing environment...... in somewhat different circumstances.

Quote
NASA-Tom
April, 26 2017

Now the ball-game has changed. I NOW carry the following 3 detectors on each/every hunt in order of importance/significance:

(1) A boost process F75.
(2) A Nokta Impact (w/both coils)
(3) A 10.5" CZ-3D

Tom, it’s been nearly 10 months...is this list still your preference in order of importance/significance?

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've been wanting to do something for a long time
> now....... and finally......... all conditions wer
> e met........ and I took advantage of the opportun
> ity. I've had a very systematic/methodical plan-of
> -attack .... with sequence-of-events...... for imp
> lementation to.... more specifically test the Impa
> ct (and of course.... the Multi-Kruzer)...... in a
> carpets-of-nails environment. I have performed sim
> ilar testing before (and reported it); yet, not to
> such methodical levels..... so as to remove even m
> ore variables. I shall spare you the lengthy list
> of my process.
>
> A 1910 house had been very recently 'lifted'. It w
> as not bulldozed over...... nor burned...... which
> would leave yet another severe layer of nails to c
> ontend with. As it was....... there were still car
> pets of nails at this site. The little house was 1
> 8' x 32'. This would be my restricted hunt area. T
> he dirt was void of any grass. Only the corner str
> ucture-support cinderblocks remained. I would (de
> liberately) forgo nickels...... and seek higher co
> nductor coins.
>
> Tool: Impact. Small elliptical coil.
>
> I started (deliberately with 5-Khz)..... and the f
> alses were audibly disconcerting/crippling. I imme
> diately switched over to 20-Khz. Thirty-one coins
> were located. ALL were pennies. (I speculate that
> only small kids played under the house; hence, no
> dimes. Very small crawl-space). 2 Indian Head pen
> nies...... and 29 Wheats. Most of the wheats were
> in the 1910's & 1920's. None of the coins were gre
> ater than 4" deep. Remember...... these were all u
> nder a structure..... mostly removed from mother n
> ature.
>
> I have not said anything yet. I have not taught yo
> u anything new yet. Where am I going with this?
> I never dug any one of the high-conductor targets.
> ...... until I implemented my sole reason for this
> entire test. I needed a scientific approach to hea
> d-to-head test the Impact up against all of it's o
> wn options. I used red plastic disks to mark the e
> xact pinpoint location of each/every suspect targe
> t.
> Discoveries: The Impact could detect quite a few o
> f these 31 targets in 5-Khz. Somewhat of a surpris
> e to me. BUT....... they were audibly 'washed-out'
> ..... not very discernable; yet, by knowing their
> exact pinpoint location...... I could tell that 14
> of the coins existed. One lesson learned here is..
> ....... 5-Khz is much more 'high-conductor' resona
> nt; yet, NOT the answer....... in carpets of nails
> . 14-Khz could detect ALL of the high-conductor co
> ins...... and with better audible discernment. Sti
> ll...... somewhat 'washed-out' audio; yet, much be
> tter than 5-Khz. 20-Khz was extremely sharp/clear
> audio resolution. MUCH more body-rotation allowed
> (forgiving)...... exact pinpoint location forgivin
> g..... coil sweep-speed and altitude forgiving. Ni
> ght & Day. MUCH better at ID'ing iron. ((( Unfortu
> nately..... 20-Khz is much more tuned for iron als
> o. )))
> I switched through all of the frequencies well ove
> r 200 times in this experiment. I heavily taxed th
> e electromechanical Freq relays under the arm-cup;
> yet, no problems encountered.
> I found all of the coins in DEEP mode (a deep/slow
> multi-snapshot processing program)...... which may
> appear to be counterintuitive, .... 20-Khz, Disc
> '57', no ID 'averaging'...... and Sens on '94'....
> .. EMI conditions dictating. I switched through D
> I2, DI3, DI4 etc.......
> DI2 & DI4 modes provided slightly clearer audio re
> solution. . . . with DI4 taking a slight lead.....
> . although the audio was short/sharp (almost sound
> ing clipped). DEEP Mode was exceptionally (surpri
> singly) audibly clear. NO mode presented better pe
> rformance when lower Freq's were used. NO mode per
> formed better with lower Sens settings. Yes.... t
> here were targets that ID'd in the 60's & 70's; ye
> t, without even looking at the VDI....... coins we
> re so audibly 'clear' that....... when you hit a c
> oin....... you knew what to expect when you did fi
> nally decide to look at the ID.
>
> Now....... test is INCOMPLETE unless I were to hun
> t the area again..... but in DI4 Mode. Only one mo
> re coin was located. This is a faster processor mo
> de. (VLX modes interesting...... but no additional
> gains). This one (wheat) was indeed detectable in
> other modes; yet, very slightly less audio resolut
> ion. I simply missed this one coin.
>
> MAKRO MULTI-KRUZER = Same identical performance! 1
> 9-Khz best resolve. Lower Freqs presented too much
> iron falsing (as to be expected)..... and less 'cl
> ear' audio. Kruzer found all 31 + 1 coins....... t
> hen no other coins behind the Impact.
>
> Florida dirt!
>
> Nothing to do with detectors; yet/rather: common c
> irculated coins. Four of the pennies were 1909. Tw
> o of them were VDB's. (No 'S'). And the other two
> were simple 1909. Indians were 1906, 1907. Newest
> penny was a 1936. Kids must have grown-and-gone..
> .... so as to NOT find any newer coins. Not one cl
> ad. House was abandoned 11 years ago.


