Shovels in City, County and State Parks

Yes We lost are Forest Preserves about 3 Years back.
80,000 arce's to be exact. These use too be Victorian era picnic groves. For 20 Years it was fun hunting them and Yes Cops would stop and joke with You and ask what You found. Good times. Then these Treasure net clowns use to have group hunts with 10-15 Guys at a time meeting up for ' Comaraderie' all armed with their trusty shovels. Well did not take long for busy body's to take notice and complain they were hurting the land, You know destruction of Property.
Anyway they got so many complaints they passed a law No Detecting and put up signs. Those were My bread and butter it hurt. We still got are Gang ridden Chicago parks but not the same and far away. They Preserves were so peaceful. Think it could of all been avoided with a little common sense. On a side note Minelab head quarters are in The County that banned Detecting. Ha.
Got to laugh at that one.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2018 06:49PM by Harold,ILL..

njnydigger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> What a lot of guys do (unfortunately), is if they
> don’t see any information pertaining to metal dete
> cting on the township/park’s website, or on the si
> gnage within the location, they then seek out FURT
> HER clearance by calling the authorities, visiting
> town hall, writing letters, and a bunch of other n
> onsense, which only complicates the matter tenfold
> , and is simply pushing their luck, as they’re bas
> ically looking to hear a “yes”,

Good post nj-ny-digger. You are correct: Some people can't tolerate "silent on the subject". They think they need "express allowance". But why is that ? Do you need "express allowance" to fly frisbees? Skip stones on the pond ? I don't get it: Why is md'ing so evil that it needs express allowance ? I happen to find md'ing to be harmless, innocuous, educational, and nutritious. And like you say: So too do most people. They come by and say "what's the best thing you've ever found?" and " how deep does it go". So this notion that "everyone hates us", thus I must "grovel for permission" is silly.

I remember one time reading some posts of some md'rs musing over a certain Asian country. Wondering "Is md'ing allowed?". One guy had gone to GREAT LENGTHS researching all and every law he could find. And he could find absolutely nothing mentioning "metal detectors" or "metal detecting". So he lamented that he was therefore "worried". But I chimed in saying: "Why isn't silent on the subject a GOOD THING ?". What are you waiting for ? Express allowances? Eg.: signs saying "metal detecting welcomed here"?. Or Red Carpets rolled out ? I don't get it ? Why is there this notion that we md'rs somehow need princely sanction ?

But I know exactly how it's born out: It's the psychology of "shark attacks" : No matter HOW RARE (that thousands swim per day w/o incident). Yet if a *single* shark attack makes the news, guess what couch-potato casual swimmers fears the next day when they go swimming? SO TOO IS IT WITH SKITTISH NEWBIES & MD'ing : When a *single* story of someone who (gasp) fetched a "scram", then.... like shark attack stories, they think "oh no, I might get in trouble". When the truth is: 99.999% of the time you are totally ignored.

Tom - There is a flip side to that. Me and some friends were hunting this city owned piece of land near a railroad bridge that was present during the civil war. The land we were hunting was a field on a hill. City owned = fair game or so we thought. We got about 15 mins in and I dug a 3 ringer minie ball right out of the truck. Followed by a knapsack hook and another 3 ringer. Good site. Here came a city truck. They stopped and pulled their truck into the field and asked us if we had gotten permission to dig there. No...didnt think we needed to. So he calls on the radio and reports us to his superior. Who then tells him to tell us to leave. We did. I drove by their office to see why we couldn't hunt there and they told me "if you would have stopped and asked first, we would have let you". To put this to the test, I told some other friends of mine to stop by there and ask to see what they would be told. They were given permission and still hunt it to this day! They just have to let them know when they are going to be there.

As a landowner, I run into people trespassing for deer hunting on my property. I have the same feeling....if I catch you hunting, I'm gonna make you leave and that is your warning. If I catch you again, law enforcement will be called and I will press charges. However, if they would have asked first without sneaking and being caught, I would have probably let them. Since they did sneak and got caught, no way on God's green earth would I let them hunt.

njnydigger and Tom in CA -- VERY good posts.

Daniel, interesting points you raised.

Steve

Daniel Tn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tom - There is a flip side to that. Me and some
> friends were hunting this city owned piece of land
> near a railroad bridge that was present during the
> civil war.

Daniel, The only way I can answer this, is to say this is very very rare. I mean, someone in that city office is almost treating it as his private property.

If, conversely, you took that as a lesson to mean "Thus should ask at every forest, park, beach, roadside, etc... that I come to" : I bet you end up with less places to hunt, rather than more. Ie.: you'd risk ending up with arbitrary whimsical safe answer "no's". In other words, what happened to you is not normal . I could understand a "scram" and ALSO a "no" to others who asked. But what happened to you is practically unique.

Interesting story. And ... I hate to say this ... but ... if that were me, and I thought it was a very good place to hunt (as evidenced by your fast action finds), and if your buddy who got permission does good, .... here's what I'd do : I'd simply give it a short rest, and ... later on, just accompany your friend who has permission. Even *IF* someone carded you guys again (which , as I say, seemed like a fluke to begin with), your buddy just whips out his permission and says "We have permission". And you're simply with him. But ... that's just me.

