Can we have a good in depth talk about frequency?

Let me state first off that I'm coming at this from a relic hunter view point first. Has anybody ever relic hunted on this forum with 28 kh ,54 kh, or 74kh? I know those are gold freqs. About six months ago I guess Deus released the hf coils. I was told they wouldn't help us in the relic game because they ran such high freqs. So I ran mine in 14 kh and left 28kh and 54 kh alone. TNSHARPSHOOTER and others over on another forum kept telling me you need to run the higher freqs back over you iron loaded sites. Well I finally did. It didn't take long to realize after pulling 20 to 25 non ferrous targets from a small area loaded with iron that we pounded with 7kh and 14 kh that something was going on. Some will say your only going to dig small targets with those freqs. that's not entirely true you also dig buttons. giant dandy buttons all the way to cuffs that were masked and the 14 kh couldn't see them. Out of the 20 to 25 targets I dug above 3 or 4 were buttons including a script a war of 1812 button. I have been using this technique for months now and it works . Its a NEW way to relic hunt and it works . I have tested targets and 14 kh might see or 54 kh might see it but one or the other wont see it. Some low conductive buttons hiding in the iron can be ran with over with the deus in 14 kh and will not even peep on it. Switch it to 54 kh and it smacks it. Or vice versa 54 kh might not see it but 14 kh smacks it. How many of you guys have ever tried this?? How many of you guys have even ever heard of this? It works and I know quite a few people who are doing this and making banner finds on other forums doing so. You can take a beat up iron loaded civil war site and go back over it in a higher freq and find targets others detectors just couldn't see in 14kh, 15kh, 17 kh etc.. So now that you know where I'm coming from. This is why the Nox is such a big deal for us. We are now able to hunt with a machine that can run those different freqs at one time and unlock targets that a single freq just cant unlock. I'm not going to say your going to load a 5 gallon bucket up every time using this technique but you will pull a few relics from a beat up site that quit producing long ago doing this. I found a piece of colonial gold in iron in 54 kh doing this on a colonial site that's hard to dig a bb off of. It was only 2 inchs deep. Why had no one found it? It was laying in a spot with dig holes all around. Go check out the video of the deus and nox where I put that gold piece in iron.. Deus cant see it in 14kh , nor can the F75 or the AT GOLD. Deus will hit in 54 kh .... That's where I'm coming from guys...

There is a reason why Minelab picked the optimum, most effective frequencies to run simultaneously with a multi threading processor capable of analyzing multiple channels.
ML just built a better mouse trap.

Up to my ____ in Pulltabs, Grant

Yes sir I've been doing that with the Xp for the last few yrs with the 9,11 and 11x13 coils. Then i got the hf 5x9 and wow I couldnt believe what it was pulling in my hammered out iron sites using the 28 kHz. Not just little stuff, big finds that u wouldn't believe was possible to miss with other machines or even the other Xp coils.

exactly my point ! Thank you for sharing that......

Since a year I'm hooked to the XP elliptical running it at 28 Khz finding smal silver coins from the 7th century AD. Along the river with much basalt, cokes and iron. Already I found 8 of them. They come in on the Deus from ca. 35 - 50. One thin coin VDI was 32, almost the same as coke.

Coming season I will run the coil at 68 Khz. I tested the small coins on the Monte's nailbord and at 68 Khz they sound much better. Depth for these items is about the same in 28 as in 68 Khz.

I use a testpeg in the field, a plastic tube, long 14 centimeter with on one end a piece of lead 0,9 grams and VID 40 on the Deus. Approx. the same as the coins where I am after.

I'm waiting for a Nox depthtest with the 11"coil.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2018 05:55PM by wilci.

So a hf gold detector could /would work at these site I presume?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2018 12:25AM by u2robert.

Well yes and no? The freq would but how fast is a gold machine? Do they have fast recovery rates?