Nice test report Tom. I'm finding for relic hunting the Multi Kruzer @ 19kHz in 4-TONE mode excels in sea of nail environs, the audio is also much refined compared with the Impact.

I did not find it to be good at cherry picking deep penny/dime signals at a trashy park with lots of surface clad.

Yes...... 4-Tone on Kruzer is deep; yet, 'sharp/tight'.

Bump

NDA?

Just returning from another road trip...…. and...…. as years go by.... more experience is accrued...….. I continue to find myself increasing skillset and appreciation for the 'carpets-of-nails' handling ability of the Impact. Even though this is mostly a reiteration of older data that has already been conveyed; yet, it's worthy of a new thread 'bump'. Some of my additional thoughts are:

"Why" and "How" are the Impacts attributes presenting such resultant:

* The Impact falses slightly less on nails..... as compared to other units.
* The Impact ID's iron with slightly better resolution ….. as compared to other units. (Sounds redundant; yet, is not).
* The Impact presents fairly good ID 'lock-on'...… on non-ferrous targets that are embodied in carpets of nails.
* Presented audio data is noisy; yet, exceptionally conveying.

Hunting for high-conductive coins … in a carpet of nails: And still...… the best iron-handling abilities of the Impact are performed with 20-Khz, Tone Break @57, Sens 90's, DEEP Mode (which seems counter-intuitive). Iron Volume can be set very low...… or even completely null.,.,.,., and audio data is still intelligible.

The Anfibio is only slightly less of a iron-handling performer (as compared to the Impact)…. but this is due to the larger coil. The Anfibio is slightly deeper than the Impact; once again..... due to the larger coil size.

Tom I haven't had an opportunity to test the Anfibio, and honestly see no need to get one as IMO it's too much like the Multi Kruzer and Impact as it is.

I echo your sentiments on the Impact, yet found the Multi Kruzer to be an even better iron sifter in sea of nail environs. As good as the Impact is, the MMK is further refined, better audio, slightly better unmasking, it's amazing in small iron.

I tried to use the EQ800 in a sea of nail environment over the holiday weekend, and lets just say that it will not be my detector of choice for iron sifting sites. Tough mineralization, no question about it, but in heavy iron, the Multi Kruzer is a far superior machine, no doubt about it.

When I tested the MMK in sea of nail environs, I found 4-TONE to work the best, I'd be curious if you could further expand on your opinion on using the DEEP (aka Boost Process) mode vs the 4-TONE mode and why you found it to be better?

N/T



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2018 09:33PM by Cabin Fever.

Brian,

There's a unique phenomenon that ensues with the utilization of DEEP Mode ..... vs..... the MUCH faster modes. There are trade-offs; yet, in my environ...… coupled with the human factor (my ears)…… I can see a common-denominator.

The DEEP Mode takes many more snapshots before reporting a target. (Hence a slightly delayed audio response..... should the human ear be astute to recognize/detect this latency). A faster Mode takes less snapshots..... subsequently; audibly reports quicker.
Here's the paradox: You would think the faster mode would be better at reporting more targets in a target-rich environment. Quicker to: detect, report, shut-down.
On the contrary; the DEEP Mode takes more (ID critical) snapshots...…. then reports a more elongated audio response …… accentuating a unsuspecting human factor entrant …... whereby: triggering human ear & brain to: ""I heard a good target"".
Continuing the paradox: The faster Modes does indeed report more targets and with greater enhanced adjacent target separation; yet, can (and eventually will) be more fatiguing..... even to the point of: no intelligible detection to the human ear. . . . . due to the shortness of the audio response(s). You rapidly encroach human ear/brain limits with the faster modes.

Thanks for your reply Tom, very interesting paradox there indeed. Reminds me a bit of how the human brain works in relation to stories, human conversation, even web browsing. One of our dinosaur brain functions is to conserve calories, and search for food. If said story, conversation or web site is chaotic information overload, the brain simply shuts down and moves on to the next, more digestible chunk of conversation/information....I.E.; there's nothing in this for me, and I'm wasting calories on it.

BTW I liked using the DEEP mode to hunt dirt piles at a park scrape demo and it resulted in several nice finds (including some historic two piece buttons).

What's your take on the E.U.D. Function on the Multi Kruzer or Anfibio Multi?