Some In Field Depth & Separation Tests On Undug Targets Between The Etrac & GT With 12x10 Coil

I understand we are more than welcome to share our views and comparisons of different machines on this forum, so long as it's done in a civil way. Here's my contribution...

A friend and I have been extensively comparing undug targets in the field over the last few months. His Etrac against my GT with the 12x10 coil, which vastly improves separation and depth over the stock 10" Tornado...Which is an excellent DD coil, it's just that the 12x10 is even better. Anyway, I'm not a brand loyal guy and have owned many machines by many companies over the years. The only two things I care about are depth and separation. Well, besides tone alerts and high resolution VDI. Everything else is bells and whistles and eye candy to me and doesn't really do a dime's worth of difference for performance IMHO. Anyway, so if I didn't see the GT keeping up in depth and separation then it'd be bye-bye GT and onto an Etrac. The results of these comparisons on BADLY masked coins or super deep ones have been eye opening, and made me change a few things I once believed were the only way to unmask better on machines as well.

Anyway, here's that thread. It also contains a bit about the 3 Explorers I owned and how they compared to the GT as well...

[www.detectingequipment.com]

This is just my experience and thus my opinion folks *in my soil*, so if you don't agree and have different experiences please share those with us but try to keep it civil. I'm not looking for a flame war here. Just giving my honest opinion, which I understand is what this forum prides it's self on...Letting people compare machines and share what they found *for themselves*, maybe not for everybody.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2012 04:32PM by critterhunter.

Your findings/thoughts/writings seem to be well-founded.

Hey, thanks Tom. Was dreading what you might say as I hear you know your stuff. :') All I can report is what I've seen with my own eyes and ears. If it was otherwise I'd say so and move on to something else. The right coil can do wonders for a machine and help them keep up in some respects to other machines. That's why I'd tell any Explorer user, Etrac user, Sovereign user, or anybody with any other machine for that matter to consider a good aftermarket coil before deciding they need to move on. There are really some wonderful coils out there, but not all of them work equally as well on different machines. That's why you need to ask around and find out what coils work well on what machines. The same coil on one brand of machine that works great can be a total dud on others.

Hence the quantification/qualification/justification of validated/certified scientific testing........... starting with a test-garden.

It really does appear that a good coil can make a huge difference. As you said, you can take an older machine and put a cutting edge coil on it and keep up (maybe surpass) with a newer machine.

A bit of my worry with the CTX is that chip in the coil. I hope it doesn't stop aftermarket coils from surfacing. I already miss that 6X8 SEF and 13" Detech on my E-Trac. I had the 12"X13" NEL Tornado but the weight difference was too noticeable, so I went with the 13" Detech. Bryce on Finds Explorer forum, who seems to have a propensity for coil testing and comparisons, said the 13" Detech on the explorere was better in every way he tested (except maybe a tad less sensitive if I remember correctly) than the Tornado.

Albert

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hence the
> quantification/qualification/justification of
> validated/certified scientific testing...........
> starting with a test-garden.


Glag to hear you say that, Tom. I've often been a big advocate of both test gardens and air testing. Sure, it doesn't replicate real world conditions, but you can still gleam a lot of useful information on how a detector behaves by doing these sorts of tests. My motto is you can't ever experiment too much. Some people say test gardens or air testing is worthless. To some extent I tend to agree, but only in the respect that real world experience is the best teacher, as with most things in life. But beyond that, just because there is probably more validity to real world conditions and the possibilites those situations present, that doesn't mean there isn't much to be learned under controlled testing, which to me includes air testing and test gardens.

