Detectival Rally 2017 by Brandon Neice

GreenMeanie Wrote:
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> You mean like when the companies say their new rel
> ease is deeper and all they do is default sensitiv
> ity a little higher and people fall for it LOL.

No, when ML released the GPZ they quoted a 40% increase in depth over the GPX 5000 and then they released the 19" coil for it and they quoted another 30% increase in depth over the GPZ 14" coil.

So If the GPX sees a 4ozt nugget at 26" the Zed should see it at 36.4" and then add the 19" coil and that should now see the nugget at 47.32", The point is it does not produce these figure, Yes it has great small gold abilities, But when they make a blanket statement like that people feel cheated, Some are happy with what ever the increase in performance might be regardless of how small it is, But ML quoted 40% more depth on a 10,500 dollar detector and 30% more depth on a 1500 dollar coil and those figures worked out to be untrue,

So as for believing anyone who is connected to Minelab, That's not going to happen unless I see with my own eyes, Correct coil choice will have more of an impact on the depth of finds or the amount of finds more than anything else and a machine only comes obsolete when it stops working, I have a 28 year old Blue Box Whites that is still deeper than any current model on the market,

I just wish that these companies and promoters would stop Pissing on my Boots and Telling me it's Raining.

Brandon Niece
I'm a no bullshit kinda guy.
> Over a decade in the fire service will do that to
> a person.

Chicago Ron Also worked in the fire industry. I think I saw a depends commercial he was in the other day... Haha., All jokes aside I do believe Brandon is being Pretty accurate on his reviews and statements the only thing I'm not bying at this point is that it will out perform the ctx in any way. Recovery speed sure. Brandon's reputation is on the line So I believe anything the man says to be fairly accurate to a point He can't sit there and say anything negitive about the product so he is in a really tough spot of promoting something plus keeping his Rep and not ticking off ML. I think the NOX will be a top tier mid range machine but I am gooing to haft to see it out perform the flagship machine myself.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2017 09:35PM by Diggs4ever.

Tough being pals with a detector manufacturer. As soon as folks figure out that you are a so called “marketing tester” - someone who gets to use a detector ahead of general release and gets to tell the public about his experiences - as soon as that happens - the guy’s credibility gets questioned.

It’s hard to tell your pal that their baby is ugly. Except for that bit of human nature, I’m pretty much predisposed to suspend suspicion about folks in this position unless their persistent behavior reflects an uncritical bias for a certain product or company. Being a tester is great - we need them and need their comments. Being a fan of a product or company os great - we all root for our favorite team. When it becomes a case of “little johnnie one note” endlessly tooting one horn and putting down the competition - then my confidence in that individual’s opinions and judgement vanishes.

I’m very pleased that Brandon cared enough to dive into the creek - even though the water can get a bit murky!

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

Don't get me wrong, there are a few minor negative things that I could say about the product. But, I tell those to the engineers and that's why we are not able to speak about them currently because with any luck they will be going away. As for me keeping my reputation, I really don't have anything to worry about because I believe this product is better in most of the places that I hunt. It's best for me. Doesn't mean it's best for everyone. It's best for me and I can't say that enough.

I'm gonna step in and say a few things.

People are bat crap crazy. I see on the forums all the time, people pissing and moaning about manufacturers relabeling and packaging the same old units and never come out with anything new. Then, when a manufacturer does look like they've came out with something new, the "people" piss and moan because it's NOT the same as what the previous unit(S) were....thus basically wanting a repackaged and relabeled old unit.

What am I getting at? The people that are wanting the Equinox to be exactly like an eTrac or CTX in a different housing, same features, same sounds, same behavior...you get the idea. Sure, those units have played a big role in the last several years of the detecting world but the last thing I want to spend $800 on, is what I already have, in a different suit. That's just me. I want it to be different. Do I think it will be "the next big thing"? I'm not going to go that far and say that, but it has the potential to be one of the better tools in the toolbox, just going by features. I think we are all waiting for the next detector that comes along, that we can take to our favorite ole spot to detect, and make you say "holy cow, how did I miss all THAT?". Of course, nothing replaces having fresh new spots to go to in order to be the person that finds stuff all the time. But it is fun to take a new machine to an old spot and see what it can do. I've only been wow'ed by doing that just a couple times in my detecting adventures. The first time was when I got an F75 after hunting all the previous years with mainly Tesoro machines. I went back to every site we had ever found stuff at, and came home with more than I ever did with the previous machines. It wasn't just a piece of melted camp lead here, and maybe a bullet there...it was literally pouch fulls of bullets, buttons, etc. The next time was when I started using pulse machines in those same spots...the TDI and GPX really opened my eyes to mineral masking/unmasking.

Daniel Tn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm gonna step in and say a few things.
>
> People are bat crap crazy. I see on the forums al
> l the time, people pissing and moaning about manuf
> acturers relabeling and packaging the same old uni
> ts and never come out with anything new. Then, wh
> en a manufacturer does look like they've came out
> with something new, the "people" piss and moan bec
> ause it's NOT the same as what the previous unit(S
> ) were....thus basically wanting a repackaged and
> relabeled old unit.
>
> What am I getting at? The people that are wanting
> the Equinox to be exactly like an eTrac or CTX in
> a different housing, same features, same sounds, s
> ame behavior...you get the idea. Sure, those unit
> s have played a big role in the last several years
> of the detecting world but the last thing I want t
> o spend $800 on, is what I already have, in a diff
> erent suit. That's just me. I want it to be diff
> erent. Do I think it will be "the next big thing"?
> I'm not going to go that far and say that, but it
> has the potential to be one of the better tools in
> the toolbox, just going by features. I think we a
> re all waiting for the next detector that comes al
> ong, that we can take to our favorite ole spot to
> detect, and make you say "holy cow, how did I miss
> all THAT?". Of course, nothing replaces having fr
> esh new spots to go to in order to be the person t
> hat finds stuff all the time. But it is fun to tak
> e a new machine to an old spot and see what it can
> do. I've only been wow'ed by doing that just a co
> uple times in my detecting adventures. The first
> time was when I got an F75 after hunting all the p
> revious years with mainly Tesoro machines. I went
> back to every site we had ever found stuff at, and
> came home with more than I ever did with the previ
> ous machines. It wasn't just a piece of melted ca
> mp lead here, and maybe a bullet there...it was li
> terally pouch fulls of bullets, buttons, etc. The
> next time was when I started using pulse machines
> in those same spots...the TDI and GPX really opene
> d my eyes to mineral masking/unmasking.

Daniel, good post.

I agree with you, to a degree. To a large degree. Would I love to see NEW tech, that out-performs FBS/FBS2 for deep coin hunting? Absolutely. But, I guess my thought is -- as many here have discussed -- making substantial depth gains, into soil with varying degrees of ferro-magnetic particles, on a magnetic, iron core Earth, using electromagnetic machines, is a real challenge. I guess I just don't expect it to happen with VLF frequency domain technology -- and THAT is why I keep talking "FBS this" and "FBS that." I really believe that FBS technology is the best there is (for deep/accurate ID of coins), and I have serious doubts at this point, as far as that envelope has been pushed by the engineers, that anything using VLF frequency-domain tech is likely to surpass FBS anytime soon. So it is from that perspective -- COMBINED WITH the fact that Minelab has stuffed FBS into bulky, HEAVY, ergonomically challenged packages in the past -- that I would be quite happy in this case, were Minelab to simply give me a "re-packaged" FBS unit in a lightweight, waterproof, wireless Equinox-like shell.