Tom -- That's exactly how we ended up handling that particular site. It is directly behind some low income govt apartments. The lady explained that the project tenants start blowing her phone up when they see somebody there, that isn't part of their housing group. That's how the city workers knew we were up there in the first place. That place ended up being just another small piece of the pie. It had some scattered relics on it, several eagle buttons, one staff officer button, and some more minies came off it.

Public land is not something I hunt often at all. 95% of my hunting is on private property with permission. Some of the guys locally, tend to follow the thought process of, if it ain't posted, I'm hunting it...city and private owned. They get to hunt more places than I do, but they've also been escorted off at gun point...a position I'd rather avoid. I do hunt local area public beach sites, but they are also the ones that are listed on the park service website as being OK to detect.

Bill S couldn't have said it any better.

Words of Wisdom

VERY well stated by several. Statistically speaking....... the more I ask for permission...... the more "no" I receive. Silent Prudence is best practice.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2018 03:54AM by NASA-Tom.

Tom_in_CA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Up to my ____ in Pulltabs, Grant Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >...... I care about environment and the
> > ir precious park and that is why before I set fo
> ot
> > in poe-dunk stink hole _______, I've called the
> ci
> > ty government or sometimes local law enforcement
> ,
> > gained full permission and written down who I've
> t
> > alked to, their title, the date and the time in
> my
> > little journal.
>
> U.T.M.__ I.P. :
>
> Questions for you:
>
> 1) In your practice "gaining full permission[/i
> ]" from "city govt. or Law enforcement" : Have y
> ou ever run into a "no" ? Or some strange answer
> like "yes but you can't dig". Or "yes b
> ut you can't remove anything" ?

I don't usually have to ask for permission where I hunt. Most of my detecting is done within a 50 mile radius of where I live and I am well aware of the local ordinances. The last few years I do not make many detecting road trips. Most of my local municipalities have websites and I can re-check that nothing has changed if needed.
When I have made plans to detect in new places, I check that cities website and sometimes their parks and recreation websites.
If I am in doubt, I do ask. Its the responsible thing to do. I have asked local law enforcement and sometimes called the city managers office.

Some of you might have the urge to over look the fact that if there is a local ordinance that limits or prohibits metal detection, it is up to you to find out. It may or may not be publicly posted. You may or may not receive a friendly warning from law enforcement that you are breaking their local law.
You might receive a citation, most likely won't have your gear confiscated but it is possible. Just because you own a metal detector does not guarantee your right to use it anywhere you want.

I've called a few little one horse towns in Ohio and they've actually told me no because all excavation on city owned land is prohibited, including their crappy little park/parks.
I've had police to contend with when they were called or just happened to show up. I've not had a problem. I keep records of whom I've talked to just in case and I always keep a few trash items in my pouch to show them I'm a good guy cleaning up the park.

A few years ago I had a city park worker call the police on me while detecting a park at night in a park that I had hunted for many years. The cops showed up, I talked to both of them, they told the park worker that detecting is legal even at night as long as the park is open. Another park worker came to me and apologized because the new guy was both ignorant and out of line.

I had one instance where the answer was both yes and no. I had made plans to visit friends just north of Ocala, Fl in 2011. I decided that I would hit some of the older local parks, old fair grounds and and what ever else I could find / research before the visit.
When I searched the city website, I found that if I wanted to metal detect in the city parks or any city owned land I would be forced to obtain an "Excavation Permit" So... no you can not metal detect but yes you can if you have a permit. I was hoping this was going to be free and something I could just apply for over the internet. When I called for more information I was told that there was a fee, I had to show up in person to obtain the permit, there were all sorts of rules including that if anything valuable, like jewelry was found it must turned over to the police dept for 90 days to allow the owner to claim it, holes could not be deeper than a specified depth, yadda yadda yadda....... nope, too many other places without that massive amount of B.S.
Needless to say, I thumbed my nose at Ocala and went to Gainsville and hit a few parks had a great time and did NOT need a permit.

One time, most likely because of my out of state plate where I've had permission but have had to explain to local police what I'm doing.... this was just their way of letting me know they were there, in charge and I must comply with the rules etc.... I'm sure they ran my plate. I've got nothing to hide.
That situation ended up with having to demonstrate my CZ3D, I found a junk ring and part of a gold chain with a 14k tag and clasp. They were impressed..... I guess. One of the cops asked where he could get a machine like mine.



> If nothing there says "no metal detectin
> g", then presto, not dis-allowed. Eh ?

That is extremely presumptive and means nothing. Example: Many of these parks DO NOT have signs warning you against riding your 4 wheel all terrain vehicle around their soccer field..... trust me, they will stop you and you will hate yourself.
It could be just as serious because you're there with a metal detector.
If you think for a moment that you have some sort of inherent, unalienable right to detect, you do not.
If you're in doubt, ask or pay the fine if you get one

> 3) But in the cases where you got a "yes" (ie.: "
> permission"), have you ever had a situation where
> ...... when you gleefully present this permission-
> giver's name to a busy-body, that you still got bo
> oted anyhow ?

