New Fisher Manta

lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since production PI machines from Fisher won’t be
> available this year – you’ll have to wait till at
> least next year for a chance to play with them.

>Recently, I saw it hit a nickel buried in black striped sand at a beach in San Diego at 17 - 18” - a Nox 600 in Beach 2 hit the same nickel, buried in the same spot at 7 - 8” max with a VDI of 3 vs. the VDI of 13 on the >surface.

Thanks Rick for posting what you did/can in your past two posts. I can think of a few fresh water sites that would benefit from that kind of depth in black sand. I'll get back to waiting now.

Cliff

If its a beach machine it should be designed/tuned for gold. Thats what we are looking for...... i dont care if its same depth on pennies and above.... notch them babies out just like iron and lets gold hunt. We all know the way it is ..... theres going to be a LOT of trash in that nickel range. Rick.... any idea how its going to react to bottle caps? Will it put them mostly in the iron range? Can that be adjusted? I know we have a lot of complaints about the Nox for them...... but most shallow ones we can tell. Its the deep ones that people dont like........ yet with any machine its likely wed dig them with a mixed signal. This machine may answer some of the questions......... like just how much small gold is being lost and never seen...... and of course chains. Im also hoping we see the machine sooner in the year than later. Winter hunting here can bring some sand movement which still puts us just a bit out of range for some gold...... and recent drops get fewer. I guess i dont understand the significance of NOT releasing some positive information from testers or Fisher. I realize what gets tested doesnt always end up in our hands. Management makes decisions based on what will sell....... vs what may have been the better machine for the more experienced user. This is a PI so those comfortable with a VLF or new users looking for an easy machine out of the box .... a turn on and go.....may pass. Id like a machine with the power to do some serious hunting...... but obviously allowing those users to tune it to their (my) ability while learning. The Gulf doesn’t have nearly the wet sand that the coasts have so that pus us more in the water or dry sand.....so for us it’s about it’s ability to do more in the water



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2018 03:47PM by dewcon4414.

@dewcon As a niche inside a niche they might try to make it more accessible who knows... To get the most sell they can.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2018 01:42PM by youdig.

dewcon4414 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If its a beach machine it should be designed/tuned
> for gold. Thats what we are looking for...... i
> dont care if its same depth on pennies and above..
> .. notch them babies out just like iron and lets g
> old hunt. We all know the way it is ..... theres
> going to be a LOT of trash in that nickel range.
> Rick.... any idea how its going to react to bottle
> caps? Will it put them mostly in the iron range?
> Can that be adjusted? I know we have a lot of co
> mplaints about the Nox for them...... but most sha
> llow ones we can tell. Its the deep ones that pe
> ople dont like........ yet with any machine its li
> kely wed dig them with a mixed signal. This machi
> ne may answer some of the questions......... like
> just how much small gold is being lost and never s
> een...... and of course chains. Im also hoping w
> e see the machine sooner in the year than later.
> Winter hunting here can bring some sand movement w
> hich still puts us just a bit out of range for som
> e gold...... and recent drops get fewer. I guess
> i dont understand the significance of NOT releasin
> g some positive information from testers or Fisher
> . I realize what gets tested doesnt always end u
> p in our hands. Management makes decisions based
> on what will sell....... vs what may have been the
> better machine for the more experienced user. Th
> is is a PI so those comfortable with a VLF or new
> users looking for an easy machine out of the box .
> ... a turn on and go.....may pass. Id like a mac
> hine with the power to do some serious hunting....
> .. but obviously allowing those users to tune it t
> o their (my) ability while learning. The Gulf doe
> sn’t have nearly the wet sand that the coasts have
> so that pus us more in the water or dry sand.....s
> o for us it’s about it’s ability to do more in the
> water

I've been told for many years by detector professionals and dealers that gold prospectors that use discrimination on their detectors will always miss gold and lose depth. "If you want to find gold, your going to have to dig some trash and dig everything". Maybe Rick can explain how the Manta can use it's discrimination settings to avoid fishing hooks, sinkers, pennies, pull tabs, bottle caps, foil, bobby pins, etc. and if it has a "notch" discrimination capability.

Bill

It’s not a notch. As the “iron mute” control is advanced the “tendency” for high conductors to be muted or give the multitone signal is increased.

LE.JAG, who has used the protos more than anyone has stated that use of the iron ID control incurs a depth reduction from all metal of (I think he said) 10% or so). I am assuming that the loss is proportional to the setting of the iron mute control, but I am not certain.

As far as “missing gold” - I think you are referring to the possibility with a nugget detector of it falsely ID’ing a nugget as ferrous and thus passing it by. From the videos I have seen of the Manta, I think that is unlikely. The iron ID function on a PI is based on how long the target signal persists after the pulse is shut off. The ID mutes or multitone long persisting signals - typically ferrous and high conductor targets. Gold signals (except perhaps large 24kt items) do not persist beyond the iron ID cut off point and therefore continue to give the high tone characteristic of low conductors on the Manta.

