Shovels in City, County and State Parks

People Please do NOT use shovels in City, County or State Parks it will get metal detecting banned from these parks and/or city's Thanks

u2robert Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> People Please do NOT use shovels in City, County o
> r State Parks it will get metal detecting banned f
> rom these parks and/or city's Thanks


That's what I've been saying (preaching) for YEARS & YEARS!-----Perception is EVERYTHING in this regard, no matter how neat & tidy a person is with a shovel or mini shovel on target retrieval.------What's the first thing "John Public" thinks when they see a shovel being packed around in said areas?---The answer to that question should be quite obvious.-----The thing is though, the ones that should (need) to see this post/thread probably never will see it.

Dude You are preaching to the choir. Though there are a lot of YouTube hero's who will jump down your throat. They are above being told what to do. That's the way it is nowadays. They will have to lose all their spots first. Then it's too late.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2018 01:56AM by Harold,ILL..

Might as well be talking to a wall....approached people over the years with little or negative response from shovelers....few ruin it for many...

I rarely use small hand diggers. I have 3 mini shovels..
The last one I purchased is this one pictured.


Many of my local municipalities do not have any problem with shovels. I guess I'm lucky.
What they do have a problem with is a mess, loose sod and soil on their precious manicured fields and park lawns.
The video I am going to share with you is the exact technique that I have used for many many years. I know that Mr. Dankowski uses the same non-destructive procedure.
I can tell you that its not rocket science, its just good ol' common sense, etiquette and simply the right thing to do to make sure there is no reason for park management to bust your chops.
Take a look at the video. Nasa Tom's Non-Destructive Recovery

Up to my ____ in Pulltabs, Grant

Unfortunately , you're missing the whole point about perception there Grant.
The method Tom's demonstrating is indeed probably less harmful to the grass overall and works great in an ideal world under those ideal digging conditions and , nonetheless has absolutely no positive effect on someone seeing you carrying around that obvious shovel,,,damage done -- accept it.
I don't understand why people find it so difficult to stop being so stubborn about such obvious COMMON SENSE concepts.

shoveler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Unfortunately , you're missing the whole point abo
> ut perception there Grant.
> The method Tom's demonstrating is indeed probably
> less harmful to the grass overall and works great
> in an ideal world under those ideal digging condit
> ions and , nonetheless has absolutely no positive
> effect on someone seeing you carrying around that
> obvious shovel,,,damage done -- accept it.
> I don't understand why people find it so difficult
> to stop being so stubborn about such obvious COMMO
> N SENSE concepts.


AMEN & AMEN!!!!!!!!

The perception of what you use to dig with isn't the problem. A person with a metal detector is the problem IMO. You could be out there without a digging implement at all, and people still wouldn't like you being there because you are doing something abnormal. The general perception of metal detectorists outside of a beach setting, is that the person is weirdo or a creeper, or both. If there are kids around, kids are drawn to detectors and as a result, the mother hens have already spotted you and are keeping a close eye on you. Some will just be cautious and watch. Others think it's their purpose in life to intervene in everything, and will just want you gone from THEIR park. Some will call the police. Some have friends in high places and will push those people to make it illegal in the parks. That's how people are now days...they want everything banned that they don't like.

Daniel Tn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The perception of what you use to dig with isn't t
> he problem. A person with a metal detector is the
> problem IMO. You could be out there without a dig
> ging implement at all, and people still wouldn't l
> ike you being there

Daniel, good post. While I agree that carrying a shovel into nice manicured turf isn't a good image, yet you're right: THE MERE PRESENCE of a man with a detector can LIKEWISE evoke images (to nosy-parker lookie-lous) that you are "about to leave holes". Even if you have no digger at all present/visible.

So if you're going to be doing nice manicured grass, it's also a good idea to pick low traffic times. Out of site is out of mind. Kind of like nose-picking: You need to choose discreet times, so as not to offend the squeemish

No worry in most of Virginia because your not allowed to detect. I have seen two guys use knifes to dig and got the University of Maryland to change their mind on the use of metal detectors. Tore the place up.

woodchiphustler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No worry in most of Virginia because your not allo
> wed to detect.

Huh ? How do you figure. There's LOTS of guys detecting in Virginia. Since when isn't it "allowed to detect" ?

I have seen two guys use knifes to
> dig and got the University of Maryland to change t
> heir mind on the use of metal detectors. Tore the
> place up.