Nope, I've never had that happen.

Up to my ____ in Pulltabs, Grant

Has anybody here ever been given a citation and/or payed a fine for detecting on public land that was not posted? No hearsay, please...personal experience only. If so, what was the "charge"?

Thanks.

Dean

As always, our hobby owes a collective thanks to Ca. Tom for being such an eloquent voice for common sense about permissions on public property. When it comes to discussing all the great reasons to not ask for preemptive permissions, Ca. Tom is the guru.

Unfortunately, common sense is not universal. Some will still choose to detect public lands with their shovels and no regard to the impression they create while grovelling to city hall for those "princely permissions"

Up to my ____ in Pulltabs, Grant Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> ...... that limits
> or prohibits metal detection, it is up to you to f
> ind out. It may or may not be publicly posted.
>

Pulltabs: I disagree with statement. There are no laws or rules out there, in ANY city, that are "secret " Sure, they may not be on the sign at the park entrance, but they will most certainly be down at City Hall in a binder or on their website some where.

So for example: if they came up to you tomorrow and said you were being arrested for wearing a blue shirt, what would you say ? You would object and say there is no law forbidding wearing blue shirts, right? So what would you do if they said the law was secret and there was no way for you to have known ahead of time. Therefore you're being arrested ?

And I reject this notion that there are some laws that can't be looked up or known. Every law rule and Municipal Code can be availed of by John Q public somewhere somehow. No need to ask and catch arbitrary safe Whimsical answers.

As far as the one city you didn't like because they forbid Excavating and forbid removing objects: if you give me the name of any City you are currently hunting, I can show you in 10 minutes that such prohibitions exist there too. It just means you didn't ask the right officials with the right word combinations and right mental connotations given to them. I can call those cities you currently detect in, and get a no from someone within five minutes.

Because laws that forbid alter, deface, destruction, take, remove, steal, etc....exist in every single city in the USA.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2018 10:54PM by Tom_in_CA.

bado1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Has anybody here ever been given a citation and/or
> payed a fine for detecting on public land that was
> not posted? No hearsay, please...personal experien
> ce only. If so, what was the "charge"?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Dean

Not me. And I'm as brazen as they come !!

Wheneveryou DO hear about such incidents, it's usually always for someone night sneaking an obvious sensitive Monument. Or someone being a nuisance who couldn't take a scram.

bado1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Has anybody here ever been given a citation and/or
> payed a fine for detecting on public land that was
> not posted? No hearsay, please...personal experien
> ce only. If so, what was the "charge"?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Dean


Go to Ocala Florida and let them catch you metal detecting in a public park or city owned land without the required permit. $165.00 Fine. Many of you doubt that it happens or that it could happen.
An acquaintance and fellow ground pounder, Gary Locker was fined but only after he received a written warning from a officer in an area he was hunting which was where festivals and carnivals were historically prevalent. City owned land, no signs, nothing posted, not even no trespassing. He failed to get the permit, went to his friends home inside the city limits, the next day he was was then cited for metal detecting along a "public common", the area between the sidewalk and the street. I spoke with him about it, this was three or four years ago, I knew about Ocala's strict policy but was unaware he was planning going there until after the fact. This is the only time I know of anyone getting a citation and not specifically for metal detecting but for excavation on city property without a permit while metal detecting.

Maybe some of you want to believe that you'll just do whatever you want, whenever you want, I say go for it.... most places don't care, most places don't have rules against detecting, some however, do and sometimes its hidden in the form of excavation. Any of you out there feel bold and brave ? Go to any National Park and run a metal detector, don't even dig, don't even turn it on, just run it and sweep the coil. Come and tell us what happens. Whatever some of you believe or want to believe is of absolute no consequence to me, its not going to change my mind when it comes to verifying that I can not only metal detect on a city property but also dig / excavate without getting slapped with a fine or worse.

Up to my ____ in Pulltabs, Grant

Tom_in_CA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Up to my ____ in Pulltabs, Grant Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > ...... that limits
> > or prohibits metal detection, it is up to you to
> f
> > ind out. It may or may not be publicly posted.
> >
>
> Pulltabs: I disagree with statement. There are
> no laws or rules out there, in ANY city, that are
> "secret " Sure, they may not be on the sign at
> the park entrance, but they will most certainly be
> down at City Hall in a binder or on their website
> some where.
>
> So for example: if they came up to you tomorrow a
> nd said you were being arrested for wearing a blue
> shirt, what would you say ? You would object and
> say there is no law forbidding wearing blue shirts
> , right? So what would you do if they said the la
> w was secret and there was no way for you to have
> known ahead of time. Therefore you're being arrest
> ed ?
>
> And I reject this notion that there are some laws
> that can't be looked up or known. Every law rule a
> nd Municipal Code can be availed of by John Q publ
> ic somewhere somehow. No need to ask and catch ar
> bitrary safe Whimsical answers.
>
> As far as the one city you didn't like because the
> y forbid Excavating and forbid removing objects:
> if you give me the name of any City you are curren
> tly hunting, I can show you in 10 minutes that suc
> h prohibitions exist there too. It just means you
> didn't ask the right officials with the right word
> combinations and right mental connotations given t
> o them. I can call those cities you currently det
> ect in, and get a no from someone within five minu
> tes.
>
> Because laws that forbid alter, deface, destructi
> on, take, remove, steal, etc....exist in every
> single city in the USA.