Having said all that, LE.JAG has stated that he prefers to hunt in all metal and use the ID function as a cross check - exactly as the majority of beach hunters do whith their Excalibur’s and CZ’s.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2018 06:57PM by lytle78.

It would be really neat (and beneficial) if...…… somehow...…… all-metal mode and ID mode could be run Simultaneously. (Stereo).

Bill when you say disc you loose depth...... isnt disc merely what the machine allows the headphones to hear? The machines hears most everything its tuned to under the coil. Those tones may vary based on depth and other targets around it...... you could miss some targets because of clipping of the tones, being just out of range, modulation of targets (gain).......or just you not knowing that was a target.

Rich ..... yes a good many of us do hunt in AM or PP mode on those machines. It allows us to run just out of Auto on the Xcal so we get full sensitivity, MUCH faster recovery (no nulling), very little falsing from coil flip, and we can really pick up those weak targets.

Tom..... didnt the DFX use that sort of calling it mixed mode? My first goal is to locate a target ....... and AM does it best, then i want a way to identify the undesirable targets. With a PI id have to say IRON since it doesnt give us tone options. If we could ever get a PI to run like a VLF...... in true AM then switch to 5 tones for target ID...... i could sell all these other machines lol.

Rcik,

The "missing gold" comment happens when medium to moderate iron discrimination on a PI is used by detectorists that don't want to dig ferrous and trash signals. Maybe, the Manta designer developed a totally different discrimination system where- "Gold signals (except perhaps large 24kt items) do not persist beyond the iron ID cut off point and therefore continue to give the high tone characteristic of low conductors on the Manta". Very interesting and exciting if it works as described.

NASA Tom's comment is great: "It would be really neat (and beneficial) if...…… somehow...…… all-metal mode and ID mode could be run Simultaneously. (Stereo)". Hope he knows something.....

Bill

PI detectors take a sampl of the return signal at a set interval after cutoff of the pulse current.

There is a minimum “pulse delay” time in microseconds. On some PI detectors this is a fixed delay - on others, this can be adjusted. Up to now no commercial PI detector has been able sample much sooner after cutoff than 10m sec. In fact, folks commonly assert that you can’t run such short delays in salt water. Through careful design, Manta prototypes have successfully run as short as 6.5m sec in running salt water. It’s a function of very careful design of low noise electronics and special coil features. The shorter the minimum pulse delay, the more fast decaying signals you can detect. Small gold is a very fast decaying signal. there is a limit to this however - at some point, the salt water signal is detected. This depends on the volume of salt that the coil sees. for that reason, diving detectors typically have much longer minimum pulse delays.

On the other end of the time line, decaying signals from large, ferrous, or other high conductors, persist for very much longer.

By using two samples - one early and one later, the Manta is able to assign the early ones (low conductors) to one tone and the longer persisting ones to be muted or give a multitone. The minimum pulse delay is adjustable as is the “split” point (via the iron mask setting).

This is all very different than using phase shift of return signal to do discrimination the way VLF IB detectors do. There are advantages and disadvantages to both methods. No PI to date can provide finely graduated discrimination and target ID like a detector which uses phase shift or some other type of analysis such as the more complex systems FBS/BBS machines use.

For the intended use - finding gold jewelry at salt beaches, the Manta is highly focused and optimized. It provides not only unprecedented depth on low conductors but the ability to largely ignore black sand and to a degree “see through” co-located and even superimposed iron. I have seen a private video of one detecting a gold ring not only complete surrounded and covered by rusty nails, but even beneath the same nails - with a proper high tone - for low conductor (I make no claim as to how much separation would be possible in that situation, but certainly not touching). The same nails without the ring were silent or multitone.

The two sample operation is similar to that used on the TDI, but with new engineering which allow the use of the two samples in a new fashion to provide the ID of high conductors while clearly hitting on low ones.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2018 10:07PM by lytle78.

So Rick....what kind of toneal ID do you think this machine may offer? Two... multi....or Hi Low?

Dew - I know I have posted this numerous times - watch - all is there..

[m.youtube.com]

In all metal - all targets - same tone

In iron ID one high tone for low conductors - high conductors your choice of mute or multitone.

You have seen this before - watch it again.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2018 01:54AM by lytle78.

If LE.JAG is right - and Tom D as well. The last gold rush in the Western World is all the old gold jewelry which has lain on the hard pan under our beaches. Unreachable except for freak storm movements of sand - but a good bit of it - just beyond reach of current metal detectors. Some existing powerful PI detectors could perhaps hit it, but at the risk of thousands of dollars of non waterproof detector going “splash”.