"Tore the place up", eh ? Is this what you saw personally? Or what someone said when telling you "no" ? Because it's frequent that we hear someone in authority say "someone was leaving holes" or "tore the place up", when in fact, holes were never seen or an issue. Yet authority will ALWAYS say "no because of holes". Because they just assume that an md'r will make "holes". So when tasked with the mental image (or simply see someone walking with a detector) will think "Holes".

So the md'r mutters under his breath: "Durned those guys that must've left holes", when often-time, there was never such an incident.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2018 12:37PM by Tom_in_CA.

I don't even think it's the worry of leaving holes that people don't like. It's the mere presence of someone there with a detector. Period. To some people, it may look like you are up to no good and they view you as a threat and want you gone. I don't hunt parks but do swimming areas. My strategy would be the same as I follow now if I were to hunt parks. That is....go earlier than when most people get there and be gone before they start to arrive. Or better yet, go on the most God awful miserable weather days when people won't want to go to a park. During the summer last yr, I would often wait til rainy days to go detect in the water at the swimming areas. Nobody was there, or gonna be there, so I could hunt and not be in a rush. On the saltwater beaches, I often hunt at night to avoid the crowds and to get out of the hot sun. After about 11 o clock p.m. most of the kids are off the beach from chasing sand crabs with flashlights I'd have miles of beach to hunt and nobody else out there. Peaceful. Relaxing. Park hunting does nothing for me personally but if I did do it, I would adopt the same strategy. Go early. Leave early. Avoid the crowded times.

Daniel touches on why I've never been a coin or park hunter---MDing to me is a time to relax and concentrate on the task at hand,hence, I have always hunted in the woods or at night if in an open area.I realize I am in an area where I can choose to do this and I feel for the urban guys who don't have the same opportunities.Good luck to all.

Daniel Tn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The perception of what you use to dig with isn't t
> he problem. A person with a metal detector is the
> problem IMO. You could be out there without a dig
> ging implement at all, and people still wouldn't l
> ike you being there because you are doing somethin
> g abnormal. The general perception of metal detec
> torists outside of a beach setting, is that the pe
> rson is weirdo or a creeper, or both. If there ar
> e kids around, kids are drawn to detectors and as
> a result, the mother hens have already spotted you
> and are keeping a close eye on you. Some will jus
> t be cautious and watch. Others think it's their
> purpose in life to intervene in everything, and wi
> ll just want you gone from THEIR park. Some will
> call the police. Some have friends in high places
> and will push those people to make it illegal in t
> he parks. That's how people are now days...they wa
> nt everything banned that they don't like.

Daniel, you've accurately touched upon the other side of this subject. I can dig it. ~ Smirk
I'm glad that you reminded us that its not always the park maintenance or park management who gives us the stink eye while in the park but sometimes the other guests / patrons.
You are 100% correct, there are a small percentage of people who simply can not, will not and are totally unable to mind their own business. These people are forced by a deep satanical possession or maybe some other unknown force that will actually kills them unless they mind your business too.

Some of these people are real "Askholes"

These askholes stand by the side of the soccer field that you're digging in, they perch themselves nearby like a buzzard, watching, observing, formulating and eventually (in their own 1/4 horsepower pull start chicken brain) make the tactical decision that you "Mr. Dig in MY Park" must be confronted.
"Why are you digging holes in our Park" ?? Hence the name "ASKHOLE" I'm usually thinking to myself.... I need a pack of rabid squirrels to carry this nut back to their secret rabid squirrel layer and devour them at their leisure.......
My reply to these sometimes obstinate and unfortunate individuals is always positive in an attempt conduct myself as a gentleman of our hobby with good will and kind demeanor. Sometimes this is enough and they go away, a slight few times for me, it was not.
There have been in my time, a few ( not many but a few ) unrelenting "ASKHOLES" who have had a mean spirited, tenacious and persistent " I MUST STOP YOU FROM RAPING THE GRASS " attitude.... it is indeed frustrating for these poor souls because I never stop detecting and digging after they have opened their askhole even if they've threatened to call the local authorities who will for sure, stop me, confiscate my gear, tow my car, lock me up....... these type of people whom are few and far in between, are usually residents of smaller municipalities and hate everything and everyone. Nothing personal, these slope head knuckle draggers hate all who venture near their sacred grounds. I'm relatively sure that there have been many old biddies and grumpy curmudgeons who've been told over the phone by law enforcement that " He's doing nothing wrong, there no law against it, thanks for calling, have a nice day"