Up to my ____ in Pulltabs, Grant Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is a reason why Minelab picked the optimum,
> most effective frequencies to run simultaneously w
> ith a multi threading processor capable of analyzi
> ng multiple channels.
> ML just built a better mouse trap.


Optimum frequencies for what exactly?
I think I know why they picked what they did on the low end anyway. Just a hunch.
With more time, I'll know if my hunch is right.
Like when Minelab releases next flagship.
I may have to buy to see if my hunch is right though.

A friend had the 9" hf coil, said he wasn't digging any small targets over 5", so we tried it on a 7" deep silver hammered penny in my test garden, no settings would hit it, the 11" LF coil just got it.
I know it works in nice soil like Calabash has, but on fields around here, add in say 3"- 4" of an air gap for long grass and it's just a surface scratcher.
HF are great in iron, but on many of my unworked fields the targets don't appear till the hard pack which could be 6"+, so realistically at that depth in mineralised soil, separation by any detector is limited.
Certainly on ploughed fields it would be a winner.


wilci Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since a year I'm hooked to the XP elliptical runn
> ing it at 28 Khz finding smal silver coins from th
> e 7th century AD. Along the river with much basalt
> , cokes and iron. Already I found 8 of them. They
> come in on the Deus from ca. 35 - 50. One thin coi
> n VDI was 32, almost the same as coke.
>
> Coming season I will run the coil at 68 Khz. I tes
> ted the small coins on the Monte's nailbord and at
> 68 Khz they sound much better. Depth for these ite
> ms is about the same in 28 as in 68 Khz.
>
> I use a testpeg in the field, a plastic tube, long
> 14 centimeter with on one end a piece of lead 0,9
> grams and VID 40 on the Deus. Approx. the same as
> the coins where I am after.
>
> I'm waiting for a Nox depthtest with the 11"coil.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2018 10:43AM by ghound.

tnsharpshooter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Up to my ____ in Pulltabs, Grant Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > There is a reason why Minelab picked the optimum
> ,
> > most effective frequencies to run simultaneously
> w
> > ith a multi threading processor capable of analy
> zi
> > ng multiple channels.
> > ML just built a better mouse trap.
>
>
> Optimum frequencies for what exactly?

I'm speaking about the low end being at 5khz then up to 10khz. The sweet spot has always been 6 to 8khz on single frequency detectors of the past. This makes sense to me for depth especially on silver.
The 15khz is going to nail jewelry, iron relics and lower conductors. The 20khz and 40hz obviously for small low conductors like tiny gold, micro jewelry and nuggets.
Being able to rapidly process a selected set of 5 frequencies accurately is advantageous over a sweep of say 10 or more as the 5 would be more efficient when attempting to analyze, i.d. and maintain recovery speed.
From what I am surmising regarding the multi i.q., the analysis of multiple frequencies with multiple channels for these frequencies is why the NOX is working so well for everyone.
Less is more, while being fast and accurate.

Up to my ____ in Pulltabs, Grant

Up to my ____ in Pulltabs, Grant Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> tnsharpshooter Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Up to my ____ in Pulltabs, Grant Wrote:
> > ------------------------------------------------
> --
> > -----
> > > There is a reason why Minelab picked the optim
> um
> > ,
> > > most effective frequencies to run simultaneous
> ly
> > w
> > > ith a multi threading processor capable of ana
> ly
> > zi
> > > ng multiple channels.
> > > ML just built a better mouse trap.
> >
> >
> > Optimum frequencies for what exactly?
>
> I'm speaking about the low end being at 5khz then
> up to 10khz. The sweet spot has always been 6 to 8
> khz on single frequency detectors of the past. Thi
> s makes sense to me for depth especially on silver
> .
> The 15khz is going to nail jewelry, iron relics an
> d lower conductors. The 20khz and 40hz obviously f
> or small low conductors like tiny gold, micro jewe
> lry and nuggets.
> Being able to rapidly process a selected set of 5
> frequencies accurately is advantageous over a swee
> p of say 10 or more as the 5 would be more efficie
> nt when attempting to analyze, i.d. and maintain r
> ecovery speed.
> From what I am surmising regarding the multi i.q.,
> the analysis of multiple frequencies with multiple
> channels for these frequencies is why the NOX is w
> orking so well for everyone.
> Less is more, while being fast and accurate.

I could be wrong, but it's not the lower freqs that makes the Nox deep as it is in medium high to high mineral soil, hence why fbs types take a back seat to Nox for depth here.
And this goes for higher conductive, med, and lower conductive targets.
It would be interesting to know, how many different freqs were tried (in one multi freq) setup when Minelab was engineering. And also how few, number wise. Five became the magic number for a reason I think.
And the span chosen too, a good reason for this.
Could the span be moved downwards?
This is what I will be watching for. In future releases.
But by doing, I suspect something (not so good) could be manifested.
We'll see.
That's the hunch I was referring to.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2018 01:14PM by tnsharpshooter.

tnsharpshooter Wrote:

> I could be wrong, but it's not the lower freqs that makes the Nox deep as it is in medium high to high mineral soil,
>hence why fbs types take a back seat to Nox for depth here.

Lower frequencies like 5khz are a longer wavelength and penetrate the ground more deeply than all of the frequencies above that level.
Low frequencies are better at depth than higher frequencies especially for high conductor targets like silver etc
The higher the frequency, the less the mineralized ground will have an effect. It will still have an effect but not as much as compared with lower frequencies.

10khz and 15khz also work in unison and as the conductivity becomes lower these frequencies gradually become more and more effective but only up to a specific threshold again with other factors, target size, conductivity and the normal list of variables.
There is an effective range of efficiency with regards to frequency, its depth and return capabilities on differing targets mixed with ground mineralization, and again with the list of associated variables.

20khz and 40khz make smaller less conductive targets ie small gold and foil ring out. These frequencies do not have great depth due to their shorter wavelengths but react well with small less conductive items


> It would be interesting to know, how many different freqs were tried (in one multi freq) setup when
> Minelab was engineering. And also how few, number
> wise. Five became the magic number for a reason I think.

I would assume that five frequencies became the magic number because there needs to be some separation as frequencies that are near each other are unnecessary / redundant.
For example: The difference between 3Khz and 5Khz are not going to yield a substantial difference in depth nor i.d. or anything else. One over all, universal, adequate low frequency is all that is needed in that range. There would be no need to overload the computer with 3 nearly overlapping frequencies like 2,4,6 khz as they would all return the same data. No shot gunning would be required.
I'm sure they picked 5Khz for its inherent performance characteristics based upon many factors, that would most likely be the varied ground effect, targets, dynamic environmental conditions, and how effectively, accurately and rapidly they can get the hardware and firmware analyze the return data.
I'm sure there are other factors involved, I'm just speculating and as to which has more wight, only the ML engineers would know.

The exact same could be said for the other 4 frequencies that they have chosen, there's no need to slow computation down by overloading the system with redundant data with more frequency analysis than required for any particular frequency spectrum.

> And the span chosen too, a good reason for this.
> Could the span be moved downwards?
> This is what I will be watching for. In future re
> leases. But by doing, I suspect something (not so good) could be manifested.
> We'll see.That's the hunch I was referring to.

I don't know if there could or would be a benefit to shift the frequency range lower or higher. This is a good question to ponder. At the low end of the frequencies, 5khz would have no real benefit being changed to a lower frequency, the depth is sufficient. Maybe for a deep cache mode possibly, Somewhere possibly in the 1khz - 2.5Khz range ? The mid frequencies both 10 and 15 are pretty much optimum for supporting in conjunction with the 5khz and the 20-40khz. The 20 and 40khz have already proven that they will hit hard on sub grain gold nuggets, repeatedly. Would there be a performance enhancing benefit ????