WITH THAT SAID, I would, of course, RATHER see something BETTER than FBS come along. I just have serious skepticism that that will happen anytime soon, for a deep coin hunter, at least in a frequency-domain platform. This new, rumored, time-domain project at FTP, should it have accurate discrimination (or some similar project)? Yes, that I could see as being a breakthrough for a deep coin hunter; here's to hoping. Meanwhile, I'm back to hoping that DESPITE it not being FBS/FBS2, the Equinox will somehow prove to be capable of providing similar depth/ID accuracy as an Explorer/E-Trac, the unmasking capability of some of the best (Deus, etc.), and all in that very attractively lightweight, waterproof, wireless package. If it does that, at $899? Then I say Minelab has done an outstanding job on this one. And to take that all one step further... as I have said before, in addition to all of that, if Multi-IQ is indeed some sort of technological advance, that actually directly translates to "in-the-ground" performance gains for us in real-world sites, then I could see the word "obsolete" being used, as divisive as that word apparently is, when the rest of the Equinox's attributes, and price tag, are included.

We shall see.

Thank you Brandon, for wading in and offering your thoughts. As others have said, it's a tough crowd here (and, in some cases, for good reason).

Steve



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/30/2017 03:53AM by steveg.

Dr.Tones, thank you for the work you put into this project, and thank you for whatever info you can give us about it. Amazing how rough it can be around here and other forums...all forums. I hope you are able to keep it from getting you down. As has been said, there is a lot of bat-@#$%& crazy around. Lots of anger, distrust. Alot of folks that aren't happy unless they are unhappy. Sometimes, it seems like that is the only type of folks out there. Truth is just the opposite though. Most folks are pretty reasonable and pleasant. Unfortunately, they tend not to be the loudest voices. Hang in there and be proud that you made positive contributions to a hobby you enjoy. As for the Equinox, I look forward to getting my hands on one. It looks like it will be just the thing for the kind of hunting I do- parks and beaches. If it doesn't work out, I'll sell it. Half the fun is checking out new stuff.

I welcome all criticism with open arms. With out it we can't learn. It's all good guys.

Brandon........ because I 'allow' a substantially greater amount of "Freedom of Speech" on this forum........ the 'shots-fired'........ will be much greater than simply from a BB gun. Perseverance, endurance, stamina, pride (and more) ............. can be challenged.... heavily. Even Mfr's and Chief Design Engineers sometimes take cannon-fire on this forum. IF, IF, IF .... it can be handled...... and constructively analyzed............ a substantially higher order-of-magnitude of advancement will ensue...... in a MUCH shorter time-period. "Time" is critical. Everything in life is temporary............................ up to.....and including....life itself!

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WHAT IF........................... the inventors of BBS................................... invented something called FBS.
WHAT IF........................... the inventors of FBS................................... invented something called Multi-IQ.

(And lest we forsake MPS).

NASA-Tom,

Good stuff. Thought-provoking, as usual. Can you reduce my ignorance a bit, and tell me (or point me to) what MPS is? That's an acronym I am thus far unfamiliar with...

Steve

@DrTones great to hear the airpods are working. I'm glad to loose my geek status when wearing headphones and of top of that a wooly hat in winter.
Makes us more credible towards the younger generation. Although you don't often see them in winter,... they tend to go into hibernation.

Classic headphones and a wireless module, who can fault that.

HH
Johnb

steveg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NASA-Tom,
>
> Good stuff. Thought-provoking, as usual. Can you
> reduce my ignorance a bit, and tell me (or point m
> e to) what MPS is? That's an acronym I am thus fa
> r unfamiliar with...
>
> Steve


Multi-Period Sensing

Some musings, based on lots of thinking (probably too much), and prompted by some ideas from others...

What if Multi-IQ is to FBS what FBS is to BBS, as NASA-Tom sort of implies above (and with deference to Carl/Geotech's information that BBS and FBS are similar in that they both are TWO frequency technologies, while much, if not all, of the "broad band, full band, 17 frequency, 28 frequency" etc. verbiage is more related to creative Minelab marketing, vs. creative Minelab engineering).

What if Multi-IQ is going to be a refinement of FBS2, similar to how FBS2 was a refinement of FBS, which was (apparently) a refinement of BBS?

What if Multi-IQ WILL, as Minelab claims, be a high-end performer, indeed "obsoleting" to at least some degree single-frequency VLF units?

What if the Equinox represents the beginnings of a watershed moment, where now even Minelab is being forced -- by strong competition from XP, Nokta, Makro, AKA, Garrett, etc. -- to offer high-end machines at "mid-range" prices (i.e. competition/capitalism at work), TO THE DEGREE that the days of $2500 flagship detectors in the "hobby" market are over and done with?

What if the Equinox being priced as a "mid-range" detector with "high-end" performance, as Minelab is stating, is their very quiet "admission" that we have entered a new era or new paradigm, in terms of pricing.

What if Minelab determined that the best way to "traverse" this watershed moment was to sort of quietly "sneak" their way into the "new paradigm" (brought on largely by the competition), by introducing a high-end machine, with high-end performance, but at "mid-range" pricing, WHILE MAKING SURE NOT to use any words that would make the move obvious, and draw attention to this new strategy (i.e. NOT directly calling the Equinox a "new flagship," not calling the new multifrequency technology FBS3, etc.)

What if Minelab realizes that the CTX is overpriced, and that the Equinox will hurt sales of the CTX (especially once it "hits the streets," and is shown to be a remarkable performer), BUT -- the market has forced Minelab down this road, whether they like it or not?

What if Minelab marketing came up with the term "Multi-IQ" instead of using "FBS3" solely to avoid making it TOO obvious that the CTX and its capability is being "replaced" by Multi-IQ technology, so as not to inflame the anger of Minelab customers who have purchased (and some who will still purchase) the CTX?

What if the performance of the Equinox really is "astonishing," to use Brandon's words, despite our assumptions that it CAN'T BE, in a "mid-range" machine?

What if the "jumping out of the airplane" stunt, and some of the "over the top" wording from Minelab marketing, was intended to create excessive excitement and drama, as a strategy to draw customers into this "new paradigm," whereas without it, many CTX-type customers (or even E-Trac type customers) may have "yawned" at what they would perceive to be a mid-range performer due to the rather startlingly low price point on the Equinox (again, all reflective of this "watershed" moment where there is a need to move to a new pricing structure for high-end machines without making it "obvious")?

I am not saying any of this is likely to be true, or correct. I'm just speculating on some things that I continue to ponder...

Steve

Thanks, Ozzie.

Steve

Steveg those are a lot of What If’s.

My detectors haven’t gone the O-word,... they have become Classics. A joy to use, promptly making short work of the job at hand.
But Multi-IQ has entered the arena and if it lives up to expectations, they will consolidate their fanbase.
And gather momentum from new owners.

With bluetooth connectivity on board we are one step closer to the I-tector.

A new era indeed!

HH
Johnb

With the selected price-point of the EQIQ:

What if................. large volumes of "Minelab" EQIQ's are sold to large volumes of people who would normally/otherwise never buy/tout/advertise/push "Minelab".

NASA-Tom,

I'd say that the Equinox is a gamble on their part that carries risk. Risk, because if indeed you are right (and I believe you are) that means there will be many people about to have their very first "experience" with Minelab machines. As such, Minelab has an opportunity to make a very good "first impression" with these folks -- but the machines had better be good, or else Minelab will have made a very poor "first impression" with a large number of "new Minelab customers," which would likely cause substantial damage to their reputation going forward.

I have to believe they know this, and won't risk making a bad "first impression." As such, I think the Equinox is likely to be a very good performer.

Steve

Flbchbm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dr.Tones, thank you for the work you put into this
> project, and thank you for whatever info you can g
> ive us about it. Amazing how rough it can be aroun
> d here and other forums...all forums. I hope you a
> re able to keep it from getting you down. As has b
> een said, there is a lot of bat-@#$%& crazy around
> . Lots of anger, distrust. Alot of folks that aren
> 't happy unless they are unhappy. Sometimes, it se
> ems like that is the only type of folks out there.
> Truth is just the opposite though. Most folks are
> pretty reasonable and pleasant. Unfortunately, the
> y tend not to be the loudest voices. Hang in there
> and be proud that you made positive contributions
> to a hobby you enjoy. As for the Equinox, I look f
> orward to getting my hands on one. It looks like i
> t will be just the thing for the kind of hunting I
> do- parks and beaches. If it doesn't work out, I'l
> l sell it. Half the fun is checking out new stuff.

