How hard can it be?

For over a decade I've ask for one small feature to a good detector.
Say for instance on the Fisher F75 detector or another machine of comparable abilities.
Add a two tone function in the motion all metal mode.
Nothing fancy, just one tone for ferrous and another for non-ferrous.
Being a computer programmer for several years I can't imagine this would be very difficult.
Little example:
Now on the F75, while in motion all metal mode the machine gives better depth and also gives an ID for detected metal objects.
So since nothing is really needed except assigning a tone to the ID number scheme why is it so hard to acquire a unit with that feature.
I know the V3i has a feature similar, but it lacks the depth capability of the F75 in my ground.
Now I've ask again.
I'll check back in another decade.

AT Gold
MX Sport

Treasure Baron Gold Trax had a perfect low tone on iron in all metal.

The AT Gold in all metal with iron tone on doesn't work in iron trash because it's a high/low tone on iron.

The MX Sport all metal with iron tone does work. Max depth is 10" on a dime in mild ground.

I think all metal detectors should have an all metal mode with a low tone on iron because it can be done.

Rick



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2017 03:07AM by Rick, N. MI.

I got a Treasure Baron Goldtrax a few months ago. I loaned it to a guy on the Geotech forum to play with, maybe it will inspire him.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

The MX5 using 2 tone audio in the Coin mode with all metal accepted works extremely well for me in my ground.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2017 03:33AM by Hombre.

Depends on your Viagra dose.....

Hi Mark,
I tried to fix you up but it is much more difficult than you would think to add discrimination to a threshold based motion all metal mode. For starters, discrimination needs a decent size target response to process. Threshold based motion all metal only needs enough signal response to break the threshold. If the signal is too weak to process you get nothing but threshold responses. When the signal response is great enough for disc processing, when you put the two together you get a ramp up threshold response followed by an off peak disc response for the ramp down. It sounds awful, the disc response is delayed, and it only works on the strong signal responses and so we shelved it. But it was tried out over a period of time across a couple of prototypes.

The Goldstrike did this ok, they got the tone response figured out (two tone) but still, the target responses has to be strong enough for the disc channel to process and the only reason you are asking for such a feature is for the deep targets that give too weak a response for the disc channel to id. I liked the feature better for hot rocks than for ferrous id.

Stereo mix mode is a much better option for what you are asking for. Hear the threshold base motion all metal in one ear and the disc circuit in the other ear and let your brain learn to process. Still have the same limitations around signal strength needed for disc processing, though.

HH
Mike

The new Impact has this ability in the GEN(D) modes.

Mark asked the same question on Geotech1. I'll duplicate my reply here:

Quote:"why is it so hard to acquire a unit with that feature"
This is what the XP GoldmaxxPower / Gmaxx2 do, along with some of their 'imitators', which I believe include some Deeptech's, maybe the Vista models?
And Fisher/Teknetics are probably reluctant to do it because they don't want to appear to be copying one of their rivals.

And regarding this from MikeH:
"discrimination needs a decent size target response to process"
I don't agree, here. If you make the default tone the iron-tone, and only blend it into a higher-tone when the signal is 'strong enough', it will do what MarkG wants. It's then up to the user to interpret the tones and take action appropriately, such as re-sweeping weak-sounding iron tones to see if a better sweep will turn them into non-ferrous tones, etc etc.
By 'strong enough', I'm meaning that combination of signal strength and whether it's high/low conductor that combine to make a target more 'visible' to a machine.

What WOULD be interesting is a multi-freq machine that does this 'discriminating all-metal' mode. I have to admit I'm not 100% sure how well it would work, especially as multi-freq operation is apparently not that great for doing ferrous/non-ferrous distinction.

CTX.

I'm talking audio of course. Everyone is already doing the visual disc in all metal modes, You just want to hear it as well as see it.

The issue is application. Why would you want such a feature when you already have a functioning disc mode? The answer is you want to apply this to fringe depth targets that don't give a disc signal. But if it s not going to process in the regular Disc mode, it isn't going to process in the all metal mode either.