In a few (or maybe not so few) months we will (hopefully) have a chance to see if the Manta (or whatever Fisher decides to call it) can prize open at least part of “Davey Jones” Locker, If so, it might be a bit like when the Minelab PI nugget detectors hit Australia - Eldorado.

Or maybe everybody will decide that it’s just a nice new tool for beachhunting.

My prediction - way more than nice. I’m hoping for “Eldorado”. Foolish? Who knows - we will see soon enough.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Or maybe everybody will decide that it’s just a ni
> ce new tool for beachhunting.
>
> My prediction - way more than nice.


Thats my fear, and I will be shelling out $$$ for yet one more detector in the pursuit of deep gold.

I dont fear that..... water machines pay for themselves and they havent been cheap until the Nox. Ive got several machines now setting around...... IF this one proves its self id let some go fast. Id love to get it down to just a couple of machines..... reliable machines.

Rick..... hey im old man cut me some slack lol. Besides .... you need to pop that video on occasionally because there is a lot to read thru ...... which some wont. But the reason i asked was that was a first generation....... just wondered what may have changes. There was a good tone difference between iron and the stuff we are looking for. Ill tell you what people need to look at thou........ scoops. Those round nosed shovel noses are going to be work in the hard pan. Ive had some movement here recently that got past what most think of the hard pan........ its a shell pan. If the gold is getting into the shell pan ...... its work if you are doing it in the water. High bank beaches like we have in the Gulf gets the big fan and other shells .... they may move just enough to correlate gold to its equal weight. Real frustrating to work in with a DULL pointless scoop like a shovel. What im finding with the Nox is there is a LOT of minerals in that sand hard pan so you might well miss some small stuff being blinded with a VLF. I think now its the hurry up and wait time. More information now days ..... lets a trickle of info out...... years ahead of a finished product.

lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If LE.JAG is right - and Tom D as well. The last g
> old rush in the Western World is all the old gold
> jewelry which has lain on the hard pan under our b
> eaches. Unreachable except for freak storm movemen
> ts of sand - but a good bit of it - just beyond re
> ach of current metal detectors. Some existing pow
> erful PI detectors could perhaps hit it, but at th
> e risk of thousands of dollars of non waterproof d
> etector going “splash”.
>
> In a few (or maybe not so few) months we will (hop
> efully) have a chance to see if the Manta (or what
> ever Fisher decides to call it) can prize open at
> least part of “Davey Jones” Locker, If so, it migh
> t be a bit like when the Minelab PI nugget detecto
> rs hit Australia - Eldorado.
>
> Or maybe everybody will decide that it’s just a ni
> ce new tool for beachhunting.
>
> My prediction - way more than nice. I’m hoping for
> “Eldorado”. Foolish? Who knows - we will see soon
> enough.

Hi no one mentioned that you will have to dig huge and deep holes most of the sand scoops will crack after 3 sessions..............................I got 1 of the 2 G5C modded by Alexandre(The other is own by LEJAG) I did d a few sessions with no luck( to be honest) and it was super deep ,and very physical to dig craters,I cant wait to try it again.I also own a CTX and it doesn't lack power either.


RR

I went back and found my post where I put the link to the video on Vimeo where I had added English captions to the 20 minute video of the prototype test from a few years ago.

The link was screwed up so I fixed it.

Here it is again.

[vimeo.com].

Also - guess which detector can hit this ring - remove the ring and be silent over the nails? (You may have to click at the bottom of the screen to “go to website” in order to see the image). It is - of course - only a drawing, but the Manta really does it, even when the ring is put UNDER the board instead of among the nails.

[www.dropbox.com]

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2018 04:25PM by lytle78.

Hi,


lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If LE.JAG is right - and Tom D as well. The last g
> old rush in the Western World is all the old gold
> jewelry which has lain on the hard pan under our b
> eaches. Unreachable except for freak storm movemen
> ts of sand - but a good bit of it - just beyond re
> ach of current metal detectors. Some existing pow
> erful PI detectors could perhaps hit it, but at th
> e risk of thousands of dollars of non waterproof d
> etector going “splash”.
>
> In a few (or maybe not so few) months we will (hop
> efully) have a chance to see if the Manta (or what
> ever Fisher decides to call it) can prize open at
> least part of “Davey Jones” Locker, If so, it migh
> t be a bit like when the Minelab PI nugget detecto
> rs hit Australia - Eldorado.
>
> Or maybe everybody will decide that it’s just a ni
> ce new tool for beachhunting.
>
> My prediction - way more than nice. I’m hoping for
> “Eldorado”. Foolish? Who knows - we will see soon
> enough.