I doubt if you will ever see third party coils for the new Minelab. None were made for the AT Pro because of the waterproof connection. Here you have a chip in the coil and waterproof connection. If the detector does what it is said to do I don't think you will miss third party coils. Take the Deus. I have the Deus with both coils. The larger coil I got for ground coverage. But with the target seperation and response of the smaller coil I think I will be satisfied with it for as long as I own the Deus. I do not agree with your statement Critterhunter that recovery speed is overrated. Yes you can slow your swing for an adjustment, but masked targets are plentiful and not every detector will find them. JMHO.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2012 08:42PM by goodmore.

earthmansurfer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It really does appear that a good coil can make a
> huge difference. As you said, you can take an
> older machine and put a cutting edge coil on it
> and keep up (maybe surpass) with a newer machine.
>
> A bit of my worry with the CTX is that chip in the
> coil. I hope it doesn't stop aftermarket coils
> from surfacing. I already miss that 6X8 SEF and
> 13" Detech on my E-Trac. I had the 12"X13" NEL
> Tornado but the weight difference was too
> noticeable, so I went with the 13" Detech. Bryce
> on Finds Explorer forum, who seems to have a
> propensity for coil testing and comparisons, said
> the 13" Detech on the explorere was better in
> every way he tested (except maybe a tad less
> sensitive if I remember correctly) than the
> Tornado.
>
> Albert

Sure, that's the way I feel. I really hesitated to post the link to these field tests, but hey I call it like I see it and so be it. Not looking for flame wars and I won't engage in those or personal attacks if people take offense. I'm not saying the GT is a better machine than an Explorer or an Etrac. All these machines have their own unique strengths and weaknesses. All I'm saying is that a good aftermarket coil can make all the difference in terms of depth or separation, to where one machine can at least match the abilities of another in some cases. If I didn't see it for myself I'd have left and moved on to something else, because in terms of depth and unmasking I don't like hunting with a guy who I feel is carrying a "better stick" in those two respects. That's why I've owned pretty much every brand over the years, and compared machines to others in the field that I didn't own, and let that be my guide as to where to go from there.

Personaly, I think in terms of field strength, "multifrequency" (much debate on the realities of that out there), and ground handling capabilities, any of these BBS or FBS machines are pretty much maxed out. The only real or at least easy way to increase depth or separation on them is by a better coil. Want max separation abilities? Plenty of great little coils like the S-5, X-5, 8x6, and so on. Want more depth? Then how about a WOT, 13" Ultimate, or 12x10.

The chip(s) in the coil thing worries me too about this new machine. From the sound of it Minelab had every intention to keep others from making coils for it. Probably they saw all the sales of small coils for better separation, with very few people opting for the 8" Minelab coil for that. Then of course many opted for a 12x10 instead of a Pro Coil on their older Explorers, thus costing them some sales there as well. But, let's not forget what happened to Sony with Beta Max. They tried to control the format, which was a better format than VHS, but VHS was freely licensed to other manufacturers and that was the end of that story. Not being able to buy from a good selection of aftermarket coils could really hurt this machine's sales. After all, even if it does have some new ability to unmask stuff, do you honestly think a 12x10 can't even up those odds? If not, then how about an 8x6 or some other small coil? Or, if it does get a bit better ID at depth (I hear only in some rare bad soils and not elsewhere), then what about a 12x10 or Ultimate coil to perhaps even up those odds on another Minelab? I think you see where this is going.

goodmore Wrote:
> I do not agree with your statement
> Critterhunter that recovery speed is overrated.
> Yes you can slow your swing for an adjustment, but
> masked targets are plentiful and not every
> detector will find them. JMHO.

Regardless of how fast a machine's recovery speed is, it can't see targets distinctly and separately by way of that alone if the coil won't allow it. It's all about what the coil sees, or more to the point what the coil doesn't see (trash) while it's trying to see what it wants to see. That is the first and most important deciding factor of unmasking, or more precisely separation. Discrimination level, recovery speed, and separation are the three factors that largely make up a machine's ability to unmask a target. Recovery speed issues are for the most part under the user's control by way of slowing down your sweep and also with proper coil technique (wiggling and such) while investigating between targets. If you can't control your sweep speed then by all means a fast machine is a must have.

Lacking the ability on the Sovereign to increase recovery speed, you can compensate with sweep speed and largely make it an non-issue. And lacking the ability to lower iron rejection, you're then left with only one other way to improve it's unmasking ability that is still in your control. That being to improve it's separation, and to do that that means a good sharp detection line or the obvious choice of using a smaller coil. I've found, oddly, that by improving left/right separation by use of the 12x10 coil, the machine feels like it's recovery speed has been sped up. Of course it hasn't really, but it's reaction time between targets has in a sense because it's more cleanly going from "rejection mode" to "accepting mode" as it passes say iron and onto a coin.

I'm not arguing that any one of these three factors (separation, recovery speed, or discrimination level) are more important than one another. Well, I would say separation (being coil choice) is of primary importance, but in terms of lower iron discrimination levels on one machine versus a sharp detection field with high iron rejection on another, the outcome seen with my own eyes and ears is a total wash. I can see no advantage of one over the other in the end on badly masked coins. There are two ways to skin that cat, so to speak. A couple of years ago I would have told you you were crazy if you told me that, and so I realize it's highly controversial to say such a thing. But, yet, I've seen it for myself so I have no choice but to believe that there are several paths to equal the same end results. Ideally I would like to lower iron rejection to zero, but not because (now) I'd fear missing targets, but rather because I like to use my ears to "map out" a site, and that includes hearing everything.

This is why the industry does not go running to Tom with a new machine.
Fear of falling flat on there face.

Not saying thats the case with 3030 , but a risk many would not want to take.

"masked targets are plentiful and not every
> detector will find them. JMHO. "

I've seen this happen when there was iron masking a Barber dime .......The Soveriegn could not read either one .......My buddy's ETrac was the detector that could read both due to the extended range that it was able to read ....iron as well as Silver at the same time .. ..... It was clear as a bell !!






"Well, I would say separation (being coil choice) is of primary importance, but in terms of lower iron discrimination levels on one machine versus a sharp detection field with high iron rejection on another, the outcome seen with my own eyes and ears is a total wash"

How do you know what's in the ground if your detector is not reading any iron, and the iron is taking presidence and masking a good target ? .....You won't hear the iron, and you won't hear the good target either .......Granted if the target is far enough away , a slower sweep and a sharp coil will pick up the seperation , but for the targets that are too close together that are being masked, you don't even know that they exist .......Tom wrote an article on masking .......Check it out .... It's a good read .....It's on this site .....

BTW ...Your 10 x 12 SEF coil must have been an exeptional one , because I bought one shortly after you bought yours , and I did not find the fine line that you have when running your coil .......A great coil in it's own right , but that razor sharp edge was not something that I had using mine ....I had better luck with my Sunray 5 inch coil when in trashy area's where I needed better seperation .....


Here ya go ..........[www.dankowskidetectors.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2012 11:00PM by synthnut.

Aaahhhh,love it! I swung a sov xs as my main unit for eleven years. I tried a coue explorers during that time, and ended up selling them due to..i love the sov tones and I didnt do anybetter with the E. All my buddies use explorers,and I really dont recall them ever getting a signal that I checked and didnt get with the sov. I was usin g the older,solid white S-12 btw,or in extreme trash,the s-5. The one area that the sov does not do well for me is in the carpet of square nails sites. Since now my main focus is relics in mining camp areas,I sold my beloved sovs,and been using the gb pro,old bandido and at pro. But if I ever get a deep turf machine again,it will be a good ole sov,and Ill have to try one of the new coils. Thanks for posting this and reafirm what I already believed. Ray

The Deus can find coins in iron that the Sovereign will never hear during a normal hunt. You might be able to find the coin after I tell yo where it is. But during a normal hunt in an iron infested site the Sovereign just doesn't have it. I know I have a Sovereign also. It is a great detector. One of my all time favorites. But I stay out of the trash with it.

Hi Goodmoore,unfortunately the Deus is out of my price range right now,or I would have one. I remember hitting a demo once with my sov...cant recall which coil,but probably the s-5. I hit it hard and from different angles,but was disapointed with the results. Finally,I broke out my tesoro,and couldnt believe the amount of targets I missed. Was a lesson learned. But we have a ghetto park in Stockton ,Ca we call Wino Park. It is literally a sea of wino caps and pulltabs. This is where my Sov shined the best. You literally cannot move your coil two inches without hitting trash,but the sov at a snails pace can sniff out the barbers. And for deep coins....its very har to beat.