Its obvious that a city that has any archaeological, historical and protected nature sites that they will have ordinances against excavation. Congratulations there Tom_in_CA.... You've just stated the obvious, thanks.

No hard feelings Tom_in_CA but you're pushing the envelope of common sense by stepping beyond the threshold of sound judgment on this subject

Ft Pierce, Ocala, Miami, Homestead Fl as well as both Orange county and part of Martin county Florida have strict rules against almost all excavations for any purpose of any kind and limits on metal detection.

Polk county Florida has the most strict absolutely "NO METAL DETECTING / NO EXCAVATION" ordinance and it affects all cities within Polk county ( The Entire County ). This is not publicly posted everywhere. You'll have to search for it on a website or call the county. They'll tell you all about it. If you think for a second that Polk County is easy going, relaxed or gives a damn about your inherent God given inalienable right to enjoy metal detecting.... you are 100% wrong.

All of Florida's State Parks prohibit metal detectors unless you are in a picnic area or a designated zone like from the surf line to the edge of sand dunes. If you detect among, around or within the dunes they will charge you with multiple charges from damaging the sea oats, damaging the dunes, endangering wildlife habitat, disturbing bird nests and a list of other things including metal detecting in a protected area..... if they want too. Some parks do not allow you to even pick up seashells. Some parks do not allow metal detecting in the water but surf line and sand is fine. Some parks have protected areas that you're not even allowed access.

How about this, please stay in your lane Tom_in_CA, Don't irresponsibly invite other people to assume as you do that there are not places that will without warning, give you grief, write a citation and fine you because you're attempting to enjoy the hobby of metal detecting while you're breaking the local law.
It does exist in some places, I live in a place where it exists, its a 100% undeniable accurate fact.

Hopefully everyone else will not act or believe as you do on this subject, most people live in areas where no one gives a damn about metal detecting but I'm sure that there are other areas that do.

Everyone.... a word or caution. Please use some common sense and do not assume that anyone (( not directly or specifically Tom_in_CA )) but anyone with an unqualified, ignorant, irrational and irresponsible opinion on the matter is correct in all instances.

.

Up to my ____ in Pulltabs, Grant



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2018 04:44AM by Up to my ____ in Pulltabs, Grant.

Grant, the scenario you presented about your acquaintance leaves me with several thoughts and more questions than answers.

The first being that he received a written warning before actually being fined that $165. He didn't just get arrested or fined after the first stop. Was the needed permit easy and relatively east to obtain? If so, why didn't he get one? Seems like kind of shaky legal ground for that fine, I think an excavation charge could be defended against successfully although admittedly that would take a degree of effort that most of us would not want to make.

Secondly, he was doing what I call ROW (right-of-way) or curb stripping. Metal detecting that area between the street and sidewalk. I did that fairly extensively for several years, so I have some knowledge of what's involved.

In most (but not all) towns, that little strip of land is considered city property but the homeowner is responsible for maintenance. While it may be technically legal to detect there in most towns, the typical homeowner thinks of it as their property. After all, they mow the grass just like they do their lawn.. If you are detecting in front of occupied properties, you can be assured that someone sooner or later (probably sooner) is going to call the police on you. That's why most people who do ROW stripping without permission do it in front of vacant houses or closed businesses during less busy hours. That still doesn't mean some "askhole" (clever term, btw) neighbor won't confront you or call the police, but the odds go down.

Third, I wonder about what this guy looked like when he was detecting. Was he using a big shovel? A big shovel does look like excavating, a hand trowel does not.

Fourth, was he digging carefully and skillfully so when the cop came over there was no sign of his digging? Or were there torn up patches of grass and other signs of his retrievals?

Grant --

I think you are mis-representing what Tom in CA said. Never does he say "ignore the rules." He says CHECK on the rules, yourself, on the city ordinances website. And THEN, if there are no rules prohibiting metal detecting, THEN feel free to engage in your hobby. He's not saying ignore rules, and challenge someone to come fine you...instead, he is advising against calling to ask "permission" from a bureaucrat. Check the ordinances yourself, and if there's no ordinance PROHIBITING it, then it is "allowed." That's his point, as I understand it...

Steve

marcomo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Grant, the scenario you presented about your acqua
> intance leaves me with several thoughts and more q
> uestions than answers.
>
> The first being that he received a written warning
> before actually being fined that $165. He didn't
> just get arrested or fined after the first stop.

