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Hopefully, this will settle this(Minelab EQ and FBS).
Posted by Beyonder-Pa
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Re: Hopefully, this will settle this(Minelab EQ and FBS). September 26, 2017 05:18PM |
canslawhero Wrote:
>
> well put Cobra, it should be noted that processor
> power vs cost has increased tremendously since the
> CTX was introduced so it makes sense
> considering that Minelab mentions those 3 bullet p
> oints. My regret is that it won't allow user-upgra
> dable firmware for improvements/fixes, but even
> if it were available updates most likely wouldn't
> be available, lol
I think Minelab said in one of the videos it had a USB port, so maybe it'll be user upgradable?
Minelab seems to be skittish on giving users the ability to self upgrade for bug fixes, stability enhancements, and potentially new features. Not sure why, that's a good selling feature.
Imagine if you bought a new computer, but you could never upgrade it (Tom you can upgrade yours
I've heard a lot of CTX users complain that ML made that promise with the CTX and it never really came to fruition (what one upgrade in 5 years?).
>
> well put Cobra, it should be noted that processor
> power vs cost has increased tremendously since the
> CTX was introduced so it makes sense
> considering that Minelab mentions those 3 bullet p
> oints. My regret is that it won't allow user-upgra
> dable firmware for improvements/fixes, but even
> if it were available updates most likely wouldn't
> be available, lol
I think Minelab said in one of the videos it had a USB port, so maybe it'll be user upgradable?
Minelab seems to be skittish on giving users the ability to self upgrade for bug fixes, stability enhancements, and potentially new features. Not sure why, that's a good selling feature.
Imagine if you bought a new computer, but you could never upgrade it (Tom you can upgrade yours
I've heard a lot of CTX users complain that ML made that promise with the CTX and it never really came to fruition (what one upgrade in 5 years?).
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Re: Hopefully, this will settle this(Minelab EQ and FBS). September 26, 2017 05:23PM |
Cal_cobra Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> canslawhero Wrote:
>
> >
> > well put Cobra, it should be noted that processo
> r
> > power vs cost has increased tremendously since t
> he
> > CTX was introduced so it makes sense
> > considering that Minelab mentions those 3 bullet
> p
> > oints. My regret is that it won't allow user-upg
> ra
> > dable firmware for improvements/fixes, but even
> > if it were available updates most likely wouldn'
> t
> > be available, lol
>
>
> I think Minelab said in one of the videos it had a
> USB port, so maybe it'll be user upgradable?
>
> Minelab seems to be skittish on giving users the a
> bility to self upgrade for bug fixes, stability en
> hancements, and potentially new features. Not sur
> e why, that's a good selling feature.
>
> Imagine if you bought a new computer, but you coul
> d never upgrade it (Tom you can upgr
> ade yours I've heard a lot of CTX users com
> plain that ML made that promise with the CTX and i
> t never really came to fruition (what one upgrade
> in 5 years?).
Actually updatable through the magnetic port on the back(confirmed).
-------------------------------------------------------
> canslawhero Wrote:
>
> >
> > well put Cobra, it should be noted that processo
> r
> > power vs cost has increased tremendously since t
> he
> > CTX was introduced so it makes sense
> > considering that Minelab mentions those 3 bullet
> p
> > oints. My regret is that it won't allow user-upg
> ra
> > dable firmware for improvements/fixes, but even
> > if it were available updates most likely wouldn'
> t
> > be available, lol
>
>
> I think Minelab said in one of the videos it had a
> USB port, so maybe it'll be user upgradable?
>
> Minelab seems to be skittish on giving users the a
> bility to self upgrade for bug fixes, stability en
> hancements, and potentially new features. Not sur
> e why, that's a good selling feature.
>
> Imagine if you bought a new computer, but you coul
> d never upgrade it (Tom you can upgr
> ade yours
I've heard a lot of CTX users com
> plain that ML made that promise with the CTX and i
> t never really came to fruition (what one upgrade
> in 5 years?).
Actually updatable through the magnetic port on the back(confirmed).
|
Re: Hopefully, this will settle this(Minelab EQ and FBS). September 27, 2017 02:01AM |
Beyonder-Pa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "But, by "full band," I don't think he w
> as referring to "full band" as in FBS."
>
> "Think", that's the critical word in that sentence
> . We don't know. Earlier in the video, there is a
> very tight lipped response about releasing that in
> formation. I don't think it will be BBS or FBS(acc
> ording to Brandon.) but, it would be nice just to
> keep the cries for "Gimmie FBS in everything!!!" d
> own to a dull roar.
>
> As for the video, He said, " it's "not just the si
> ngle frequencies, it's the full band". In other wo
> rds it's not just 5,10,15,20, and 40, It's the fu
> ll band There is no such thing as a multi freq tha
> t runs only a single freq so it has to mean full b
> and of individual freqs.
Beyonder, I totally agree with you that the "multi-frequency" option, when selected on the Equinox, will transmit some grouping, or band, of individual frequencies, simultaneously. We agree here; maybe I just wasn't making that clear. Seems like we may not be totally understanding each other, sort of "two ships passing in the night," but I'm not sure where exactly we may be missing each other.
What I'm trying to say is, some folks would call a "multi-frequency" machine one that allows you to choose different, single frequencies to transmit/detect with. In other words, an example might be a machine with a toggle switch of 5 kHz and 15 kHz -- you can run 5, or switch it and run 15, and thus it is a "multi-frequency" machine. The Equinox is this type of machine, BUT, it's more. It includes Multi-IQ, and according to Minelab Multi-IQ technology allows SIMULTANEOUS multi-frequency, which you and I both agree means that you can run several individual frequencies all at once, a "band" of frequencies.
My only point was that, again, "simultaneous multi-frequency" and "FBS" are not synonyms. FBS is a specific type of "simultaneous multi-frequency technology;" BBS is a specific type of "simultaneous multi-frequency technology," and now, Multi-IQ is apparently a "new, specific type" of "simultaneous multi-frequency technology." Is it similar to FBS and/or BBS? Possibly; like you say, we just don't know at this point. But, I think it is fair to say that it is NOT simply FBS being re-packaged under a different name. I have seen, if I am not mistaken, EXPLICIT statements that this is a "new type" of technology (and Pimento hinted at this as well, above). Will it be better than FBS or BBS? Possibly, for some applications. But Minelab is apparently telling us ahead of time that it won't be "quite as good," in a silver-coin-hunting application. So -- while I am waiting with an open mind and somewhat high hopes to see what this Multi-IQ technology CAN do, I still would love to see performance that meets or exceeds FBS on silver coins. I'll try to keep it down to a "dull roar," though!
Finally, one more thought. I have seen some folks, here and elsewhere, say that Minelab might SPECIFICALLY make this $899 machine "less hot" on deep coins, so as not to challenge the $2500 CTX, and possibly hurt CTX sales. In other words, like they produced a very HOT technology, in Multi-IQ, but would, to use an analogy, need to put some type of "governor" or "restrictor" on it to purposely "hinder" its ability and keep it a "mid-range" performer. For those who think, or have implied this, my take is that this is not at all why I perceive the statement that it is a machine that "will be a little better when hunting low conductors, vs. high conductors." Instead of "purposely hindering" the machine on deep silver, I think it's more reflective of the tradeoff between using low frequencies and high frequencies. With FBS utilizing 3.125 kHz as one of its xmit frequencies, and Multi-IQ capable of no lower than 5 kHz (apparently), this is probably part of the reason there. As I understand it, when you are trying to deal with ground minerals, and achieve some unmasking capability, there is a tradeoff there, as the frequencies which do best at one, are hindered a bit on the other end (depth, and resonance with high conductors). So, I think it's less Minelab trying to "hinder" the deep-silver-finding ability of the Equinox so as to "not threaten" the CTX, but more that their focus on a fast, unmasking machine good for small, low conductors RESULTS IN a machine not quite as hot on deep high conductors...
Steve
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2017 02:18AM by steveg.
-------------------------------------------------------
> "But, by "full band," I don't think he w
> as referring to "full band" as in FBS."
>
> "Think", that's the critical word in that sentence
> . We don't know. Earlier in the video, there is a
> very tight lipped response about releasing that in
> formation. I don't think it will be BBS or FBS(acc
> ording to Brandon.) but, it would be nice just to
> keep the cries for "Gimmie FBS in everything!!!" d
> own to a dull roar.