NASA_Tom, feel free to jump in anytime on this.

Up to my ____ in Pulltabs, Grant

I got the Vista Gold Gain with one freq at 30 and went to a site that we pounded with a deus and a racer and the impact. The Gain I was using was pulling out targets I missed and I was impressed with what I found I think I posted a video on my youtube channel...Needless to say, I sold it because it didn't have a display and I had been reading about the equinox 800 and the different freq being used at one time. I think in the right hands iron hunting can produce hidden masked targets. But not everyone can hunt in iron there is a lot going on and a lot you have to listen to and understand. So I look forward to getting the 800 for next season hunting and I am sure they will have smaller coils that could be prove to be killer in iron.

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

It you was just hunting hot ground would you set it to just the high frequency?
If you was hunting for deep relics in good ground would you run it on say 5? Or let it run in multiple frequencies?

We don’t know what ML is doing with frequencies in the Nox - and beyond the not very illuminating marketing department produced info they have given out - it is likely they will not clarify. After all, for over a decade they have stuck with the clearly misleading explanations of the FBS/BBS technology.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

Potomac run Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It you was just hunting hot ground would you set i
> t to just the high frequency?
> If you was hunting for deep relics in good ground
> would you run it on say 5? Or let it run in multip
> le frequencies?


There is some misconception going on about freq and depth, and it seems ground mineralization is the culprit.
For example on my 9" deep clad dime.
Single freq Ops using Nox which freq is giving best signal? Not 5khz, rather 20 kHz - clad dime being a higher conductor.

As far as running Nox, don't ask me why but seems depth advantage ( signal quality) goes to use of multifreq using park 2 on both lower and higher conductors- in my soil.

For real hot ground I can't speak to, but right now if I Had to make an educated guess based on what I have seen in my soil testing and using.
In real not ground I wouldn't want a 600 unit period, rather a 800 unit and run speed at 7 or 8 depending. And I would suspect park 2, field 2 or one of the gold modes using multifreq would give best performance -- higher freq weighting.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2018 01:33PM by tnsharpshooter.

Quote Grant:"I don't know if there could or would be a benefit to shift the frequency range lower or higher. This is a good question to ponder...... The 20 and 40khz have already proven that they will hit hard on sub grain gold nuggets, repeatedly. Would there be a performance enhancing benefit ????"

I think there could be benefits from a "Nugget Nox", perhaps running at 15/30/45 or 20/40/60 kHz. As nuggets are often found in difficult ground, advanced multi-freq techniques should work well for such hunting.

( I have mentioned in another post on here that I'm surprised ML didn't build on BBS/FBS technology and make a nugget-frequency variant, such as a 20/80K rig. )



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2018 07:11PM by Pimento.

Frequency shifting does all kinds of things you wouldn't expect, especially on a multi frequency unit. For instance, frequency shifting is how you fine tune the Correlate mode on the V3 after you pick a Span limit number.

HH
Mike

Pimento Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Quote Grant:"I don't know if there cou
> ld or would be a benefit to shift the frequency ra
> nge lower or higher. This is a good question to po
> nder...... The 20 and 40khz have already proven th
> at they will hit hard on sub grain gold nuggets, r
> epeatedly. Would there be a performance enhancing
> benefit ????"
>
> I think there could be benefits from a "Nugget Nox
> ", perhaps running at 15/30/45 or 20/40/60 kHz. As
> nuggets are often found in difficult ground, advan
> ced multi-freq techniques should work well for suc
> h hunting.
>
> ( I have mentioned in another post on here that I'
> m surprised ML didn't build on BBS/FBS technology
> and make a nugget-frequency variant, such as a 20/
> 80K rig. )

Perhaps there could be some benefit for certain conditions.
As you raise the frequency and shorten the wavelenght in the high frequency range, the loss of depth is much greater as compared with mid and low frequencies because the increments are more substantial.