HH
Mike

If I recall correctly, 'Mark's Problem' is strong dirt, and his 'fringe depth targets' are only 4 inches deep. So in these circumstances, the extra 'sensitivity' of all-metal, be it conventional or discriminating all-metal, is just going to give you more iron-tone targets. This would be hard work, having to assess every one just to see if it's really iron or not.

if its true all metal threshold based mode it cant discriminate..the signal is single channel and never phase shifted..

what manufacturers do is through Processing ADDDING a processed disc signal with the allmetal in unison...theres no way to process a single channel raw feed to ID..

that we we get mixed modes..

as of late like on impact they are using more Processign behind the scenes to waver threshold in Ged(D) up or down for conductance ID to a point then it stops and becoems a raw feed again at a certain distance.

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

Now I'm confused, and I'm probably not the only one.
Plenty of folks saying x,y,z detector does it, people saying it's difficult to do, others saying it's not that effective and no better than regular disc-mode, and Keith says it can't be done?

Keith Southern Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> if its true all metal threshold based mode it cant discriminate..
> the signal is single channel and never phase shifted..

Not so. Most motion-VLF detectors have:

2nd derivative: motion disc
1st derivative: motion AM
Raw signal: non-motion pinpoint

All of these signals exist in quadrature, so phase can be extracted with increasing difficulty and decreasing accuracy.
It is true that weak signals produce an unreliable phase, sometimes horribly wrong.

Dan-Pa. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Depends on your Viagra dose.....

Laughing my tail off Dan!! That right there was funny! !

The only units I've ever seen that are manufactured at least, uses Mixed mode to give ID either tonally or Visually while in a all metal mode...

Some manufacturers have only a disc mode yet say they have an all metal mode yet its just a full accept disc mode...


I've always thought that a True single channel all metal mode was a pure signal....and Believed the signal had to be dual channel for ID purposes....ran through a phase shift for comparison..

Thanks for the info Carl

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

Keith: I'm a little surprised that someone with your hours on the Impact didn't point out the 'discriminating all-metal' modes GEN and GEN(D). I've only got the manual to go by, but it does seem that these modes are slightly different, in that GEN(D) is a fixed ferrous/non-ferrous ID tone, whereas GEN has a user-selectable tone-break. I was a bit concerned about the 'silent threshold' before non-iron tone generation, maybe that's what the GEN(D) mode addresses - no silences, just the iron-tone if it's a weak target.

So what do you think, then, MarkG ? Plenty of suggestions, time to start saving your money, or at least getting hold of some units for testing, anyway.

Having the deepest all metal targets default to iron tone completely defeats the entire reason for using mixed mode audio. The idea is to get a disc reading on targets strong enough to resolve via the disc channel, but have the all metal channel alert you to deeper unknown targets. To assume they are ferrous or non-ferrous defeats the purpose. You just don't know - all you know is they are deep and beyond disc range. These are the targets that all people employing standard disc modes simply pass over without ever knowing they exist. You have an advantage over just using a regular all metal mode in at least getting a target id on the 90% of shallower targets the disc channel does work with. Yet it is those unknown deepest targets that may be of the most interest.

Keith discussed the Impact Gen modes here [www.dankowskidetectors.com]

Regarding this:"These are the targets that all people employing standard disc modes simply pass over without ever knowing they exist."
This possibly depends on the detector, and how it's set up (and user skill level). I use an F75, and run it in tone ID with Disc=1 or 0. I find it will happily alert me to weak targets that are some way beyond being successfully ID'd, with an Iron Tone. So I'm aware of many targets that are weak/deep, it's just that I can't readily tell if they're weak signals or genuine iron at shallower depths, so further investigation is required. This is where a Mixed Mode would provide more info. But presumably Discriminating All-metal (such as the Impact's GEN (D) mode ) would also provide most of this info, as the sound will be weak for the deep unknown target, but stronger for the shallower target.

I assumed right from the outset that MarkG wasn't after a Mixed-Mode machine.

You are talking about fringe targets in disc mode. That is not the same as deep targets in all metal mode. No F75 I have ever used will signal at all with any tone on targets as deep in bad ground employing any disc mode with any settings as they will in the boost all metal mode. Those targets that can be detected at depth in all metal mode that cannot be signaled on at all in a disc mode are the targets you walk right over without knowing they are there when you employ a disc mode.

Maybe all my F75s have been bad....

What I see being ignored here is that the disc mode, regardless of where its employed is going to act the same. It doesn't matter if you use it stand alone or combined with the all metal mode. It is still going to give you the same response and it will be affected by the ground minerals the same way regardless of how its used.

If a dime wraps to iron at 4" then you need to look for a way to keep it in the non-ferrous range longer. Mineralization minimization actions will help such as very small coils, lower frequencies, expanced conductive ranges, highly expanded iron ranges, these will all help. But adding disc to all metal isn't going to help.

Again, two detectors to spend time examining in this context (audio discrimination) are the Fisher CoinStrike and the Whites V3i. The Coinstrike's extreme non-ferrous range combined with its operating frequency keeps non-ferrous targets in the non-ferrous range longer in high mineral context. The V3i's very low frequency combined with its wrap/span features, do the same. In high minerals the issue is keeping non-ferrous responding in the non-ferrous range as long as possible before they fall over to an iron response.

HH
Mike

Not being ignored Mike, we are all just on different wavelengths here.

"Maybe all my F75s have been bad...."
Well I admit I've no idea if mine's any good, flawed or red hot. It's old, and it's chattery. They're not so popular over here, the T2 get the vote on economic grounds, so I've never even compared it to anyone else's....

If MarkG ever makes a post saying he's found a detector that works really well in his dirt, we should all take note, I think.

Marks ground is similar to mine. Dime readings turn to ferrous readings at 5-6 inches. People talk about 10 inch dimes back east and the only way that is happening for me is if I use a PI detector. I hunt in all metal modes almost exclusively. The F75 is a superb all metal hunter but I lean to gold hunting so the Gold Bug Pro/G2 19 kHz variants serve as well or better for most of my use. I have to admit to being sorely tempted by the T2 Classic as of late. There are times a concentric is nice however so I will be surprised if another F75 does not end up on my doorstep someday. A lot of that depends on how the Impact ends up sorting out for me this summer. It's looking good so far, I am anxious to get the large coil on it ASAP.

What i like about a Mixed mode or Dual mode or whatever they are calling it from the factory is the ability to know that if a target is out of range of disc it still reports...

I have the full feel of the raw feed..and the ability to use disc to...that way even if itsa iron tone but sounds ROUND on the all metal side I dig it KNOWING my dirt depth range..and if I don't get any Disc report I surely dig it form threshold waver as I know its DEEEEEP..


Vlf is Vlf and a raw signal can punch deeper than a phase shifted signal from disc mode...

alot to be said for a threshold based all metal single channel mode..

yet works best for depth and telling targets that are misreading disc side on isolated targets....Like one target under the coil at a time type scenarios.


BUT a a full range disc accept like a t2-F75 etc with iron tone can also be of tremendous value too as the iron tone can speak volumes to a SAVVY operator weak iron hits can mean real deep and even round iron hits in harsh dirt like 4/5 bars at 6 inch depth can be good target's..without the IRON TONE we would walk by those target's...

So many ways to SAY ALL METAL as of late...

In my minds EYE there's one ALL metal Mode and its threshold based raw feed..Yet there's also Disc circuit Phase shifted all metal(FULL ACCEPT) ..