The common run of the mill ASKHOLE is usually harmless. I've had the police and county sheriff called on me a few times and have had to explain what I'm "obviously" doing but that has always gone well during the three times in over 20 years and countless times with ASKHOLES. I show them the trash bag and they appreciate the fact that I'm picking up sharp fence wire, sharp rusty metal, nails, screws, can slaw and broken glass. A little secret for you..... Honestly, I do not dig iron but I keep a small stash of this trash in my apron when digging in the event that I need to show someone that I'm a good guy. When and if I do dig trash I always remove it. I also show them that not a single plug that I have surgically cut has or will cause any damage. I care about environment and their precious park and that is why before I set foot in poe-dunk stink hole _______, I've called the city government or sometimes local law enforcement, gained full permission and written down who I've talked to, their title, the date and the time in my little journal. I always double check the park bulletin board if provided and or the posted signs for the rules. I've only had to go through this about three times with law enforcement, they have always been not necessarily friendly but tolerant. I've never been asked to leave unless it was a overbearing demanding "ASKHOLE"

I believe that when confronted by an ASKHOLE its always best not to fight with them, do not verbally bash them, tell them to mind their own business, get the ____ away from me or anything of the sort. These territorial cro magnon trolls are expecting a fight, it usually angers them further when you don't react to them and they don't receive the expected response that you are now mad. This is what they want, they want you to be uncomfortable, angry and willing to move along, go away. Sorry Mr. / Mrs ASKHOLE, I'm not going away but you are and you're going away either enlightened, edified and relieved or more mad than when you decided that you would interfere with something that is none of your business. I'm up for either one, either way but I'm not going to stop swinging my coil and I'm always 100% of the time going to use a small shovel.

Up to my ____ in Pulltabs, Grant



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2018 03:32PM by Up to my ____ in Pulltabs, Grant.

I agree with both sides on the shovel issue, but I lean much more heavily with Tom and Daniel’s sentiments.

The reality is, you have to go by the LAW, nothing else. As far as I know, there isn’t one ordinance in the country which says someone must use a hand digger versus a shovel, or vice versa. Meaning, a person’s choice of retrieval tool isn’t going to get them booted…or not. Nor will it endanger the entire pastime of metal detecting.

The REAL issue is how tidy a detectorist is, period. I’ve seen many a slob who used lesches to dig terrible plugs, and couldn’t give two craps about the mess they left behind. And conversely, I’ve seen a lot of guys using shovels who can cut a plug without leaving a trace of their presence behind. It comes down to the INDIVIDUAL’S cleanliness, nothing more.

All that said, I DO agree that the PERCEPTION of a shovel isn’t the best, but as Daniel mentioned, so does a detector. There is little I can do to change people’s perceptions. And even if I could, should I alter my ways simply based on them? When would it end?

In the hundreds of places I’ve detected over the years, I’ve only been asked to leave at a handful. And no, it wasn’t because of a shovel. It was simply because - unbeknownst to me - hunting wasn’t allowed there. And after verifying that via the townships or the ordinances, I never went back. Very easy. No argument from me.

If I’m at a VERY manicured place, or a private yard, I always try to use a hand digger. Not because it digs a better plug (it does not), but mainly to keep up appearances.

Again, I do agree that the APPEARANCE of a shovel isn’t the best, but that has little to do with the actual law, or whether or not this hobby sees closures. In my opinion, here are the ACTUAL causes of 99% of the problems that arise for us…

*Slob detectorists who don’t know how or are too lazy to dig in a tidy manner (whether they are using hand diggers OR mini shovels)

*TV shows that picture guys digging for pure profit and ripping apart the earth with backhoes, jackhammers, etc.

*Detectorists who think it’s a good idea to hunt in packs of 5, 6, 7 or 8 at a time. This is a REAL eyesore, and causes many more problems than a shovel ever would.

*Detectorists who are flashy when out digging, or are rude to passerby’s. As a general rule, I stay to myself as much as possible when hunting, but if I’m approached, I turn into Johnny Nice Guy. Some people simply don’t know how to deal with the general public, and create a lot of problems.

*People who feel the need to constantly ask permission to detect at places, when there is no written information available saying otherwise. I’ve detected at places for YEARS without having any issues. Then some idiot will go on one of the forums and bitch about being told he couldn’t hunt there…because he ASKED! Imagine a small trooper station in a local park that has 4 or 5 guys coming in monthly and asking if they can detect there. I can assure you, that even if hunting IS allowed, once all those requests get kicked up to the big boss on duty, they’ll get a bit worried, seek to cover their asses, and WILL start kicking people out. If there is no issue (or it’s questionable), don’t turn it into one!

As I hunt mainly urban parks, the authorities have a LOT more serious things to worry about than some guy using a metal detector or a shovel. I employ a mini shovel because it gets the job done quicker and cleaner…end of story. I cannot and will not concern myself with PERCEPTION, because at the end of the day, that is not the real reason behind most of the problems in this hobby.

Tom_in_CA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> woodchiphustler Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > No worry in most of Virginia because your not al
> lo
> > wed to detect.
>
> Huh ? How do you figure. There's LOTS of guys
> detecting in Virginia. Since when isn't it "allow
> ed to detect" ?
>
> I have seen two guys use knifes to
> > dig and got the University of Maryland to change
> t
> > heir mind on the use of metal detectors. Tore th
> e
> > place up.
>
> "Tore the place up", eh ? Is this what you saw
> personally? Or what someone said when telling you
> "no" ? Because it's frequent that we hear someon
> e in authority say "someone was leaving holes[/
> i]" or "tore the place up", when in fact, h
> oles were never seen or an issue. Yet authority
> will ALWAYS say "no because of holes". Because
> they just assume that an md'r will make "holes".
> So when tasked with the mental image (or simply se
> e someone walking with a detector) will think "Hol
> es".
>
> So the md'r mutters under his breath: "Durned tho
> se guys that must've left holes", when often-time,
> there was never such an incident.


This is why I like you Tom. You take a statement and make sure that assumption and hearsay is eliminated. I dont always see eye to eye with you, but still, this type of common sense we can't get enough of. No offense to you George

Daniel Tn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The perception of what you use to dig with isn't the problem. A person with a metal detector is the problem IMO.

BINGO!!! Another reason I don't really enjoy detecting parks that much.

I started off detecting parks, but I find as I get older, that I don't enjoy detecting most parks (with some exceptions like GGP, Tilden Park, etc) because the other nuisance at parks is PEOPLE! Now you've become the spectacle, and god forbid there's a group of kids around, and here comes a million questions...what are you doing? what are you looking for? hows that work? can I have your finds? etc., etc., etc.

I enjoy getting the heck out of the city and the seemingly endless supply of people dawdling around, and out into the wild free of people, and traffic, and enjoy the great outdoors.

I have had some passers by say "I didn't know digging was allowed in the park". My response is " Ya have to buy a permit to do this". That usually shuts them up and they get back into their own business.

Some folks view a person using a detector as a fruitcake. Or is strange, kook, etc.
I do get some 'more intelligent types' that actually do approach me with good down to earth questions.

Only takes one dummy to mess it up for all!! As far as digging practices.
And the dummies are out there.

D&P-OR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> shoveler Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Unfortunately , you're missing the whole point a
> bo
> > ut perception there Grant.
> > The method Tom's demonstrating is indeed probabl
> y
> > less harmful to the grass overall and works gre
> at
> > in an ideal world under those ideal digging cond
> it
> > ions and , nonetheless has absolutely no positiv
> e
> > effect on someone seeing you carrying around tha
> t
> > obvious shovel,,,damage done -- accept it.
> > I don't understand why people find it so difficu
> lt
> > to stop being so stubborn about such obvious COM
> MO
> > N SENSE concepts.
>
>
> AMEN & AMEN!!!!!!!!

Yes +2, It does not matter what the ground keeper says as He doesn't make the rules. A couple busy body Woman see that and make a fuss about it and a No Detecting sign goes up. At My age I get down on My knees and back fill with a towel. Some these YouTube clowns don't even back fill. That's just lazy and careless!

Cal_cobra Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Daniel Tn Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The perception of what you use to dig with isn't
> the problem. A person with a metal detector is th
> e problem IMO.
>
> BINGO!!! Another reason I don't really enj
> oy detecting parks that much.
>
> I started off detecting parks, but I find as I get
> older, that I don't enjoy detecting most parks (wi
> th some exceptions like GGP, Tilden Park, etc) bec
> ause the other nuisance at parks is PEOPLE! Now yo
> u've become the spectacle, and god forbid there's
> a group of kids around, and here comes a million q
> uestions...what are you doing? what are you lookin
> g for? hows that work? can I have your finds? e
> tc., etc., etc.
>
> I enjoy getting the heck out of the city and the s
> eemingly endless supply of people dawdling around,
> and out into the wild free of people, and traffic,
> and enjoy the great outdoors.

Thanks Cal...best post on the subject and in the remote areas you can use a shovel

njnydigger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The REAL issue is how tidy a detectorist is, perio
> d. I’ve seen many a slob who used lesches to dig t
> errible plugs, and couldn’t give two craps about t
> he mess they left behind. And conversely, I’ve see
> n a lot of guys using shovels who can cut a plug w
> ithout leaving a trace of their presence behind. I
> t comes down to the INDIVIDUAL’S cleanliness, noth
> ing more.

AGREED I've witnessed this first hand, I've been behind diggers who are monkeys with shovels, these guys cause problems for the rest of us who then show up with our gear, we then get the stink eye and sometimes on occasion because of the slobs repeatedly creating a mess, there will be a sign posted "NO METAL DETECTING".... Some guys here in the forum as missing this.

>
> All that said, I DO agree that the PERCEPTION of a
> shovel isn’t the best, but as Daniel mentioned, so
> does a detector. There is little I can do to chang
> e people’s perceptions. And even if I could, shoul
> d I alter my ways simply based on them? When would
> it end?

Nynjdigger, it never ends, liberal perspectives and the progressive mentality of " I don't like that, neither should you, ban the behavior, speech and activity
is an endless and unlimited intrusion by selfish repugnant people who have infested our society, contaminated all that we enjoy whether it be Hunting, Shooting, MD'ing etc etc.
These people don't want you to live your life, they want you to live theirs. Now... with that stated, I don't give a damn what other people feel, want or believe but I don't always have the need to tell them. Be respectful of "ASKHOLES", in the end try and foster good relations and represent our hobby positively. You should all stand your ground, sweep your coil enjoy our hobby, be responsible, courteous, use logical common sense and a shovel if you desire.


> In the hundreds of places I’ve detected over the y
> ears, I’ve only been asked to leave at a handful.
> And no, it wasn’t because of a shovel. It was simp
> ly because - unbeknownst to me - hunting wasn’t al
> lowed there. And after verifying that via the town
> ships or the ordinances, I never went back. Very e
> asy. No argument from me.

Yep, too easy.... couldn't you make it more complicated ? Painful, stand up and be a hero, force everyone to dig with one of Mamma's small kitchen spoons..... camouflage our detectors as lawn rakes..... sigh....
Yea, exactly.... all you have to do is obey the ordinances and don't forget your damn shovel..... lol

>, but if
> I’m approached, I turn into Johnny Nice Guy.

This should always be the rule.... has worked for me 100% of the time in my favor, for years.

> *People who feel the need to constantly ask permis
> sion to detect at places, when there is no written
> information available saying otherwise.

[[b]b]An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.....[/b]
I personally would rather be safe than sorry. I know that there have been a few people over the years whom have had their equipment confiscated and there has been no posted rules or warnings.
This is rare but I've heard about it happening before. If I stroll into a one horse town, I do not ask for permission unless its private land. I do inquire regarding rules, regulations and ordinances regarding public land and not just MD'ing but also excavation on public land.
Excavation regardless of scope, is something that is usually never posted anywhere but they can use it against you if they choose. I have seen rules posted in parks that state children are restricted to digging in play sand boxes or designated areas only. This is type of verbiage is enough to be a caution flag.
Chances are no one will care or notice but then again... what if.....?
All municipalities are self governing and there are no regulations as to if they must post warning about anything. They simply have to create a city ordinance and if they don't like you, you're screwed.[/b]

> I’ve detec
> ted at places for YEARS without having any issues.
> Then some idiot will go on one of the forums and b
> itch about being told he couldn’t hunt there…becau
> se he ASKED!

It is inevitably, our responsibility to make sure we are in obeyance with local ordinances. If anyone disregards being cautious and not inquiring it then becomes a problem for all of us.
Many cities, townships and municipalities have web sites with all of the regulations... its easy to search using the correct key words without the need to call and ruffle any mother hen feathers at city hall.

Up to my ____ in Pulltabs, Grant



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2018 12:44AM by Up to my ____ in Pulltabs, Grant.