>
> As for the video, He said, " it's "not just the si
> ngle frequencies, it's the full band". In other wo
> rds it's not just 5,10,15,20, and 40, It's the fu
> ll band There is no such thing as a multi freq tha
> t runs only a single freq so it has to mean full b
> and of individual freqs.
Beyonder, I totally agree with you that the "multi-frequency" option, when selected on the Equinox, will transmit some grouping, or band, of individual frequencies, simultaneously. We agree here; maybe I just wasn't making that clear. Seems like we may not be totally understanding each other, sort of "two ships passing in the night," but I'm not sure where exactly we may be missing each other.
What I'm trying to say is, some folks would call a "multi-frequency" machine one that allows you to choose different, single frequencies to transmit/detect with. In other words, an example might be a machine with a toggle switch of 5 kHz and 15 kHz -- you can run 5, or switch it and run 15, and thus it is a "multi-frequency" machine. The Equinox is this type of machine, BUT, it's more. It includes Multi-IQ, and according to Minelab Multi-IQ technology allows SIMULTANEOUS multi-frequency, which you and I both agree means that you can run several individual frequencies all at once, a "band" of frequencies.
My only point was that, again, "simultaneous multi-frequency" and "FBS" are not synonyms. FBS is a specific type of "simultaneous multi-frequency technology;" BBS is a specific type of "simultaneous multi-frequency technology," and now, Multi-IQ is apparently a "new, specific type" of "simultaneous multi-frequency technology." Is it similar to FBS and/or BBS? Possibly; like you say, we just don't know at this point. But, I think it is fair to say that it is NOT simply FBS being re-packaged under a different name. I have seen, if I am not mistaken, EXPLICIT statements that this is a "new type" of technology (and Pimento hinted at this as well, above). Will it be better than FBS or BBS? Possibly, for some applications. But Minelab is apparently telling us ahead of time that it won't be "quite as good," in a silver-coin-hunting application. So -- while I am waiting with an open mind and somewhat high hopes to see what this Multi-IQ technology CAN do, I still would love to see performance that meets or exceeds FBS on silver coins. I'll try to keep it down to a "dull roar," though!
Finally, one more thought. I have seen some folks, here and elsewhere, say that Minelab might SPECIFICALLY make this $899 machine "less hot" on deep coins, so as not to challenge the $2500 CTX, and possibly hurt CTX sales. In other words, like they produced a very HOT technology, in Multi-IQ, but would, to use an analogy, need to put some type of "governor" or "restrictor" on it to purposely "hinder" its ability and keep it a "mid-range" performer. For those who think, or have implied this, my take is that this is not at all why I perceive the statement that it is a machine that "will be a little better when hunting low conductors, vs. high conductors." Instead of "purposely hindering" the machine on deep silver, I think it's more reflective of the tradeoff between using low frequencies and high frequencies. With FBS utilizing 3.125 kHz as one of its xmit frequencies, and Multi-IQ capable of no lower than 5 kHz (apparently), this is probably part of the reason there. As I understand it, when you are trying to deal with ground minerals, and achieve some unmasking capability, there is a tradeoff there, as the frequencies which do best at one, are hindered a bit on the other end (depth, and resonance with high conductors). So, I think it's less Minelab trying to "hinder" the deep-silver-finding ability of the Equinox so as to "not threaten" the CTX, but more that their focus on a fast, unmasking machine good for small, low conductors RESULTS IN a machine not quite as hot on deep high conductors...
Steve
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2017 02:18AM by steveg.
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Re: Hopefully, this will settle this(Minelab EQ and FBS). September 28, 2017 12:31AM |
Geotech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> steveg Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > BUT -- my reason for saying "fair to say" that F
> BS is not being repackaged and just given a new na
> me,
> > is that I thought I had understood Minelab to ha
> ve said that "Multi-IQ" is "different, new technol
> ogy."
>
> Yup, and they also said that BBS is 17 frequencies
> and FBS is 28 frequencies. Yet they are both the e
> xact same 2 frequencies.
>
> Minelab has some really good engineers, but they'r
> e nowhere near as good as their marketing dept.
LOL
One thing I will say, though, is while you are probably right, I do believe that good marketing will -- eventually -- be exposed as just that, and nothing more, IF the underlying product is not proven by customers to perform well, over time. You can get by on creative (or even false) marketing for awhile, initially, but if your product doesn't have the "goods" to back up the "boasts," eventually people will learn that -- and ultimately lose faith in both the product, AND the producer of the product.