I too LOVE the tones on the Sovereign .....I use to call them "Sexy " ...... The Sovereign is a great machine for what it does it does well and in reality, you can find a BUNCH of good targets with it ....I've owned just about every model Sovereign and they all work well but was partial to the GT ..... The unfortunate part of having an automatic iron discriminator is that if the iron is masking a good target , you will never hear the good target ......You can talk about how many good targets you find with the Sovereign , and that the Soveriegn is as deep or deeper than the E Trac and you can hear the same targets , but this is ONLY and I repeat ONLY if the targets are NOT being masked by iron ..... You are only digging targets that you can hear ...If you can 't hear them , why would you dig ? ...... In my case , I walked right past a barber dime that the E Trac was able to hear WITHOUT a slow swing, WITHOUT the Soveriegn 'wiiggle " and WITHOUT having to change a lot of settings to get it to come in clearly .....I use to buy detectors based on how deep they could go ......NOW , I'm more concerned about how well they discriminate , how well they seperate , and how well they handle iron and to a greater extent , how they handle masking .... How well it handles Gold is another feature I look for ...... Even though it's not a Saltwater machine, I actually do better on combined wet/ dry beaches with my AT Pro than I do with my Sovereign ..... It's not as deep as the Sovereign , but it discrimnates better , and handles Gold far better .... I'm far from bashing the Sovereign .....I still own one , but there are other macines out there that I have better results with ......NOTHING sounds like a Sovereign !!......It's a tone you never forget !!.....JIm

Short and sweet Sov's were not as deep as the Explorer series or gave as much info and may be the most modded unit ever and Ken Herre devised some great mods but they did give that mellow soft sound on silver coins and could usually tell even before I dug...Certainly many did well with either and yes many original Sov's and Explorers still going stong in the hands of experienced operators. That ought to tell you something about Minelab build quality no matter which is your favorite...

Synthnut, then perhaps you had a 12x10 with some sloppy windings in it that made for a fuzzy DD detection line, because I've never used a DD coil with such a sharp razor like detection line in the left/right perspective running through it. But don't take my word for it, surf the forums for several recent buyers of the 12x10 on the Sovereign who have the exact same remarks to be made about the sharpness of it's field. You can also find many FBS users who have good things to say about it's separation even compared to the already excellent abilities in that respect of the Pro Coil.

This dove tails nicely into the Explorer discussion. *In my soil*, which tends to range from moderate to highly mineralized from site to site, the 3 Explorers I owned over the years never got as deep on coins for me as my GT even usiong the stock 10" Tornado coil that comes with the GT. I ran those machines every which way in settings you can think of, dug by sound alone, took chances on real iffy stuff, kept sensitivity low or maxed it out to a bit unstable, and yet I never got the depths I've been able to achieve on the GT.

Why is that? Two possibilities come to mind. First being the stock 10" coil on the Explorers. Worst coil I've ever used. It had a real "fuzzy" field that is one of the reasons why pinpointing was such a pain on it, and also why I found separation to be lacking to me. My one theory is that the more "fuzzy" field these coils generated were soaking in too much "ground stew" and thus degrading targets at depth. Here's an example that relates to that. I've heard many say the 15x12 got deeper than stock for them on coin sized targets. In my soil, I found the 15x12 got less depth on a dime than stock. While I could ride the sensitivity very high with this coil, I found that running it about 1/3rd lower than max stable seemed to produce the best depth, or at least ID at depth. I think that running at higher sensitivity levels, while stable, was just soaking up too much ground signal.

So, in my soil, I figure about a 12 or maybe 13" DD coil is about max size to still see improvements in depth on coin sized targets. The 12x10, although 2" longer than the 10" Tornado, I feel actually rides on and sees less soil matrix than the 10" stock coil...Due to the less fuzzy, more tight left/right field of the detection line. That's also probably partially why this coil allows me to run much higher sensitivity settings than the stock coil without falsing or becoming unstable.

So I believe that the 10" stock coil on the Explorer, which isn't nearly as good IMHO as the stock 10" coil on the GT, was perhaps the reason why my Explorers never did all that well in my soil in terms of depth compared to other people in different soil conditions. That's also why I plan to buy another used EII down the road and stick a 12x10 on it, as I do miss tweaking and looking at a computer screen here and there on a hunt. It won't replace my GT, but it will be beside it for those days that my mood strikes me to use one or the other. I've heard many old Explorer guys say putting a Pro Coil or 12x10 on their machines gave them a whole new machine.

My only other *possible* theory about the FBS machines not doing as well in my soil is due to the higher frequencies that go up to 100khz versus 25khz for the BBS units. There might be some kind of interaction with mineral reflection of these higher frequency levels. I found my Explorers were more picky about riding the edge of sensitivity, and often required constant adjustment in that respect compared to my GT when even hunting short distances. I can tell you that I'm not the first person to say these things, as I've read numerous owners of both FBS and BBS units that have said the BBS units ran deeper in smoother on their beaches, or on their land sites as well.

More than probably I blame it on the old 10" coil, because a friend's Etrac is doing just as well (but no better) at depth or unmasking as my GT. So that sort of discounts the frequency theory for me, and lays blame on coil choice at least in my soil, but that still doesn't discount what others have said about FBS being more unstable or getting less depth in their soil conditions. I know of one guy who owned the Etrac since it came out and knew it well. His soil is even more mineralized than mine from the sound of it, and he said that his GT is finding targets that his Etrac just plain out and out missed, and at further depths.

I can relate that I've gridded several small well marked areas extensively with my 3 Explorers, from every direction and angle you can think of, and thought there was nothing left to be found at those spots. The GT has proved otherwise, as I've dug wheats and silvers deeper at those spots that were clean and not masked, and well within the depth abilities I've heard others report of the Explorer, yet I simply never saw them with my Explorers. I *know* I didn't miss those coins. One that comes is a standing liberty quarter at about 8". In my soil 8 or so inches was pushing my Explorers, so I think it was just out of reach for it. With the GT is rather common for me to be popping 8 or 9" wheats or silvers on a regular basis, even in dry conditions. And I've dug my two deepest coins with it ever at 11", and this was also a spot next to a tree that I had gridded extensively with my Explorers and I know I must have passed over them numerous times. Both coins gave perfect IDs and a loud report on the GT. I was shocked, and almost gave up on them thinking they were large pieces of trash having dug so deep and still not finding anything with my Pro Pointer.

Anyway, not knocking the Explorer or the Etrac. Both awesome machines. Just saying that with the right coil I've seen enough to know the GT can do just as well in depth or unmasking. Every single one of the badly masked coins my friend had me check, that were so badly masked that they nulled all the way around them but in one tiny spot for both of us, the 12x10 has easily seen just as well. Also, one day I hit a real deep coin whisper that sounded like it was at least 11 or 12" deep or more. Wasn't nearly as loud as the two 11" coins I've dug. I was running full blast sensitivity and the machine was still stable. I called my Etrac friend over to check it and he couldn't get a signal. His sensitivity was Auto+3 and only a few more clicks or so from being full blast, so he raised the sensitivity the last little bit in manual and then he was able to hear the target too, but it was very soft for him as well. That's just one of the tests on undug targets that tells me both of these machines are pretty much equal in depth when the GT is using the 12x10 compared to his Pro Coil.

Besides the badly masked coins, there was another that ended up being a silver quarter on edge at about 8 or so inches deep and very close to a large piece of iron. Both machines got a funky signal all the way around with a bit of nulling mixed in, but gave a good signal in one tight spot. That one alone was impressive to me about what a good coil can do for a machine.

As far as me not finding those coins if he didn't call me over to check them. I don't think so, as I've found just as badly masked coins myself that I've called him over to check as well. Again, same quality of response from EVERY direction by both machines. Not a dime's worth of difference. If I would have saw otherwise then it would have been bye-bye GT and hellow Etrac. Actually, it would have been bye bye GT and hellow Explorer with a 12x10, because I have read of guys who swear their Explorers are better on silver at depth. Well, they at least say their Explorers have better audio on silver at depth, while the Etrac has a bit better conductivity ID at depth, so it's a trade off either way. I go for the audio myself, and that's another reason why I like the GT.

But beyond all that, having helped my friends set up their Etracs (I did the research on the net for them) and used it here and there in the field, I don't care for it as much as the Explorer. The VDI system on the Explorer seems to give much more target detail, especially when watching the crosshairs, which is what I like to do. By compressing everything into the 12th line I feel a lot of target traits are lost by trying to watch what the crosshair is doing.