Yes the Impact is Wavering the Threshold as high Hz tone for non ferrous and low Hz tone for Non ferrous and its also modulated In GEN(D) ..Yet I believe and I may be wrong...its a PROCESSED disc side report out to disc depth then threshold goes back to normal Hz sound...I Imagine this is done through processing all in a micro second and its seemingly fluid...itsa different way of MIXING MODES and for me its Futuristic FEELING in that its still very much raw channel feed OLD SCHOOL feel threshold waive but with a twist.reminds you of a ground balancing P.I. that really has disc..I dotn have the BUSY feel of like say a MXT or nautilus...two signals at once disc and all metal..It marries them in a seamless report..UNIQUE!!!

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

Mike Hillis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Mark,
> I tried to fix you up but it is much more difficul
> t than you would think to add discrimination to a
> threshold based motion all metal mode. For start
> ers, discrimination needs a decent size target res
> ponse to process. Threshold based motion all meta
> l only needs enough signal response to break the t
> hreshold. If the signal is too weak to process yo
> u get nothing but threshold responses. When the
> signal response is great enough for disc processin
> g, when you put the two together you get a ramp up
> threshold response followed by an off peak disc re
> sponse for the ramp down. It sounds awful, the d
> isc response is delayed, and it only works on the
> strong signal responses and so we shelved it. But
> it was tried out over a period of time across a co
> uple of prototypes.
>
> The Goldstrike did this ok, they got the tone resp
> onse figured out (two tone) but still, the target
> responses has to be strong enough for the disc cha
> nnel to process and the only reason you are asking
> for such a feature is for the deep targets that gi
> ve too weak a response for the disc channel to id.
> I liked the feature better for hot rocks than for
> ferrous id.
>
> Stereo mix mode is a much better option for what y
> ou are asking for. Hear the threshold base motio
> n all metal in one ear and the disc circuit in the
> other ear and let your brain learn to process. S
> till have the same limitations around signal stren
> gth needed for disc processing, though.
>
> HH
> Mike

Mike I actually don't want discrimination added to the motion all metal mode. I would like two tones. Since the machine is already giving an ID for targets, just program the machine to give a different tone for ID's 15 and below and another for 15 and above.
I hate to say, but I might just need to buy another machine.
I had the V3i and the mix mode wasn't what I was looking for.
I'm sure if I switch to another brand I can get what I want.

"Mike, I actually don't want discrimination added to the motion all metal mode. I would like two tones."

Mark, I get the impression you see the word 'discrimination' and think 'silence for what I don't want, a tone for everything else'
whereas Mike and others (myself included) take it as meaning 'identification of target nature', and whether it's presented as "iron-tone/non-iron tone", or "below tone-break level / above tone-break" or "in the notch zone / out of it" it's all 'discrimination'.

So adding two tones to motion all-metal mode IS discrimination.

Mark, I am assuming you are using the F75. You already have that tone option. Its called 2F in the Disc mode, and the new versions include the 2H and 2L in Disc mode. So I guess you are wanting 2F in the all metal mode. The Disc circuit that is giving you a visual TID in the all metal mode isn't going to work any deeper than it does on Disc side. Its fixed. Doesn't matter which side it operates on.

Think about it for just a minute. This is what you are asking for.

You get a signal. Decision point = is it strong enough to process for identification (Discrimination) ? Yes = process through Disc and respond with tone A for lower than 15, respond with tone B if above 15.

You get a signal. Decision point = is it strong enough to process for identification (Discrimination) ? No = process through All Metal threshold pitch response.

The all metal threshold response is immediate. The Discrimination response has to wait until after the signal peaks to determine if there is enough signal strength to trigger the Disc circuit.. The response is like this,,,,cut off, threshold pitch rise, peak, start the fall off, cut off, disc response (IF possible), cut off.

If I understand Keith, an Impact mode removes the cutoff portions and just mixes it together IF the signal response is strong enough to trigger the Disc circuit. That would be more refined sounding than cutoffs.

My experience is that mixed mode is still better in that you have finer control over the two circuits. You get to select the Disc trigger threhold point. I don't know if the Impact allows that.

Anyway...good luck in your search.

HH
Mike

Yes Mike...

Gen(D) is fluid..

Gen has ability to mix with cutoffs like whites..

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla