1000nth post and frequency question!

So If the Impact does better in iron with the 20 khz, how will that relate with the Equinox's 40 khz? Would the Nox have better target separation in heavy iron sites or is 20 khz the "sweet spot"?

My take.

Higher freq can get a detectorists when hunting in iron some benefits of separation/unmasking.

There is no exact right answer to your question.
Why?
We don't know what we don't know as far as what is beneath our coils.

Now, generally speaking there will be tradeoffs, depth, the response to higher and lower conductors, soil minerals, target orientation, and the target's orientation to the ferrous.

Odds on favorite targets to be discovered using higher freq like 40khz are real small nonferous, but there could be exceptions- in areas already hunted using 6khz-22.5khz detectors.

So in saying all this, it really depends on the site, and a person's goals, and just how much time that wish to put into a site.

Could just one gold coin be found and make the whole journey worth it?
I think so.

Based on my Deus experience so far using HF coils. Looks like the cutoff IMO is around 30khz maybe a little less.
Going higher here I don't think the return is there for the relic/coin Hunter trying to be all they can be.

Could the Equinox show me something different to make me change my mind?
Time will tell.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2017 06:25PM by Sod-buster.

I believe every new detector seems to see the ground a bit differently and often for the better. Hence, many units will seem to renew a 'worked out' site. I visit my favored sites with each new unit and have found a big piece of heavy gold chain and some silver dimes I couldn't believe I missed and I knew they were there for many years.

The usual story is that higher freq costs depth and gains sensitivity to smaller low conductors (foil, gold, etc.) hence the Gold Bug 2 is the classic poster boy for small gold VLF units. Like many things here is a confluence of diminishing returns once the sweet spot has been reached. The killer factor in detecting is that environmental variables are wildcards that can turn any consistent settings and capacity unstable or impotent to some degree. This is why there will not be a perfect detector until we can measure and adjust automatically with high degree of accuracy.

Congrats on the thousandth post mark. I have exceeded that on other forums where I need to educate and correct more often. You guys are far sharper and only need a 2 cent donation occasionally (WINK).

Seriously, I think I've learned more listening in on discussions here and studies from masters like Tom & Keith than all the other forms combined. Thanks guys! Any forgive me if I regurgitate a bit now and then to see if it will be agreed to or corrected.

Happy New detector!

Past(or)Tom
Using a Legend, a Deus 2, an Equinox 800, a Tarsacci MDT 8000, & a few others...
with my beloved, fading Corgi, Sadie

Some good info on that subject here:

[www.youtube.com]

ok here is a simple question....how does a detector separate targets that are tight together...... If a silver coin is under a steel coin does the frequency see the steel or the silver??

guvmore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ok here is a simple question....how does a detecto
> r separate targets that are tight together......
> If a silver coin is under a steel coin does the fr
> equency see the steel or the silver??

Great question! I have experienced this a few times. In this case, i was using a 3030 and got a weak 12-44 ish type signal. I thought it was a deep signal, so i dug a deep plug and got no signal in the hole. I checked the plug and just three inches from the surface was a rusted steel penny on top of a silver Washington. It was reading the quarter a weak deep signal(just a chirp). I would say yes is the answer.

guvmore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ok here is a simple question....how does a detecto
> r separate targets that are tight together......
> If a silver coin is under a steel coin does the fr
> equency see the steel or the silver??


A simple question but no simple answer.

A detector's freq is remember based on time.
So lower frequency means less info gathered over the same time period vs higher frequency.
Remember a coil has to be swept over a target.

So, would a detector made 15 years ago running at 19 kHz, on average be as good as a 19khz detector made today.
Assume the exact same coil on both detectrors.

The answer is IMO No.
The latter made detector would be better.
Why?

Because with more modern components (faster) the data handled is handled faster and better.

Now, your question.
Anytime nonferrous and ferrous are mixed (close proximity) a tug of war can exist.

And different models detectors handle this close proximity differently (to a degree).

XP Deus is one IMO that leads the pack (for coil size).

This tug of war may wind up after detector computes to yielding a clear nonferrous tone to user, a mediocre nonferrous tone to user, an even less mediocre tone too user, and a ferrous tone.

For example.
The mighty Deus.
It has incremental digital disc capability.

How could this incremental disc help a person.

We could hunt a site using 2 tones disc level 6.
Disc level 6 btw will knock out most nails.
And hunt away gridding and all.
And dig the nonferous tones.

Have we cleaned out the site by doing the above?
Maybe or maybe not.
If lots of ferrous, nails, nail bits, chances are we have NOT.

So next we can hunt the site again and dial disc lower, like 5.5 and dig all the hits.
Will we dig some nonferrous finds?
We could.
Will we dig some ferrous finds?
Very likely we will.