He is a first responder I'm sure some skepticism on a metal detecting forum will not be getting him down to much haha. If you look at other electronics industries this is low impact debating. If your in a position of his you need a tough skin and to be able to endure skeptics just like anyone else does. Metal detecting in general does attract some thin skin individuals I get that as it can be scene constatly with people saying I'm going to leave the forum it"s changing etc etc just to get a pat on the back and some please don't goes.

Good debate guys



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/30/2017 03:17PM by Dr.Tones.

Steve, good musings. I tend to agree with many of your "what-ifs." I've said for a long time that VLF technology is not dead, it just needs the application of smart DSP. Yes, the limits of physics have been reached, but we are just entering the whole next level of DSP, i.e. computerized manipulation of the VLF signals being sent and received.

Here's an analogy with ham radio, my other "geeky" hobby. In ham radio we've seen some huge advancements in based on DSP and software-defined radios. Direct digital-to-analog conversion that in conjunction with powerful computer processors allows for really stunning performance, even though the basic physics of sending RF energy through space hasn't changed. The action nowadays is with the software engineers. If done right, proper software coding can allow for really stunning performance gains. In our case, with metal detectors, taking the incoming VLF signal and "massaging" it with DSP, heck, even sending the VLF signals in certain sequences and frequencies, has the potential for yielding a LOT more information about a target. And multi-frequency operation has the potential to give FAR more information about a target than single frequency operation.

It all comes down to software and processing power. Think of it this way. With analog, we've learned to interpret what the machine is saying in order to better ID targets. The deep iron with the non-ferrous chirp, for instance. Or how the audio breaks up over certain targets that indicates it's a good target next to a bad target rather than just one bad target. And so forth. What DSP allows is for a computer to do this interpretation for us to a large degree, taking out some of the guesswork. The software engineers have to be careful, however. Sloppy coding can actually take away performance compared to analog. The V3i, for example, could have been better if it wasn't "over-digitized." White's tried to take too much of the guesswork out of it and ended up taking away too much of the nuances available for operator interpretation. Many hours of testing and tweaking have to be put in to make sure they get it right. White's was on the right track with th V3i, it just needed better software.

What it appears Minelab has done, and of course this is pure speculation at this point, is taking VLF to the next level of performance with DSP + some serious processing horsepower + very well executed software coding. Essentially bringing computers fully into the building of metal detectors. This was the low hanging fruit in detector design and I'm surprised it hadn't been done sooner. Adding lightweight and waterproof is just icing on the cake.

As do you, I suspect Multi-IQ is in fact superior to FBS, but it most certainly builds on what Minelab has learned developing FBS. If it is superior, then Minelab is doing the right thing by releasing it to the world and raising the bar for all detector manufacturers going forward. Minelab will almost totally capture the mid-market with the EQ, then I suspect they will soon release a top end model to replace the CTX with all the bells and whistles like improved target trace, color display, and so forth, but based on Multi-IQ.

I certainly have my hopes up for the EQ, and I'm not usually one to get all excited about new releases, but based on what we already know, plus the up-'til-now largely untapped potential of DSP, it seems like it will be the real McCoy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/30/2017 03:40PM by wayfarer.

Very, very interesting, wayfarer. I do think that with Multi-IQ, there is room there for Minelab to eventually put out a "flagship" using that technology -- color screen, target trace (or something like it), more "bells and whistles." But, I really do wonder if the days of $2500 flagships in the hobby market are over. Gold machines are different; there is more room in my mind for GPX-type machines to remain expensive, given the price of gold. But hobby machines? It seems to me to be at least possible that the amount of competition has really changed the market, and I think it would be hard for Minelab to consolidate enough market share to combat what otherwise requires a lower price point -- even for high-end machines.

In any case, interesting stuff there shared from your amateur radio experience. Some of what you are saying there in all of that seems to line up (as best as I can tell) with some of what Brandon said in his latest post...

Steve