Hey Steveg heres a video I did yesterday for FBS tones in Conduct

Sorry I got off track here and there but maybe it will help some..

[www.youtube.com]

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2017 11:30PM by Keith Southern.

Keith --

MANY thanks, for doing that video! Very informative, and very much appreciated.

Several things...

First off, that "flat" high tone you are talking about? Absolutely. Many iron targets give that "flat" high tone, that often times when hunting "in dirt" targets, I would recognize, and just skip right over. Hearing the tones you were getting, and listening to your description of them being "flat," I know exactly what you are talking about. I call them "hollow," or "empty" or "have no substance." They are just an "airy" or "flat" tone, just as you described.

BUT -- I do think, whether it's the Safari (which I've never used), or the coil, not sure, but you were getting ALOT of "fluteyness" or "warble" or whatever you want to call it, on those coins. Wow. On deep dimes in the ground, with my SE Pro, I would hear that "flutey, warbly" sound, for sure. But if I was air testing, they would have sounded a lot more like your nails did -- much "flatter," much less "flutey" or "warbly." And to me, with the CTX, it's even MORESO that way. I'm not sure, at least not with the settings I've been using thus far, that there is as much "intelligence" in the audio, in terms of "flat" vs. "flutey" as you were able to illustrate in your video.

Here's the good news...the nuances you were pointing out that you like to listen for, are not "beyond" my ability to hear. In fact, I hear exactly the same nuances you do -- both in your video, and when I'm out hunting "in-ground" targets with an SE Pro. So, that clears up one question I had, very solidly. In other words, the question of "does Keith hear things that I simply don't, or can't." Now I know that no, I very clearly hear the same nuances that you do. So that's a GOOD thing. And, as you said, there are bent/rusty nails that DO have some of that "fluteyness" to them, that will trick you and cause you to dig those iron targets. But the bad thing here is, I heard WAY much more "flutey vs. flat" with you using the Safari and 4.5x7 coil than I hear with the CTX and 11", running ferrous coin, deep off, fast off. I think part of the reason is exactly as you noted...when you hear those coin tones "warbling," it's because the numbers are fluttering up and down by a digit or two -- and one of the "improvements" on the CTX is that it is "more stable," in terms of ID. BUT -- with "more stable," also comes "less flutiness," and for someone hunting by ear, that may NOT be a good thing. I definitely don't hear as much "fluteyness" on the CTX as what you are hearing on that Safari -- again, at least not with the coil and the settings I'm using.

I know you mentioned in another post about "ground coin." Perhaps in ground coin, I might hear more nuance?

Bottom line, I have some experimenting to do. Like I said, one of the best, most valuable things I learned in that video is exactly WHAT you listen for, and again -- the good news being that over the years of using the SE Pro, I learned to hear those very same nuances, so my ears ARE capable of hearing "what you hear."

Thanks much, Keith. Always a pleasure to learn from you.

Steve



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2017 02:17AM by steveg.

Thats why I like the other FBS units over the CTX. I really like my eTrac for that sound difference and the availability of coils. Particularly the small 4.5x7 you had in the video and its bigger brother too. Seldom do I use the stock 11 inch coil. Those others are just better for me. Of course the SunRay 8 or the Minelab 800 are both good too. The SunRay has a little better depth over the 800 but I like them both. The CTX really limits you on coils. With those variable settings maxed out, it really brings out the nuances of the sound. The older FBS machines force you to go by sound instead of visual ID whereas the CTX seems to have more visual nuances to it. Especially if you watch Subes videos on the CTX. Some of his settings require you to continually watch the screen but they work.

Interesting, Daniel. Sounds like you agree that there is a "sound difference" in the CTX, and not necessarily for the better. I remember way back when the CTX came out, some folks on here were saying "you can't replicate the sounds of the Explorer on a CTX." I assumed that meant the tones were TOTALLY different, and so I avoided even considering the switch to a CTX (well, that, AND the cost LOL!)

So, I was pleasantly surprised when I got the CTX here about 6 weeks ago, to find that the tones were actually QUITE familiar. At first, I was confused, because I thought to myself "I thought some guys on the forums said there was "no way to replicate" the Explorer sounds...they sound pretty "replicated" to me!" But, I am now starting to see -- that it's the NUANCE in the tones, the "warble," that it seems is not "replicated" on the CTX.

Steve

Awesome video Keith. That safari looks fun. After watching that video I want one. CTX has been a good one but coil selection is BS in my opinion.

The thing I don't like about the Safari is No adjustable Modulated audio or volume gain. Even in pre-set the Etrac has more Modulation without adjustment. I am hooked on Modulated audio. I won't consider a Detector without it.

The audio kHz are the same, so the overall sound is the same but the nuances are different between them. It's like a remake of an old classic movie. The character names will be the same but even if the script is the same, the dialect of the new characters will be different, along with their acting. A good example would be the movie True Grit. Same characters, same story line, different actors/actress. I guess it all depends on what you started with or what you get use to as to what you prefer.

Yes CTX dont have the tone range in the high tones like a Etrac or a Explorer..And surely not like the Safari

Here's the Kicker the Safari has more nuance in the high range than any other FBS.

The Safari tones are closer to the Etrac than the Explorer but runs like a Explorer XS..

If you cant get your FBS machine wide open screen where it RING's on ground mineral in Conduct in bad soil it will never be deep as it can be....the XS rings on Mineral the Quattro rings on mineral and the Safari rings on mineral soil...

Don't think of the Safari as a less machine...its more of a Hot rod..stripped down to the bare necessities..its as powerful as any FBS ever produced maybe a tad hotter...its not bogged down with software..I think the tones may be the best of any FBS on conduct..Very turn on and hunt ease and what I love about it is I can jump from open screen conduct to open screen ferrous in the press of a button with no lag..FBS-1 is built to run multiple tones and talk to you and adding disc is not the way to run one.

Harold : The Safari is very modulated if you turn the volume gain down.The Target Volume control is used to adjust the maximum volume of the target signal — not Safari's overall volume..The Safari is very MODULATED

At the price the sell for used and or even new there the sleeper FBS and are still made...

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2017 05:18AM by Keith Southern.

Daniel --

Yep. Sums it up well. The sounds "sound" very similar, and so there's a familiarity, but it's a the nuance that's different. Subtle, but different. Like I said, when I first heard that you couldn't "replicate" the Explorer sounds on the CTX, I was thinking like "English" vs. "German" or something. So I was pleasantly surprised that when I turned it on, it was indeed "English!" But, as I've used it, I've noticed an "accent" there that is different from what is "spoken" by the Explorer! LOL!

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the CTX. But WOW, the high tone differences in Keith's video between the nails and the coins...that is MUCH more "obvious" to the ear than what I'm hearing on the CTX.

Still waiting for Keith (if he reads this) to chime in -- might "ground coin" separation give a little more of that "warble" on a deep coin, so as to differentiate it a bit more from an "iron" hit?

Steve

EDITED -- Keith, looks like you sent your reply as I was typing this, ASKING for your reply! LOL!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2017 04:31AM by steveg.

Keith, reading your reply about the Safari having more "tone range" (more warbly-ness) in the high tones, is interesting. I guess from a visual, screen-based perspective (ID numbers), that means it is "less stable" ID-wise. Many would call it an IMPROVEMENT, if the CTX for example is more "stable" or less "jumpy" in terms of VID. BUT -- you showed so clearly in your video that, somewhat paradoxically, a less-stable ID might, in some cases, be an ADVANTAGE. IF the machine tends to "warble" on a high-tone coin, but tends to remain "flat" or "steady" on high-tone iron, in conductive mode, that "visually less stable ID" might actually be a very beneficial thing for someone who hunts "by ear" in an unmasking application...

Steve

What they did in the Etrac and the CTX was to tighten things up get less ID JUMP Steve..Great for the meter guys but for the tone guys no go...they also tried to calm mineral down out on the etrac the CTX and even the Explorer pro by basically nulling out the Ringing it causes on the XS and Explorer II..They removed it thinking the machine knows more than the user..

I like the mineral ring to get that tiny bit of extra depth..because the mineral ring sounds like a nail..flat but ultra high...I use that as a background sound then deepies break through with warble slightly lower high tone..

Sort of like on a Deus were you use less Silencer to let more target info break through in mineral that might otherwise be muted from stronger filtering..

The CTX has alot going for it as does the Etrac but to me still to this day the XS Explorer,,Quatrro ,,Safari was the deepest of the FBS units..Yet slightly and shows more in mineral than more calm soils..

I worked and worked with a CTX in my mineral and the HIgh warble flute sound never came Close but not quite...its deep and better faster ID a real cadillac to run but raw FBS feel it does not have in the end..the CTS was made to run with some pattern..That's what they centered on better disc..Great all rounder for sure..

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

Keith,

Makes sense. "More stable" ID, but with a perhaps less-than-ideal effect on the tones, as a result. Hmm...

I was reading some old posts here, from back when you were running the CTX a lot, I assume when you first got it. I think you set your disc line at like FE 32 or something, and ran "ground coin," and then conductive tones. I have been running mine in ferrous coin, conductive sounds, with the FE line at 20, to get used to the machine. But, I am going to go into my favorite mode, and set pattern 2 to be exactly the same as pattern 1 (FE line at 20) EXCEPT with the FE line set at 32 or so, for some of my really iron/nail-infested sites, and run the small coil to try to maximize its unmasking capability. I am also going to set one up exactly the same -- but with "ground coin" separation instead, and see what that does for me...

Steve

Keith I did not know the Safari had a volume gain setting like the Etrac? You should make a video showing it with the Modulated audio. I would like to hear it as can't tell on video? Thanks.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2017 05:06PM by Harold,ILL..

Thank you for the video Keith. Having never used an fbs machine, I found this information very enlightening.

Nice video, thanks for taking the time to make it!

I saw your video on the Tesoro Mohave, it does better than the Safari on the nail board test

Yes Steve the Combined is a life saver for the Audio the CTX provides or lack of on high conductors Vs iron tone wise.

Yet in the end the Conduct mode by itself is the more powerful mode.

CTX almost forces you to use some disc in Conduct more...Its actually designed to do better on a FBS platform than the others behind it..Faster IDs faster processing etc..

People kept complaining about slow IDs and sluggish reports etc so they got the CTX.

The CTX is the finest and most evolved FBS platform for trash work... Yet it's not the deepest FBS platform.(Close but not quite).Again they tried to make the machine SMOOTH and accurate and that's the trade off.

Harold..... Ill have to get a Video done at some point on the Modulation..Of course if you have a Etrc or Explorer or CTX no worries anyways.

Randy...Sounds like you like Mojave..I liked it for picking around in iron somewhat but not as well as the older Tesoros or Tejon.My hearing works better in the high Hz range for dissecting targets...I seem to do better with a Vaquero or Cibola that's had the tone change also..

Follow the beep....Thanks...maybe I didn't get to far off track here and there.LOL

Maddog...Your welcome.Thanks for taking the time to say such!!

Blackflag...Grab one up..Fun to run for sure and if you don't need advanced disc options and want straight power to the soil its nice..plus tons and tons of coil options...I can say its a Sleek powerful FBS unit.maybe the best tones of any FBS unit to date..I like the simplicity...no deep menus to make changes either...the ability to jump from open screen conduct to open ferrous is the cast meow.

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

Happy New Year Ole' Keith Southern!

I can see where conductive mode on CTX would help on deeper targets. It really cleans up the hits on deeper coins in my test garden(no clipping).The combined setting that I have always used is clipped with an iron grunt on edges. I can't wait to try conductive in the field.