Depends....Is a Sampson a shovel? I dig a much nicer hole with a Sampson. But then I don't dig in parks at all. I never go on public land except beaches. I know many that worry about the perception of the digging tool. I see it all the time in posts. I agree with Daniel. The digging tool is the least of it. You are going to attract attention. That is a fact. And some won't like you there. That is just the way it is.

Quote:"I believe that when confronted by an ASKHOLE its always best not to fight with them, do not verbally bash them, tell them to mind their own business, etc"
...especially as these days, they are very likely to be filming you on their cellphone whilst confronting you. I've had this happen. It was in the early-morning half-light, I saw I was being watched by this dog-walker, then a white LED came on, which I assumed was a flashlight (torch), but it was in fact the 'flash' LED on his phone, then he wandered over to me, light shining straight at me.

All depends where you go. On soccer fields with people around I never bring anything but a smal Lesche and a screw driver.
If it’s a huge park and wooded areas I’ll take my Lesche small shovel... but never a big ole shovel.
One guy in my club who never hunted, brought s huge shovel to a park. I just quietly walked over and gave him my Lesche..
“Here you go, this is more work and but less noticeable by people and park staff.”

Now before we go I do a... (I’m in Construction so we do this often) which is a pre job brief stating filling holes small hand diggers towels etc.. it’s worked well for us so far.

XP Deus
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Some of my random digs: [www.youtube.com]

Up to my ____ in Pulltabs, Grant Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>...... I care about environment and the
> ir precious park and that is why before I set foot
> in poe-dunk stink hole _______, I've called the ci
> ty government or sometimes local law enforcement,
> gained full permission and written down who I've t
> alked to, their title, the date and the time in my
> little journal.

U.T.M.__ I.P. :

Questions for you:

1) In your practice "gaining full permission" from "city govt. or Law enforcement" : Have you ever run into a "no" ? Or some strange answer like "yes but you can't dig". Or "yes but you can't remove anything" ? Because there's been no shortage of instances where someone fetches answers like this . Ie.: "safe answers" from pencil-pushers who imagine geeks with shovels. Yet , oddly, from places where md'ing has never been an issue before. Nor was there any rule/law that actually said "no md'ing".

2) What's to have stopped you from merely looking up rules/laws for yourself ? Instead of asking someones' whim ? Because, presumably, they'd be answering your question based on actual laws & rules, right ? Rather than capricious whim & mood, right ? Ok then: Why couldn't you just equally look it up ? If nothing there says "no metal detecting", then presto, not dis-allowed. Eh ?

3) But in the cases where you got a "yes" (ie.: "permission"), have you ever had a situation where ...... when you gleefully present this permission-giver's name to a busy-body, that you still got booted anyhow ? (ie.: the "permission" did no good). Because there's been ample posts of persons gleefully whipping out their "permission". The griper merely gets on his cell-phone, calls to city hall, and says "... But he's tearing the place up " (which isn't true, of course). Then guess what happens to their "permission". ?





2) And if



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2018 01:01PM by Tom_in_CA.

njnydigger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
......
> *People who feel the need to constantly ask permis
> sion to detect at places, when there is no written
> information available saying otherwise. I’ve detec
> ted at places for YEARS without having any issues.
> Then some idiot will go on one of the forums and b
> itch about being told he couldn’t hunt there…becau
> se he ASKED! Imagine a small trooper station in a
> local park that has 4 or 5 guys coming in monthly
> and asking if they can detect there. I can assure
> you, that even if hunting IS allowed, once all tho
> se requests get kicked up to the big boss on duty,
> they’ll get a bit worried, seek to cover their ass
> es, and WILL start kicking people out. If there is
> no issue (or it’s questionable), don’t turn it int
> o one!
....

NJ-NY-Digger : Good paragraph. In my 43-ish years of this, I too have seen this happen first-hand. Someone takes it upon themselves (bless their little heart) to go asking "Can I ?". Strangely, they fetch a "no", where ... quite frankly ... it was never an issue before. WTF ? So it's clearly a case of : "No one cared.... UNTIL you asked". Ie.: Swatting hornet's nests.

In fact, it just happened on a Calif. Face-book md'ing page. The subject came up about "which beaches are allowed?". I was fascinated when one person chimed in with : "... Not allowed on such & such state beach". I was shocked. Because we detect that beach all the time. And ... it's just one of HUNDRED'S of state-administered beaches of CA (most of our coast-line). So I asked the person: "Where did you get that information ?". And ... you guessed it: THEY ASKED (bless their little hearts). And the rationale given by the Sacramento desk jockey (the person in charge of the "contact us" tab on their website I guess) was interesting: "Because it is forbidden to remove things". WTF ?

And ... sadly ... when some old-timer like me/us says : "That's not true, it's allowed". Then the skittish person will point to the "no" they heard about, and say : "But how can you argue with an answer straight from authority ?". So then guess what both sides do to resolve the disparity ? Drum-roll .... they go ASK . Is anyone seeing the vicious circle ? It's as if md'rs can be their own worst enemy.

And this is failing to take into account the implicit psychology: That if anyone feels they need to ask "Can I?", to do something: That merely casts your chosen activity as some sort of "suspicious" class . Eg.: harmful ? damaging? dangerous? Because THINK OF IT: No one asks to do innocuous harmless things, right ? (eg.: fly kites, skip stones on the pond, etc...). So the mere act of asking someone "can I?" will subconsciously cause them to lump this into some risky activity . Lest why else would you be asking "can I ?", if it were innocuous and harmless ? You're merely dictating your own answer. C'mon people: Stop swatting hornet's nests !



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2018 01:20PM by Tom_in_CA.

Up to my ____ in Pulltabs, Grant Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

I do in
> quire regarding rules, regulations and ordinances
> regarding public land and not just MD'ing but also
> excavation on public land.
> Excavation regardless of scope, is something that
> is usually never posted anywhere but they can use
> it against you if they choose.

U.T.M. __ I.P. :

I do not construe any verbiage about "excavation", or "alter" , or "deface", or "molest", or "dig" to apply to the act of us md'ing.

Because if you construe boiler-plate catch-all verbiage like that to mean "no md'ing", then: MD'ing is forbidden on every speck of public land, at all levels, in the entire USA. Because I can assure you: Such language exists in all muni and/or park rules. Pre-dates and was never meant to apply to md'ing. It's so that no numbskulls can start spinning donuts on the lawn with their 4wd, or spray-painting graffiti, etc....

I do not construe such clauses to apply to us. Because if you leave no trace (fill, cover, stomp, fluff), then technically, you have not excavatED, alterED, defacED, molestED, or dUg anything. Now have you ? Could someone come up , disagree with those semantics, and say it applies to us ? SURE ! Ok, fine then: Choose lower-traffic hours and avoid such lookie-lous. It's gotten to where I do most of my nice manicured park turf at night nowadays . Like nose-picking: Sometimes you need to pick more discreet times, so as not to offend the squeemish.

Also, I see in your post that you allude to "confiscated equipment". Can you cite any such incident , for someone md'ing in a city turfed park, for no other reason that "alter" or "deface" language ? I don't think so. A "scram" at best. The only links/citations to "confiscated md'r" someone's going to find, will be someone who is being defiant and can't take a warning. Or someone who's night-sneaking obvious off-limits historic monuments.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2018 01:38PM by Tom_in_CA.

Interesting thread. I'm with Tom on his view of asking permission...just asking implies that you are are doing something wrong. Why would you need to ask if there was no ordinance against it in the first place? You MUST be doing something wrong! Check the local ordinance first, make sure there are no signs saying you can't in that particular place, dress presentably, smile, wave, keep a low profile. If you look and act like a creep... people are going to assume that you are a creep and alert the authorities.

I've had the police and sheriff called on me a few times and have always come out being the victor. One city officer actually drove out on to the grass right up to me, rolled down his window with a slightly perturbed look on his face, and said that somebody reported a man in the park swinging a gun around! He then asked if I had found anything good! He said sorry for the interruption and left. My buddy and I had the sheriff called on while hunting private property with permission of the owner. Nosy neighbor. The sheriff told us that she hated calls like this because it was a waste of time and resources. She stayed and we had a nice conversation for a while then we went back to detecting.

I have a number of local police and county sheriffs as patients, they have all told me there are no city or county ordinance's preventing MDing (here). Just respect private land and historical monuments (no brainer for most).

Don't act like you are doing something wrong!!! If you act like you are committing a crime or shouldn't be there then people are going to assume that you shouldn't be there! People pick up on "behavioral cues" more than anything..."That guy with the metal detector is acting weird, maybe we should call the cops". Be comfortable,confident, and friendly.