No, he was given a friendly warning, it was documented via a written warning, this was most likely done in the event that he would have attempted to go back to the same area.
He was instructed where he needed to obtain a permit. He admitted that he had no intention of obtaining a " #@$!'ing permit" lol
Gary told me he was going to go to another nearby spot, outside the city limits the next day.
The next day before he departed, he decided that the common area between sidewalk and the street would be a good quick place to hunt, he assumed that it would not be an issue.
He admitted that the cop who interrupted him was rude and he was starting to argue with the cop in defense that he did not need a permit while on private property.
The cop advised him that the city is in full control of this common area, they will ticket and or tow illegally parked vehicles parked 1/2 on the grass / street. The city issues citations for dead grass, garbage and anything else they find as a violation.
The sidewalk is the home owners responsibility to keep clear, clean and undamaged but the city owns it. I remember that Gary said the cop was full of both city ordinance info and crap...lol

> Was the needed permit easy and relatively east to
> obtain? If so, why didn't he get one? Seems like
> kind of shaky legal ground for that fine, I think
> an excavation charge could be defended against suc
> cessfully although admittedly that would take a de
> gree of effort that most of us would not want to m
> ake.

Gary got the ticket regardless of his own words of defense, he had been told where to get the permit but I don't remember where or how far away it was, he had to bring i.d. they did not just email it but again,
he told me there was no way in hell he was paying for a permit.
The last time I had any contact with him he had paid it and had lots of colorful expletives regarding the entire issue.

> In most (but not all) towns, that little strip of
> land is considered city property but the homeowner
> is responsible for maintenance.

Yes, that is exactly what he was told by the police officer who he was ticketed by.


> echnically legal to detect there in most towns, th
> e typical homeowner thinks of it as their property
> . After all, they mow the grass just like they do
> their lawn.. If you are detecting in front of occ
> upied properties, you can be assured that someone
> sooner or later (probably sooner) is going to call
> the police on you. That's why most people who do
> ROW stripping without permission do it in front of
> vacant houses or closed businesses during less bus
> y hours. That still doesn't mean some "askhole" (
> clever term, btw) neighbor won't confront you or c
> all the police, but the odds go down.

Gary was blaming an elderly woman who was sitting on a chair at the front door of her home across the street.
He mentioned that this spectator most likely called the cops on him, she appeared when the cop started talking to him and stayed there until he was leaving.
I didn't have much to say about it with him, he just mentioned it and the likelihood of an ASKHOLE with a phone was a probable.

> Third, I wonder about what this guy looked like wh
> en he was detecting. Was he using a big shovel?
> A big shovel does look like excavating, a hand tro
> wel does not.

Sorry, I did not ask him about any of that so I do not know if he had his shovel or his sharpened v shaped hand digger.

> Fourth, was he digging carefully and skillfully so
> when the cop came over there was no sign of his di
> gging? Or were there torn up patches of grass and
> other signs of his retrievals?

Gary was a fan of my technique simply because its faster to fill the hole. Any soil that is excavated goes onto an old face towel or pillow case and then poured into the hole before the plug is seated.
I an only assume that he was as neat and quick as when we had previously hunted together...... do not know for sure but I'd say most likely he probably had no torn up patches.

Up to my ____ in Pulltabs, Grant

steveg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Grant --
>
> I think you are mis-representing what Tom in CA sa
> id. Never does he say "ignore the rules." He say
> s CHECK on the rules, yourself, on t
> he city ordinances website. And THEN, if there ar
> e no rules prohibiting metal detecting, THEN feel
> free to engage in your hobby. He's not saying ign
> ore rules, and challenge someone to come fine you.
> ..instead, he is advising against calling to ask "
> permission" from a bureaucrat. Check the ordinanc
> es yourself, and if there's no ordinance PROHIBITI
> NG it, then it is "allowed." That's his point, as
> I understand it...
>
> Steve

o.k. well then he's partially correct. Yes I believe that it is easier and quicker to check a website. I've never stated that no one should NOT check a website and only call. No argument there.
When you see a city ordinance that prohibits excavation, if its not clearly written and explained, its better to get clarification rather than pay a fine.
No one has a right to much of anything that is not in some way controlled, monitored or regulated by a city government. Its just the way it is.
When there are no specific guidelines, rules or regulations regarding metal detecting there are many others down here in Florida that an get you a stack of citations because of
prohibited excavation. If you don't know the rules, ignorance of the law will not save you.

Life is hard, its harder if you're stupid. If you don't have the appropriate and adequate information, call city hall, call the city managers office, you can even ask a local leo.
Don't be afraid to get approval, they usually act so appreciative when you do and the responses I've gotten are mostly positive and only very few no's down here in South Florida.
There seems to be a huge fear that these local government employees are magically going to make up their own rules or enforce code that doesn't exist, thats B.S., these city workers are too afraid of complaints or lawsuits that would jeopardize their overpaid existence in most cases.
You would never hunt on private property without permission, its illegal trespass..... all cities and municipalities have code and if they don't have clarity, its up to all of us to be responsible and find out otherwise you take the chance of being fined, that is pretty simple and easy to understand.
I think Tom_in_CA wants be more controversial or possibly adversarial regarding this issue and really there's no need. Do what is right, do what is required, be adult about it and the rest takes care of itself.

Up to my ____ in Pulltabs, Grant

Ain't it interesting the stories we get from being out in our hobby?