We can contine to rehunt and keep choosing lower disc.
Could we make some more nonferrous find?
Yes

Now, there will be a point where using low disc will yield for all practical purposes huge amounts of ferrous percentage wise, hence not common sense to go any further.
And yes, some finds nonferrous could be found that would be deemed in the truest sense to be incidental nonferrous discovered with ferrous.

Not all detectors have the ability to provide this extremely small nuance tonally as a nonferrous target gets pulled (dominated moreso) into the ferrous range.
Or maybe said another way here, the audio may be being provided a lot of other detectors,,but lacks intelligence to user so they can decphier.

Now using say a 9" coil, these nonferrous targets that give this medicre tone (indicating nonferous), would a smaller coil make these same nonferous sound better tonally to a user?
It would depend.
Maybe not or maybe so.
Why?
It would depend on the orientation of the ferrous and nonferrous, and how the coil fields align to the "particular scenario".
Beleive it or not a larger coil could infact give a better signal, less compromised say with example above an 11" vs a 9" coil.

Now all the comments above, assume a user is running Deus to be the best it can be as far as separation (freq wise) and (reactivity wise) for any given target scenario.

And saying what I have above, Deus doesn't clean out all sites.
Remember Deus is limited for how small a coil one can run.

Very possible a user could, take Nokta relic, Nokta Impact, White's MXT, White's V3i, and other detectors that have smaller coils available for them.
These can hunt behind Deus and make finds.
But don't expect your finds pouch to be runneth over.

I could also have used Nokta Impact in example (and other detector models too) above using stock coil, even the midsized dd coil.
And yes a person could go in behind it too, and make finds,,even use the Impact with smallest coil and it can compete with itself.

I have read some comments concerning Equinox.
The comments do have my eyebrows raised a bit.
As far as how using multi freq performs as far a separation/ unmasking goes.

Here is an article, very related to your question.
[www.dankowskidetectors.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2017 03:39AM by Sod-buster.

Be like your Dad and go for the iffies......some of his goodies would stack up well with some of the 30 yr, pro's...to answer your question guesstimates at best awful hard to prove one way or the other....

Dan-Pa. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Be like your Dad and go for the iffies......some o
> f his goodies would stack up well with some of the
> 30 yr, pro's...to answer your question guesstimate
> s at best awful hard to prove one way or the other
> ....

LOL Dan, you don't really believe he "goes for the iffies" do you? I'M the one that digs iffies He is the cherry picker. A direct quote from him, "I don' dig it unless it sounds like silver". He is lucky. His finds are amazing though.

Sod Buster , Beyonder thanks for posts. hh

As the late Jack Gifford stated.."Frequency isn't everything" Holds true..

If the Impact unmask very very well on 20Khz ( which it does) doesn't mean the equinox will be a better unmasker at 30 Khz...Or say a 30Khz Impact may not do as well as a 20Khz Impact.

Higher Freqs to have the ability to do hyper drive things better than lower freq..and by hyper drive I mean..faster shutdown between targets,ability to utilize tighter DD coils to achieve faster reaction times,ability to offer higher hyper gains without running amok...In other words higher freqs feel at home running fast.

yet to say go from 20Khz to 30 or 40 Khz does not equate into all of the sudden finding twice more targets in iron..where as when you jump from 5Khz to 20 khz you see stellar gains in dissecting non ferrous from ferrous in heavily polluted sites.Especially the more severely intermingled targets..

One thing I've noticed over my detecting span is saya 10Khz or so unity give or take pretty well put hurt on iron sites.When you go up to the higher freqs and go back to those sites what you find is lower conductor non ferrous intermingled in Ferrous MOST of the time smaller buttons,smaller lead bullets,smaller than say dime size targets or irregular shaped non ferrous bits like toe taps and watch keys and thinner coins on edge etc...That's is if the higher freqs are set up with exacting steps like tone breaks and small coils and faster recovery.

I've ran a few different machines above 20Khz in iron and for the most part they see the stuff the 20khz sees the main advantage is you can see some smaller lower things in ferrous trash..Yet not alot..and its mostly starting to get into the micro stuff..Plus your starting to have problems with cleaner intelligent iron rejection so at times you may have to reduce gain or alter settings to get back to intelligence ..Always trade off for everything in detecting ..

Where the higher than say 20khz (for reference) really shows off is in terms of seeing really small or really low conductors or both...And can really make a site come alive to small low things in more open areas..Think smaller Jewelry (earrings unclasped chains) and gold specimens isolated from trash..

It sees smaller yet depth can start to suffer on larger things....20khz may hit a dime target at 8 inches but 30 may not..yet 30khz may hit a gold dollar gold coin at 6 inches on edge and 20khz wont..

Yet like Gifford said freqs not everything..So there is exceptions to the rules and if a manufacturer say builds a machine on a higher freq but its on more of a Coin platform in its core DNA it can be different..we know have units pushing past 20 khz that are not really a dedicated gold machine..Yet gold machines are usually above that freq for a reason and coin machines are usually lower than that for a reason..

Take the Deus since its able to change some parameters with reactivity...run it on 30khz and slow it down it's not a fun machen to run and it feels boggy..best way to run that freq is fast then it feels right.(That's why gold machines are built of higher freqs and are naturally fast runners).Now take the newly released 30khz DeepTech Vista Gold Gain (DVGG) Its not as fast as machine as the Deus is on fast reactivity yet it has way more punch when both are compared on coins in the soil..Yet it sees small just as well and blends intermingled ferrous and non ferrous reports intelligently in iron very well EXCEEDINGLY well..It's based off a more coin relic DNA but uses the 30Khz..So theres a case of utilizing higher freqs to do double duty by core design.

So till the Equinox comes out there's no way to know what we will see from it..are they thinking 30Khz will be gold prospecting or relic and coin DNA??In other words have they preset the stuff we cant change inside that machines DNA by freq selection to utilize it for one or the other or maybe they have blended a bit of both??Deep down programming we can't change..The Equinox audio doesn't sound extremely fast seems more like a Xterra sounds but it may have some great blending and maybe some great Audio intelligence from that..Fast is isnt Everything if it becomes indecipherable in the audio

At the end of it though you will see smaller non ferrous targets with 30Khz Vs 20khz..will you see better unmasking say above cuff button sizes in iron??How small do you want to go??? IS the site worthy??Is your aim micro jewelry, nuggets etc.

I honestly feel your pushing the limits right now if your happy with cuff sizes and bigger in iron and or out by sticking with 20khz..with the way audio and filters and such have been implemented as of late on 20khz, the 30khz is for more super specialty use for Iron work..That is sites cleaned out already and you want more non ferrous TINY stuff..

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

PhDtector - Thanks for sharing that 14-minute video. I validate that video....... and nearly endorse it. Spectacular! Although it was only demonstrated on a 2-Dimentional plane....... the silver coin surrounded by quite a few ferrous nails...... really drives home a point. I only wish 'real-world' would have been brought in.... by simply pushing that silver coin 1cm deeper than the rest of the various Fe nails that were on a 2-Dimensional plane. Then................ the test would become a 3-Dimentional 'real-world' scenario. So far...... to date.......... the XP series units are the only units (that I'm aware of) ..... that can perform (and succeed) in this test. The timing of this video is uncanny...... is of essence ...... and rather apropos for folks like Mark Lawrie to view.

SOOOooooo much more to say; yet, out of time!

Tom, is this the test you mean?
[youtu.be]

The gent Gary in UK.
I do follow him quite often.

One thing I wish he would have done in the video above.

Is to have used a round nonferrous object, not disc shaped.

Why?

I have a strong hunch, the HF coils (both) XP designed and made, are engineered specifically for gold nuggets.
Meaning flatter, irregular shaped, even porous objects both of the HF coils do very well.

But a round shaped target (marble shaped) like musket ball, bbs, cannister shot, Buck balls,,these seem to give the HF coils trouble.
And when I say trouble here, I don't exactly mean Deus doesn't detect them, but the audio will play tricks on a user.
Will have strange signature, user may be betting ferrous many times.
So, IMO good thing gold coins aren't round and trying to find using these HF coils.

I thought at first it was soil minerals causing.
Don't think so.
Have witnessed this too many times on round nonferrous shallower too, mid depths, and deeper.

So it could be said, it is not purely about frequency as far as detection of nonferrous objects.

Now, it has been said by some here, Deus and LF coils using versions 2.0 and 3.2 didn't like irregular shaped nonferrous as well as disc shaped more smooth.
Haven't seen very much Deus version 4.0 LF feedback posted here since release.

Also, I don't have enough data to prove just yet, but highly suspect.
Deus using both HF coils , especially the elliptical HF coil, square nails will fool detector.
I think this same fooling here not as probable on more modern round nails- with both kinds of nails being oriented the same/similar in the ground (straight to slightly bent).
I don't attribute this "fooling" to composition but instead shape.
Need to hunt some more modern sites with round nails and hopefully can have more confidence.

Will be interesting to see how Equinox compares/competes here with various targets overall.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2017 01:35PM by Sod-buster.

ghound.......yes...... sort of. I'd rather see it in an air-test (at first)....... so as to have all of the other multitude of variables removed. And....... it is easier to see/witness/understand when performed in an airtest. But...... GOOD video. I just don't know how the 71 is set up.

I can't remember my settings on the Rutus, but i do remember it done this test with ease, and with usable hunting settings. It's a cracking machine.

Here's another couple with the Signum, one's an air test as such with a silver dime, the other with real old rusty nails and a small hammered coin.
Personally i find these 3d tests more useful for setting and learning my detectors for my type of hunting ground, the more i use/understand the Signum the more i like it.

[youtu.be]
[youtu.be]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2017 07:41PM by ghound.

Beyonder-Pa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> guvmore Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ok here is a simple question....how does a detec
> to
> > r separate targets that are tight together.....
> .
> > If a silver coin is under a steel coin does the
> fr
> > equency see the steel or the silver??
>
> Great question! I have experienced this a few time
> s. In this case, i was using a 3030 and got a weak
> 12-44 ish type signal. I thought it was a deep sig
> nal, so i dug a deep plug and got no signal in the
> hole. I checked the plug and just three inches fro
> m the surface was a rusted steel penny on top of a
> silver Washington. It was reading the quarter a we
> ak deep signal(just a chirp). I would say yes is t
> he answer.

Interesting plug...the chirp noise happened to me years ago, I was hunting the beach at low tide, I probably would not of dug the chirp if on land...it was very deep on my target but lot of junk around.
Man what a surprise it was a solid silver war medal shaped like a silver dollar...still have it somewhere. The beep was a chirp though forget type of md may have been a Fisher?

Yes always easier if people do videos if they can.

Easier to show things than tell thing's.

RA-71 is very good at co locates.especially with concentric..I highly suspect the RA is somehow engineered from a X-terra..Sounds like it and alot behaves like it.

G-hound have you tried the Chaser??In real world hunts it has nabbed some stuff in iron the RA 71 left??

One item was a real head scratcher too..Dug a target, half a toe tap both units hit it well before digging..filled hole up then went on came back by hole with chaser few minutes later got a hit over filled hole..checked with RA71 and heard nothing but iron tones everywhere..took a chance and dug it hole back out..and it was other half of toe tap..

I have found the Chaser really likes disturbed dirt..

Never one machine that does it all..freqs,, responses..coil combos, etc...

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

I've not tried the Chaser Keith, i've watch a few videos but i'm not keen on the audio, it seems to have plenty of depth though.

Yeah good plowed ground detector or disturbed dirt...strong accurate Iron ID to boot..

Yeah audio is also a little like old school beepers...Just beeps..there Deeep though..

Yet the RA 71 is no slouch. on depth...

So many things to choose nowadays..

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2017 04:03AM by Keith Southern.

A few things to say about iron, low-conductors....... and frequency.

* The higher the operating frequency..... the more sensitive to iron and low conductors. (until the point of diminishing returns).
* The higher the operating frequency..... the stronger the signal return on iron and low conductors; subsequently allowing Disc circuits to have more to work with......and give better ID,,,,, and better Disc.
* The higher the operating frequency..... the less amount of 'iron falsing' will occur.
* The higher the operating frequency..... the more 'resonant' the response to non-Fe low conductors.
* The higher the operating frequency..... the lessor the depth performance on higher conductors.

Soooooo...... when you utilize a higher operating frequency in carpets of nails....... what is actually happening........ why is there better performance .,.,.,.,.,.,., with all of the (above) statements taken into account.
1. Depth is extremely inhibited anyway.....in carpets of nails.
2. There is better resolution of unwanted iron..... which is a good/wanted condition.
3. There is better resolution of 'wanted' conductive targets.

It sounds like I am talking in 'doubles'........ redundancy. Yes....... sort-of. With rationale. Yo do NOT want additional hyper-sensitivity to unwanted iron; however, you DO want hyper-ID accuracy to unwanted iron targets. You DO want hyper-sensitivity to low (non-ferrous) conductors. You DO want hyper-ID accuracy of the Unwanted AND Wanted targets. The most unsuspecting part of the equation lies in: ratios. Is there a fair balance between higher operating frequency...... and finding more non-ferrous targets in carpets of nails? NO! And this is where we can take the lead..... take advantage of...... and capitalize off of the attributes of the bad's and the good's. Unsuspectingly...... there are more good's..... than there are bad's.... with the utilization of higher operating frequencies in carpets of nails. This Imbalance ...... is exactly what allows us to have the success that we encounter/have whilst hunting carpets of nails.

Even if a detector is better at ID'ing bad targets...... you can make a much better..... more intelligent decision....... of what you do NOT want to dig/recover. That ..... all unto itself...... is a major attribute.

It is important to know exactly what it is that you WANT to recover........ as it is EQUALLY IMPORTANT to know what it is that you do NOT want to recover.

Thanks Tom and everyone for the answers!