From that perspective, I KNOW Minelab machines perform -- and perform very well -- in the applications I use them for. And as such, I am usually willing to place a bit more faith in what they say in their marketing, than I might with some "company B," that had not earned my trust. That said, there's still a sort of "caveat emptor," "trust but verify" aspect to that...
I would LOVE to understand this all better, in terms of frequencies, and how many frequencies, etc. I know you do, Carl. I wish I could find someone with the patience to translate this all in a language that I could grasp (given my lack of much background education in electronics, but background in another scientific discipline).
I've heard some of the "FBS is really two frequencies," that you mentioned, but I also have heard another side of the argument, that there is some sort of "technicality" there where Minelab takes the two frequencies and somehow "exploits" or divides them in some way (or something), harmonics or something, such that in the end, it's somewhat a semantic argument as to whether it's really two frequencies, or many frequencies. I'm sure reading what I just said makes you laugh, Carl, as it was probably a horrible butchering of the truth, and I probably sound like an idiot to someone with knowledge of electronics, but in any case...I'd love to understand better. I'm going to go re-read all the stuff Pimento linked (I read some of it years ago, but need to do so again, and see if I can grasp any more of it)...
IN THE MEAN TIME, back to Multi-IQ; if FBS and BBS used, at least at their core, the exact same two frequencies (which would be 3.125 and 25, according to Pimento?), then I assume Multi-IQ IS different, in some way -- based on an assumption that the frequencies used in Multi-IQ would seem likely to be (I'm speculating) some form of the 5 kHz, 10 kHz, 15 kHz, etc. frequencies that can be selected individually on the Equinox, no?
Steve
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2017 01:40AM by steveg.
-------------------------------------------------------
> steveg Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > BUT -- my reason for saying "fair to say" that F
> BS is not being repackaged and just given a new na
> me,
> > is that I thought I had understood Minelab to ha
> ve said that "Multi-IQ" is "different, new technol
> ogy."
>
> Yup, and they also said that BBS is 17 frequencies
> and FBS is 28 frequencies. Yet they are both the e
> xact same 2 frequencies.
>
> Minelab has some really good engineers, but they'r
> e nowhere near as good as their marketing dept.
LOL
One thing I will say, though, is while you are probably right, I do believe that good marketing will -- eventually -- be exposed as just that, and nothing more, IF the underlying product is not proven by customers to perform well, over time. You can get by on creative (or even false) marketing for awhile, initially, but if your product doesn't have the "goods" to back up the "boasts," eventually people will learn that -- and ultimately lose faith in both the product, AND the producer of the product.
From that perspective, I KNOW Minelab machines perform -- and perform very well -- in the applications I use them for. And as such, I am usually willing to place a bit more faith in what they say in their marketing, than I might with some "company B," that had not earned my trust. That said, there's still a sort of "caveat emptor," "trust but verify" aspect to that...
I would LOVE to understand this all better, in terms of frequencies, and how many frequencies, etc. I know you do, Carl. I wish I could find someone with the patience to translate this all in a language that I could grasp (given my lack of much background education in electronics, but background in another scientific discipline).
I've heard some of the "FBS is really two frequencies," that you mentioned, but I also have heard another side of the argument, that there is some sort of "technicality" there where Minelab takes the two frequencies and somehow "exploits" or divides them in some way (or something), harmonics or something, such that in the end, it's somewhat a semantic argument as to whether it's really two frequencies, or many frequencies. I'm sure reading what I just said makes you laugh, Carl, as it was probably a horrible butchering of the truth, and I probably sound like an idiot to someone with knowledge of electronics, but in any case...I'd love to understand better. I'm going to go re-read all the stuff Pimento linked (I read some of it years ago, but need to do so again, and see if I can grasp any more of it)...
IN THE MEAN TIME, back to Multi-IQ; if FBS and BBS used, at least at their core, the exact same two frequencies (which would be 3.125 and 25, according to Pimento?), then I assume Multi-IQ IS different, in some way -- based on an assumption that the frequencies used in Multi-IQ would seem likely to be (I'm speculating) some form of the 5 kHz, 10 kHz, 15 kHz, etc. frequencies that can be selected individually on the Equinox, no?
Steve
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2017 01:40AM by steveg.