The other question I would ask now is did he wave and smile at that lady? Might not have made a difference if she was a complete "askhole" but when I notice somebody watching me I look them in the eye, smile, wave and say hi and they usually return a salutation. Sometimes they may want to talk, but usually they just go on their way. But, eventually everybody gets that unrepentant "askhole".

In my case it was a full blown azzhole and it was a cop. A muscles behind the ears young cocky cop. I was detecting a demo site on a Sunday afternoon where I had gotten permission earlier in the week from the demo foreman. The cop sees me and asks if I'm a worker there. I smiled and said no I'm metal detecting, this is a metal detector. He comes back with a smart ass "I know what it is, we've arrested people for rummaging in theses houses," I told him I wasn't going in houses and I had permission. He asked me from who and I said the foreman's name. Who is he? I tell him and he says I have no permission because the foreman doesn't own the property. Gets my drivers license and tells me to wait. After almost 15 minutes he comes back and says "my boss says we're going to let you off with a warning, but if you come back you're going to be arrested". I couldn't help but chuckle slightly at the absurdity of the situation. Mr musclebound gets perturbed and says something to the effect of, this isn't funny you will be arrested if you come back.

Then he starts asking me questions for what was apparently going to be a written warning. He verifies the info on my drivers license and then asks me where I'm employed. I'm thinking to myself none of your business so I said I was retired. He gives me a funny look and says you're a little young to be retired aren't you. At this point I'm figuring I'm going to answer his questions with my best poker face and leave as quickly as possible, so I say a simple "no".

But then he asks me for my SS#. I say as calmly as possible "no" Do you want to be arrested he asks me. At this point I'm thinking why don't I just lie and invert the last four numbers but I'm also thinking it's highly unlikely he's really going to arrest me. So I say no again and elaborate about identity theft. Then he just glares at me for what seemed like an eternity but was probably more like about 10 seconds. "Get the hell out of here!" he yells at me.

A funny epilogue shortly thereafter. I'm chatting with the last guy to move out of the historically black area. I bring up what happened with the cop and tell him his name and description. "Yes!" he exclaims "I know that MFer!" He proceeds to tell me how he told him to get off his porch and go inside one day for no reason as he was driving by.

Don't ask me if I went back...


,



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2018 06:08AM by marcomo.

steveg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Grant --
>
> I think you are mis-representing what Tom in CA sa
> id. Never does he say "ignore the rules." He say
> s CHECK on the rules, yourself, on t
> he city ordinances website. And THEN, if there ar
> e no rules prohibiting metal detecting, THEN feel
> free to engage in your hobby. He's not saying ign
> ore rules, and challenge someone to come fine you.
> ..instead, he is advising against calling to ask "
> permission" from a bureaucrat. Check the ordinanc
> es yourself, and if there's no ordinance PROHIBITI
> NG it, then it is "allowed." That's his point, as
> I understand it...
>
> Steve


This is the way I understand Tom's stance as well.
Pull Tabs- Sounds like your buddy knowingly ignored the local requirement of obtaining a permit and got nailed for doing so. His own fault. I know of some areas that prevent it and it would be great if they sold a day permit allowing it. I would have no problem paying to detect a good area. There are some military reservations and state parks on some excellent gold bearing ground here in AZ, that are off limits, that I would gladly pay to hunt on. I haven't heard of anybody getting cited or fined for detecting in an area that didn't have a specific ordinance preventing it.

Dean

> This is the way I understand Tom's stance as well.
> Pull Tabs- Sounds like your buddy knowingly ignor
> ed the local requirement of obtaining a permit and
> got nailed for doing so. His own fault.

He claimed that he thought the area he was hunting was not city owned, he said he never heard of that but regardless, he paid for the mistake.
You are correct, he may have simply just ignored everything and caused it himself.


> I haven't heard of anybody getting cited or fined fo
> r detecting in an area that didn't have a specific
> ordinance preventing it.
>
> Dean

With the exception of some people who wandered into a National Park boundary and Gary's incident I've never heard of anyone being cited or fined either.
I do know that the John Lloyd state park just north of my location that has a beach will allow you to hunt the beach and picnic areas but not anywhere else. They have no signs posted stating this. Years ago when I had hunted the picnic area I found out about the parks policy on MD'ing. One of the park rangers happen to show up and advised me, please do not detect further inland past the picnic boundary, anyone beyond that point with a metal detector could face a fine, permanent ban or both. I was on the foot path exit leading into a picnic area, It was very friendly but serious at the same time.

Up to my ____ in Pulltabs, Grant

marcomo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ain't it interesting the stories we get from being
> out in our hobby?
>
> The other question I would ask now is did he wave
> and smile at that lady? Might not have made a dif
> ference if she was a complete "askhole" but when I
> notice somebody watching me I look them in the eye
> , smile, wave and say hi and they usually return a
> salutation. Sometimes they may want to talk, but
> usually they just go on their way. But, eventuall
> y everybody gets that unrepentant "askhole".
>
> In my case it was a full blown azzhole and it was
> a cop. A muscles behind the ears young cocky cop.
> I was detecting a demo site on a Sunday afternoon
> where I had gotten permission earlier in the week
> from the demo foreman. The cop sees me and asks if
> I'm a worker there. I smiled and said no I'm meta
> l detecting, this is a metal detector. He comes b
> ack with a smart ass "I know what it is, we've arr
> ested people for rummaging in theses houses," I t
> old him I wasn't going in houses and I had permiss
> ion. He asked me from who and I said the foreman'
> s name. Who is he? I tell him and he says I have
> no permission because the foreman doesn't own the
> property. Gets my drivers license and tells me to
> wait. After almost 15 minutes he comes back and s
> ays "my boss says we're going to let you off with
> a warning, but if you come back you're going to be
> arrested". I couldn't help but chuckle slightly a
> t the absurdity of the situation. Mr musclebound
> gets perturbed and says something to the effect of
> , this isn't funny you will be arrested if you com
> e back.
>
> Then he starts asking me questions for what was ap
> parently going to be a written warning. He verifi
> es the info on my drivers license and then asks me
> where I'm employed. I'm thinking to myself none o
> f your business so I said I was retired. He gives
> me a funny look and says you're a little young to
> be retired aren't you. At this point I'm figuring
> I'm going to answer his questions with my best pok
> er face and leave as quickly as possible, so I say
> a simple "no".
>
> But then he asks me for my SS#. I say as calmly a
> s possible "no" Do you want to be arrested he asks
> me. At this point I'm thinking why don't I just l
> ie and invert the last four numbers but I'm also t
> hinking it's highly unlikely he's really going to
> arrest me. So I say no again and elaborate about
> identity theft. Then he just glares at me for wha
> t seemed like an eternity but was probably more li
> ke about 10 seconds. "Get the hell out of here!"
> he yells at me.
>
> A funny epilogue shortly thereafter. I'm chatting
> with the last guy to move out of the historically
> black area. I bring up what happened with the cop
> and tell him his name and description. "Yes!" he
> exclaims "I know that MFer!" He proceeds to tell
> me how he told him to get off his porch and go ins
> ide one day for no reason as he was driving by.
>
> Don't ask me if I went back...
>
>

I generally get along with LEO's because I have to. I do not trust them and most of them I would never want to associate with.
Many are overbearing, obnoxious and abusive. Too many of them abuse their privileged of being a public servant and forget whom they work for.
They have zero accountability and this gives everyone of them a cowboy wild west attitude.

Up to my ____ in Pulltabs, Grant

Up to my ____ in Pulltabs, Grant Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Its obvious that a city that has any archaeolog
> ical, historical and protected nature sites that t
> hey will have ordinances against excavation. Congr
> atulations there Tom_in_CA.... You've just stated
> the obvious, thanks.


No. Not just "cities with historical and protected sites". ALL cities, counties, etc.... will have ordinances against excavation. It might not use the word "excavate". It might be "alter". Or "deface", or "dig", etc..... So if you construe such verbiage to mean "no detecting", then ........ how are we seeing show & tell posts daily, from people hunting parks, schools, beaches, forests, etc.. ?

>
> Polk county Florida has the most strict absolutely
> "NO METAL DETECTING / NO EXCAVATION" ordinance and
> it affects all cities within Polk county ( The Ent
> ire County ). This is not publicly posted everywhe
> re. You'll have to search for it on a website or c
> all the county.

Ok, if a place has a specific rule: Fine then, don't detect. But that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about: "Is it the md'rs obligation to grovel for permission? " And as you yourself admit here: It CAN be found on the rules list. So again: No need to go swatting hornet's nests at other places where perhaps no such rule exists.


.
> Some pa
> rks do not allow you to even pick up seashells.

I bet that ALL of them forbid picking up seashells. To test this theory, just call the administering agency of any beach. Ask them: "Hi, can I take , harvest, and remove beach features ?". And I bet that they can find language that forbids "take, harvest, and remove" . Ok, so you tell me: If your daughter picks up a seashell, to use for her grade school art project, is anyone going to care ? Are they going to cuff her ?

> that there are not places that will wi
> thout warning, give you grief, write a citation an
> d fine you because you're attempting to enjoy the
> hobby of metal detecting while you're breaking the
> local law.
> It does exist in some places, I live in a place wh
> ere it exists, its a 100% undeniable accurate fact


I do not doubt that flukes have happened in the course of md'ing. But to take isolated fluke stories like those, and conclude : "The sky is falling and we need to grovel everywhere", is over-reacting.

I can show you news clips of motorists who got pulled over, roughed up, ticketed, jailed, etc... for nothing but a tail light out. I can show you another news clipping of a guy who got a ticket for eating a hamburger while driving. Ok, do you stop driving now ? Do you cease to eat and drive ? Or do you see them for what they are : Flukes. OH SURE: Don't throw caution to the wind. Use common sense. But no: Don't grovel and swat hornet's nests begging for a "no". .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2018 03:20AM by Tom_in_CA.

Post script: I also do not think it's our obligation to go seek clarification on whether verbiage about alter, deface, excavate, dig, etc.... applies to m'ding. Because if those words DO mean we need to ask, then ........ that would mean we need to ask wherever we go. Because, as I saw, the words are in all public land everywhere.

But as I've said before: If we leave no trace of our presence, we haven't alterED or defacED, anything. And yes, I extend that semantics logic to dig and excavate too.

That's not to say that every last person on earth will agree with those semantics. Or that you'll never ever be questioned. But since when is it our obligation to make sure every last person on earth has rolled out red carpets for us ?

And no, I do not think anyone here can come up with an example of a ticket that relied on such catch-all-grey-area verbiage like that. If you can find such an example, it would be for someone being obnoxious who couldn't take a warning. Or some place that has a true "no md'ing" rule.

When I first started detecting back in 1972 or so, I mainly used a screwdriver to probe for coins. If I had to dig a target I couldn't touch with the tip of the screwdriver, I cut a small "V" in the sod and did the peel and replace routine. Never was I accused or accosted for tearing up the ground, and I rarely was refused permission to detect a yard, school, church, etc..

Fast-forward to the 21st century--I use a small hand-digger when detecting finely manicured yards at houses or parks. It has nothing to do with my ability to dig a clean plug or cover my holes in after recovering the target--it's because most homeowners, park officials, etc. don't want to see someone with a shovel digging holes in the ground.

In fields or woods I don't worry about it that much, but I make SURE I fill my holes as best as possible.

Bottom line is, if someone came to my house with a detector and a big shovel and wanted to detect my yard, I'd say no.

Also, who do you think is more likely to be complained on, or asked to leave a state, county or municipal park--the guy using a small hand digger, or the guy digging 1'X1' holes in the ground with a big shovel?

Perception indeed plays a big part. The Perception that a person digging with a big shovel is going to dig a big hole in your yard is all it takes to get the homeowner to answer your request with a kneejerk "no"

Greg (E.Tn) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When I first started detecting back in 1972 or so,
> I mainly used a screwdriver to probe for coins. I
> f I had to dig a target I couldn't touch with the
> tip of the screwdriver, I cut a small "V" in the s
> od and did the peel and replace routine. Never was
> I accused or accosted for tearing up the ground, a
> nd I rarely was refused permission to detect a yar
> d, school, church, etc..
>
> Fast-forward to the 21st century--I use a small ha
> nd-digger when detecting finely manicured yards at
> houses or parks. It has nothing to do with my abi
> lity to dig a clean plug or cover my holes in afte
> r recovering the target--it's because most homeown
> ers, park officials, etc. don't want to see someon
> e with a shovel digging holes in the ground.
>
> In fields or woods I don't worry about it that muc
> h, but I make SURE I fill my holes as best as poss
> ible.
>
> Bottom line is, if someone came to my house with a
> detector and a big shovel and wanted to detect my
> yard, I'd say no.
>
> Also, who do you think is more likely to be compla
> ined on, or asked to leave a state, county or muni
> cipal park--the guy using a small hand digger, or
> the guy digging 1'X1' holes in the ground with a
> big shovel?
>
> Perception indeed plays a big part. The Perceptio
> n that a person digging with a big shovel is going
> to dig a big hole in your yard is all it takes to
> get the homeowner to answer your request with a kn
> eejerk "no"

Yep. Well said. I always ask myself...how would I react if I were on the other side? Then act accordingly. Like Grant said, " Life is even harder when you are stupid". And, when you are stupid, you can screw it up for the rest of us.

Dean

as the man said,and i agree, PERCEPTION is everything!..MOST people will drop a dime on ya BECAUSE you are using shovel in a park!..nothing else! i have been hunting for over 35 years,and i SELDOM even get noticed,never mind cared about! people,for the most part will mind their own business,UNLESS they see ya using a shovel to dig with! (w.t.f.!)
be kind!..lose the sampson in the parks! take 'em into the woods or the fields! that's WHERE they belong!

(h.h.!)
j.t.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2018 05:35AM by jmaryt.

jmaryt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ..... BECAUSE y
> ou are using shovel in a park!.....

Wow, old post.

Be aware that even if an md'r was not using a "shovel" in the park, that you could still raise the ire of a nosy-parker passerby. Ie.: even if you're just using a screwdriver or probe, etc... Heck, even if you have NO UTENSILS WHATSOEVER. Ie.: simply swinging a detector, and not even stooping to retrieve any targets.

Because some people simply have the perception , that when they see a man with a metal detector, that : "Oh, he's going to dig". WHETHER OR NOT YOU ACTUALLY DID.

This is why it's gotten to the point that .... at some upscale fru-fru nicely manicured parks, I simply hunt at night. Or some type odd-ball time like crack of dawn Sunday am, etc.... Out of site is out of mind. So peaceful. So serene. You are simply not going to get every last person on earth to love & adore you. If someone likens this to "sneaking around", ok, fine then: Sneak around.

Video cameras and the lowbrows who use them to pimp the hobby for their own ego satisfaction do more harm to detecting than shovels but please , if you are going to use a shovel in a public park , get a flimsy yellow safety vest and a hard hat to wear while digging with it.