Dean

Tom_in_CA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Up to my ____ in Pulltabs, Grant Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >...... I care about environment and the
> > ir precious park and that is why before I set fo
> ot
> > in poe-dunk stink hole _______, I've called the
> ci
> > ty government or sometimes local law enforcement
> ,
> > gained full permission and written down who I've
> t
> > alked to, their title, the date and the time in
> my
> > little journal.
>
> U.T.M.__ I.P. :
>
> Questions for you:
>
> 1) In your practice "gaining full permission[/i
> ]" from "city govt. or Law enforcement" : Have y
> ou ever run into a "no" ? Or some strange answer
> like "yes but you can't dig". Or "yes b
> ut you can't remove anything" ? Because the
> re's been no shortage of instances where someone f
> etches answers like this . Ie.: "safe answers" fr
> om pencil-pushers who imagine geeks with shovels.
> Yet , oddly, from places where md'ing has never be
> en an issue before. Nor was there any rule/law t
> hat actually said "no md'ing".
>
> 2) What's to have stopped you from merely looking
> up rules/laws for yourself ? Instead of asking so
> meones' whim ? Because, presumably, they'd be an
> swering your question based on actual laws & rules
> , right ? Rather than capricious whim & mood, rig
> ht ? Ok then: Why couldn't you just equally look
> it up ? If nothing there says "no metal detectin
> g", then presto, not dis-allowed. Eh ?
>
> 3) But in the cases where you got a "yes" (ie.: "
> permission"), have you ever had a situation where
> ...... when you gleefully present this permission-
> giver's name to a busy-body, that you still got bo
> oted anyhow ? (ie.: the "permission" did no good)
> . Because there's been ample posts of persons gl
> eefully whipping out their "permission". The grip
> er merely gets on his cell-phone, calls to city ha
> ll, and says "... But he's tearing the place up
> " (which isn't true, of course). Then guess w
> hat happens to their "permission". ?
>
>
>
>
>
> 2) And if

Exactly, Tom. To be clear, I’m NOT advocating to break the rules, or to hunt places which are off limits. Rather, what I DO mean, is that after looking at a township/park’s website, and/or any obvious signage that’s posted where you’ll be hunting, if you don’t see anything specifically mentioning NO METAL DETECTING, or other such language, it’s fairly safe to assume (in most instances) that hunting there is permitted. But…

What a lot of guys do (unfortunately), is if they don’t see any information pertaining to metal detecting on the township/park’s website, or on the signage within the location, they then seek out FURTHER clearance by calling the authorities, visiting town hall, writing letters, and a bunch of other nonsense, which only complicates the matter tenfold, and is simply pushing their luck, as they’re basically looking to hear a “yes”, when one wasn’t needed in the first place. And the "yes” that was never needed then magically turns into a “no.”

From personal experience, I can say that most public places outside of the forbidden type spots (cemeteries, historical areas, private properties, government property, etc.) - which people would be foolish to hunt anyway - will generally not give a detectorist any issues. Again, if the locale’s website doesn’t expressly state anything pertaining to the forbiddance of metal detecting, nor does any signage posted in the area, 99.9% of the time this will mean you’re free to go about enjoying your hobby, and no further approval is necessary.

If for some odd reason you ARE hassled and told to scram, get a copy of the specific ordinance # so you can do your due diligence later. If the # they gave you is B.S., and after further investigation you find that there really isn’t a ban/ordinance/law against detecting, you then have every right to go back to that place, as you wish. On the other hand…

If detecting DOES indeed turn out to be prohibited at that spot, simply swallow it like a man and look for another area to hunt. There are lots of places to search for history. But in the vast majority of instances, it will never get to this point anyways.

Unlike what many in this hobby think, it’s not law enforcement that gives us problems (at least in my neck of the woods). By far, most of the cops, rangers, security guards, etc. that I’ve encountered over the years find what we do to be a hoot, and many are actually interested in detecting themselves. When I’m out hunting I normally know a lot of the local cops, and it’s routine for them to pull up in their squad car to shoot the @#$%& with me for a few minutes, or to ask me what I found. Almost exclusively, it’s the BUREAUCRATS who hate this pastime…the pencil pushers. And they are the source for most of the grief we get. Thankfully…

We don’t come into contact with them most of the time. Which is why I’m so adamant about fellow detectorists NOT seeking these people out to ask permission. It’s basically opening a can of worms that doesn’t need opening at all.

P.S. - I have no idea why my reply is coming out in italics, lol. Is this a glitch?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2018 04:42PM by njnydigger.