The NOX Park 1, Gold 1 & 2 programs are strong on sub grain gold during air tests. [youtu.be].
This would obviously not be a truly 100% accurate test unless the gold is in the ground.
Usually where ever gold is found, the ground has higher mineralization levels which creates loss of depth.
The air test still has some relevance since most VLF detectors won't hit on these small gold pieces but the Nox 800 did.

I'm really unsure if the difference between 40Khz and 60 to 80Khz would create a benefit if you're prospecting in high mineralization, which forces us to select lower sensitivity, which then causes loss of depth and all the while if you're working a frequency such as 80KHZ there is not much depth to begin with.
I would want the lowest frequency possible that will detect a small grain size nugget to ensure that I retain as much depth as possible especially in mineralized ground.
This seems to be a quandary to an extent, higher frequencies which have less ground effect and less depth vs lower frequencies that are slightly more sensitive to ground effects but have greater depth.

Thoughts anyone ???


Here are a few other interesting NOX 800 gold videos.

Here's another gold test with the NOX800 VS a few others that won't see a gold chain. [youtu.be]
Gold Chain in salt water [youtu.be]
calabash digger also has many interesting videos regarding the NOX 800.

Up to my ____ in Pulltabs, Grant

Pimento Wrote:

> I think there could be benefits from a "Nugget Nox
> ", perhaps running at 15/30/45 or 20/40/60 kHz. As
> nuggets are often found in difficult ground, advan
> ced multi-freq techniques should work well for suc
> h hunting.

This is a most interesting idea, and I like this after thinking about it for a while.
An "Equinox Gold" Nugget Blaster with the ability to run those upper frequencies stacked in such a frequency span that would maintain depth and speed.....hmmm.
Pimento.... I think you're on to something good here.

Up to my ____ in Pulltabs, Grant

Minelab moved beyond multi frequency VLF IB detection for nuggets with the wildly successful GPZ 7000. Only problem is the price.

For less money - a GMT, GB2, GM1000 is not likely to be knocked off by a ML machine for less than $5k - why would they?

That leaves the way open for others.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Minelab moved beyond multi frequency VLF IB detect
> ion for nuggets with the wildly successful GPZ 700
> 0. Only problem is the price.

> That leaves the way open for others.

Exactly, there is no way in hell I would pay 5k or more for a detector.... its time for someone to undercut ML and give them some competition in that market segment.

Up to my ____ in Pulltabs, Grant

Quote Grant:"I would want the lowest frequency possible that will detect a small grain size nugget to ensure that I retain as much depth as possible especially in mineralized ground."

That's the problem with nuggets, they come in all shapes/weights, but 'nugget hunting' machines seem to be geared towards finding the smaller, lighter ones, for which 15 ->50 KHz seems a more appropriate operating frequency choice. I assume if you find enough 5 grain gold it pays off.
And as most folks on here know, coil size and target size are inter-related. If you're after physically tiny gold, a small search-coil will give you more depth. Which is inevitably going to compromise the machines ability to find larger stuff at distance.

"I'm unsure if the difference between 40Khz and 60 to 80Khz would create a benefit if you're prospecting in high mineralization ground"
The primary purpose of multifrequency is to help overcome the effects of 'strong ground', be it high mineralisation or high iron. The frequencies used don't necessarily have to match the target frequency. So, for example, if you used my suggested 20/40/60 kHz choice: if you swept over a 20kHz nugget, obviously the 20kHz component of the transmission will 'hit' the nugget hardest, but the 40 & 60 will still pick up the ground signal, and help the detectors brains to seperate the ground signal from the target signal.
And the secondary purpose of multi-freq (in the Equinox implementation), is that it would also detect a 60KHz nugget well, using the 60kHz freq component, and using the 20 & 40 KHz to help determine ground signal.
So even if there were no '60kHz nuggets' to find, the use of 20/40/60 freqs would still help you find the '20kHz nuggets' deeper.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2018 09:10AM by Pimento.