this is a good example of the El Dorado
early November, I came across the spot

a beach that has been digging like never before
and I was able to get a century of jewelry

the oldest gold target is dated June 25, 1903





so of course I dig a lot
a ton of waste / lead / bullets ...






the first week / a lot of silver jewelry
and almost as much gold!




the 7us makes the detector more sensitive to gold than silver
and the second week (fifteen days later) will prove it

I will find some gold targets / miss the first time
and a larger lot of silver jewelry

== 7us the gold / silver ratio you get
with conventional detectors, is different

the loss of acquisition on money
is brutal // on gold it is progressive

what I am trying to explain
it's easier to miss a silver target
than a gold target === to 7us





second week









I do not know, if I have to show you
the gold of the first week
I would not want to cause a heart attack

but that's what you can expect on a good spot
6 days == with the beach pulse
the most sensitive on gold that exists at the present time





in your place I would go knock on Fisher's door
and shout I want one

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Detector used : Fisher Aquamanta /

Pulsepower Goldscan 5c / Aquastar / Goldquest SSV3 / Nexus Coronado / Vista Gold

What a gold PIG!

Love the pic.

HH
Mike

Notice all the black sand - a total depth killer for all non-PI detectors - ALL.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

Wowzer!!... Buying a Manta and moving to the seashore.

LE.JAG how much do apartments rent for where you live?

El

LE.JAG, thanks for all the info on the Fisher Aquamanta and pictures of your finds. Love the tons of waste / lead / bullets...picture, you are using the all metal mode and digging everything to find the good stuff!
I think some other beach hunters will be surprised about the amount of effort it takes to = success!

Bill

I am lucky i was warned

RR

cobill Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> LE.JAG, thanks for all the info on the Fisher Aqua
> manta and pictures of your finds. Love the tons of
> waste / lead / bullets...picture, you are using th
> e all metal mode and digging everything to find th
> e good stuff!
> I think some other beach hunters will be surprised
> about the amount of effort it takes to = success!
>
> Bill


Very good points!!!

RR

Notice the absence of rusty iron

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

NICE!!

Looking like a real game changer!

Like seeing that black sand speak's volumes..

Man that pig is SWEET!!

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

cobill Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> LE.JAG, thanks for all the info on the Fisher Aqua
> manta and pictures of your finds. Love the tons of
> waste / lead / bullets...picture, you are using th
> e all metal mode and digging everything to find th
> e good stuff!
> I think some other beach hunters will be surprised
> about the amount of effort it takes to = success!
>
> Bill


He obviously is not digging everything because there is no rusty iron in the pile of trash. Those were all potentially good targets. Why would anyone pass up digging them?

It's the number hours he spends doing it that is getting the results.

.

So Rick........ you saying hes just finding potential targets and not digging iron? Im assuming hes NOT showing the amount of trash dug. Im also not seeing much lighter gold......is that intentional based on what his setting has to be to get the larger gold? Curious as to what K gold his finds are? Wonder if those targets were found using 7uS? I ask that because id like to know what ill have to give up for depth on the larger gold/K ...... and what i might find giving up the larger gold with a lower uS? In other words...... whats the versatility of the machine? Id like to see some hunts with very low uS..... has to be some small gold and what kind of trash one would have to dig at that low uS. Is his setting avoiding the foil level? Those are impressive photos....... though most of us shouldnt expect the same results. Obviously he knows what hes doing and where to hunt. Just look and Joe (ole beach nut)........ 100+ rings for the last 3 years using the Xcal. He knows the machine and does the research. This is not a walk out there and start digging gold machine. Reality check...... this machine will take time to learn and may frustrate some users quickly. BUT..... its just whats needed for the advanced hunters or those willing to learn it. Glad to see Fisher stepping up....... now just dont dumb it down for the masses let um grow into it so there can be advances made sooner than later.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2018 11:59AM by dewcon4414.

+1 with dewcon , there lot of field knowledge involved with those find.

dewcon4414 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>now just dont dumb it down for the
> masses let um grow into it so there can be advance
> s made sooner than later.

EXACTLY..

With modern tech there should be away to have a unit have two ways to hunt with it..the masses or the Guys who want it full tilt..If its got potential to push past the competition dont attenuate a unit to stop the gripping of the people who cant see its benefit..There's more of them than there are of the other sad to say...But the guys who have spent there lives wishing for something more out of a machine and know what they want welcome the what shall I call it unorthodox ways they know to have success to get hold of a unit that works with that mindset.Im always looking for a unit to make inroads into iron unmasking and seek out those type units..only a couple are making inroads for my type some may call whacky needs..A beach hunter who has Studied and KNOWS what it it takes to move on from the NORM wants more for themselves too..I know the yearn they may feel...you know the stuff's there but the machines limitations leaves you at times with a unsatisfied feel.

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla