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New Fisher Manta

Posted by Frank in NH 
Re: New Fisher Manta
February 08, 2020 07:54PM
T- 20/21 days till release right??
Re: New Fisher Manta
February 14, 2020 01:43AM
= to or < T-15 days till lift off.
Re: New Fisher Manta
February 14, 2020 02:43AM
Hey TNSS. I’m pretty sure you don’t know more about it than I do - and - in the immortal words of Sgt,. Schultz in Hogan’s Heroes - “I know nothing!”

It will be ready when it is ready.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold
Re: New Fisher Manta
February 14, 2020 02:51AM
Latest word was Feb release.
No one has said anything to the contrary.
Re: New Fisher Manta
February 14, 2020 11:22AM
I just get the feeling ...... here we are over 2 years later.... that WE have a machine that will do THIS...... but WE are still trying to get it to do THIS. My understanding was Tom was getting a machine...... to my knowledge he doesnt have one yet...... that tells me unless Fisher is giving him one at N hour we arent going to see this machine for awhile. I also understood we would be hearing more from Fisher on these threads before the release........ all i hear is crickets. Im just hoping this isnt another one of those machines ya have to dumb it down to get it to work in the salt water so the average user can use it....to the point there is no significant difference from what im using now. Water machines all seem to work great in wet sand....... BUT fall way short IN the water. Does anyone actually get in the water with these machines...... chest deep where things change? It seems if it works in the wet sand .... thats good enough. OK....... thats my rant for the day.
Re: New Fisher Manta
February 14, 2020 12:12PM
Yeah that’s what I my understanding was too IRT Tom gettin one, okay hmmm.

Oh well, look on the bright side dew, we still have the MDT 8000, and that’s the BEST thing in the salt right now!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2020 12:12PM by Aaron.
Re: New Fisher Manta
February 14, 2020 12:41PM
Opps! bump



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2020 12:43PM by Aaron.
Re: New Fisher Manta
February 14, 2020 12:58PM
Aaron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah that’s what I my understanding was too IRT To
> m gettin one, okay hmmm.
>
> Oh well, look on the bright side dew, we still hav
> e the MDT 8000, and that’s the BEST thing in the s
> alt right now!

So in my understanding....On ring size objects....The MDT is performing roughly 2 inches deeper in a salt environment than the Equinox?
Re: New Fisher Manta
February 14, 2020 01:17PM
YES. Obviously that could go either way depending on your conditions....minerals ect. We dont have a lot here in Fl......well except out deeper say chest deep we can get that GRAY pushed up mud under the sand in the trough that can make most machines really chatter and loose depth.

Aaron..... ive got no complains about the MDTs finds. A real eye opener thou.......i cover a lot of water in 7 hours..... and may end up with some pocket change and a little trash...... and you think ..... dang i can get 14" on a 3 gram gold ring.....just how deep is the good stuff and will ANY ,machine get to it. Nice to be the only guy with one i can say that because i know the other water machines..... i just have to get the coil over gold. Still have hopes for the AQ thou and that it will move and PP easily in the water...... time will tell. A lot of people who have the Nox will talk themselves out of the AQ because of price......we could get to use this for months before they make the leap..... or not. They keep setting on this thing thou and recent drop times come ..... like spring break and summer....... and its going to have to prove its self FAST or like you said i have the MDT. Recent drop periods to me isnt a time i want to do a lot of fiddling with a new machine.......unless its easily learned and not to time consuming to hunt with.
Re: New Fisher Manta
February 14, 2020 01:18PM
Yes, the Tarsacci gets about 2 inches more depth than the Equinox in the wet sand is what I've been seeing in my tests.

I couldn't care less if the Impulse works in the water or not. I want it to be super deep in the wet sand and hopefully be able to see through hot rocks.

I'm very happy with the Tarsacci wet sand performance, but I have yet to see it surpass the Equinox in the hot rocks.

Right now our beach conditions are pretty dismal. I haven't hunted the beach at all this year yet.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2020 01:55PM by Badger in NH.
Re: New Fisher Manta
February 14, 2020 01:38PM
Hmmm...interesting info and questions on the TARSACCI and we’re on the AQ thread.
I’m taking these to the TARSACCI thread as I’ll be on the beach soon....,
Re: New Fisher Manta
February 14, 2020 02:55PM
Ya we got off track there a little but it maybe reasonable to be discussing the two machines (MDT and AQ) because of their depth and potential
Re: New Fisher Manta
February 22, 2020 01:01PM
[www.fisherlab.com]

Don’t see Impulse AQ here yet. Reckon this means February’s release scrubbed?

Wonder if the future newer model Tarsacci will release before Impulse AQ?

Would be nice to see how Impulse AQ’s Tone ID works at deeper depths.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2020 01:09PM by tnsharpshooter.
Re: New Fisher Manta
February 22, 2020 02:45PM
tnsharpshooter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Would be nice to see how Impulse AQ’s Tone ID work
> s at deeper depths.

I would like to see that too. So far, all the videos have been pretty low quality. Why is that?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2020 02:46PM by Badger in NH.
Re: New Fisher Manta
February 22, 2020 07:27PM
The only videos released so far were done by Alexandre Tartar or LE.JAG. No one else that I know of has had a prototype without being bound by an NDA which forbids them releasing info.

As far as Tone ID at depth, first remember that in all metal, all targets return the same high tone. I will now try and explain the discrimination function and its results.

Now if the question is do the ID modes of multitone and mute provide the same depth of detection as the all metal mode, the answer is no. The depth difference has been progressively reduced as the development of the AQ went on.

The the depth penalty is due to the action of the discrimination system. the discrimination is achieved by analyzing the decay of targets return signals over time.

WARNING - I am not a physicist or an electronics engineer. The following is based on what I believe to be correct based on several years of studying PI detectors and the information Alexandre has shared on various forums and in private communications between him and I.

Pulse Induction detectors do their target analysis in the time domain - that’s why Whites called the TDI by that name. A strong current is created in the coil which creates a magnetic field. This is transmitted to the ground and any magnetic or metallic targets are energized by it. This current is abruptly cut off with the result that a very high voltage pulse is created. Targets which have been excited by the pulse of current continue to radiate the induced signal at a an ever decreasing signal strength which decays exponentially (drops off quickly and then persists at a lower rate of decay for some time longer. Each target has its own curve - called its time constant.

Low conductors of all sizes decay very quickly and high conductors and ferrous targets persist longer - have a longer time constant.

In all metal there is only an early sample taken of the target signal and so the decay is less - all targets give their full short pulse delay signals and all sound a high tone.

When either of the multitone or mute modes are selected, an addditional sample of the delay curve of the target signal are also taken at a later point in time and therefore further down the delay curve where the signal strength is ugh weaker than it was in the first sample. A comparison and analysis of the two samples result in longer persisting targets being either assigned a low tone (multitone) or are muted (mute mode).

The action of this analysis of the second sample is on the later and therefore relatively weaker signal. It involves amplifying the second sample so that the analysis can take place. This results in an increase of noise and the slight reduction of sensitivity to longer persisting targets.

In this process the depth of detection of all targets is somewhat less than in all metal which operates on only the earlier stronger signals. The lower conductors, with their fast decaying signals are less effected however than higher conductors or ferrous targets with their longer persisting signals.

Alexandre has posted elsewhere that the effect is that the loss in discriminate modes for all gold jewelry below 22kt (regardless of weight) is minimal perhaps 10% less depth than the same target in all metal. So a thin gold ring detected at 12” in AM might be detected at 10.8” in discriminate. As the conductivity and therefor the target’s time constant increases however the difference is depth is larger - for 22k it might be 20%, for 24k depending on size they might return a low tone or be muted.

So, in practical terms, the iron ID function works to the full depth of detection, but that depth is somewhat less than in all metal - although jewelry below 22k is not severely affected.

But what about deep iron or that large 24kt Asian ring? If the system works as I have explained, if you can get a signal from it in multitone, it will ID correctly with a low tone. If you hear a deep iron target in all metal and you switch to multitone, it should either give a low tone in multitone or disappear due to the depth loss described above. Remember, long persisting targets seem to suffer more depth loss than low conductors with their fast signal decay

What about a 14k ring at the edge of detection depth in all metal? You may or may not get a signal in multitone or mute due to the 10% or so depth loss.

If all this was clear as mud - my apologies, but I have actually worked pretty hard to BEGIN to unserstand this stuff. Once I have a machine to play with for an extended period it will be easy enough to document actual tests of various targets at various depths.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2020 08:03PM by lytle78.
Re: New Fisher Manta
February 22, 2020 09:26PM
Here is Alexandre’s explanation for some of this stuff :

____________________________________________________
For reasons of technological confidentiality, it is obvious that I could not discuss certain technical details. I can only share my knowledge in a relative way in order to give a comprehensive understanding satisfactory to the reader. So I'm going to do a little popular science oriented to "PIs".
 
All metal detectors based on an impulse principle depend mathematically on the ‘exponential decay’. This exponential decay is multiple, it is a series of exponentials nested in each other.(Ground effect + target + etc). Each exponential decay corresponds to a time constant.
Each target has its unique time constant. I mean by target, rings, gold nuggets, ground effect ...
 
Target size is indeed an issue when looking at this for the first time.
But once the size of the targets is removed from the equation (yes, this is easily doable) the time constants are homogeneous and identifiable without drifts.
 
Analogue analysis is not enough to deal with this kind of problem, digital processing is essential.
However, analogue analysis can be greatly improved to meet certain research expectations without losing too much sensitivity. This is what is done in the IMPULSE AQ and has never been done before.
 
The IMPULSE AQ is one of the first models in a range of PIs, these future models will be more and more upscale. I'm not talking about gadgets here, but technology. This detector will however already be classified among the high end of the market for beachcomber. The IMPULSE AQ has a purely analogue analysis.
 
Although this analysis is analogue, it differs greatly from the other models.
This analysis has been improved and it compensates for the majority of the time constant identification problems of gold jewellery.
 
The IMPULSE AQ is not a coin shooter, it is only intended to detect gold jewellery and this on all types of sand saturated with sea water.
 
Although some coins or silver rings have long time constants, not all of them will be rejected in "Mute" mode. But as mentioned above, this is not a coin shooter, so that is not our goal.
 
People who want to detect coins and objects that are not gold can find on the market a multitude of metal detectors, examples Equinox 800, BBS etc ...
 
These prospectors will then be confronted with prospectors who will have the IMPULSE AQ and will lose 20 to 30 cm on a 2 gr ring in 18K gold in the best case.
In the worst case, they will not even be able to detect a large gold ring on volcanic sand.
This is another of the characteristics of the IMPULSE AQ, this model is provided with a specific mode which makes it possible to detect in volcanic sand saturated with sea water with a reduced loss of sensitivity.
 
The IMPULSE AQ cannot however be used to search for gold nuggets, other models are provided for this, they are more sensitive and do not need to compensate for the conductivity of seawater.
These systems are designed differently…
I cannot say more about the various technologies under development at this time.
 
The IMPULSE AQ has the following modes:
 
ALL METAL
TONE
MUTE
VOLCANIC SAND
 
 
The discrimination by analogue analysis of the time constants of the IMPULSE AQ allows it to place almost all of the gold jewellery in "high pitch"
 
All jewellery below 22K whatever the weight will be detected with a minimum loss of sensitivity (10%)
22K jewellery will have a greater loss of sensitivity depending on their weight (20%).
For 24K jewellery, some will be detected in low pitch depending on their weight.
 
But in all circumstances, the sensitivity in MUTE / TONE / or VOLCANIC SAND mode is extremely superior to all VLF, and BBS on the market. (from simple to double)
 
In ALL METAL mode, there is of course no analysis of time constants so, no loss of any kind.
 
Iron is detected in all-metal mode by its characteristic double beep (provided the sound is at the limit of detection). This double beep is also present in Tone mode.
 
The IMPULSE AQ has many other advantages that competitors do not have.
 
It was once said in the forums that it was impossible to descend below 10µs of pulse delay on the sand saturated with sea water. This figure is of course to be taken lightly, because It is not difficult to design a PI with a short pulse delay but it is difficult to design it with a strong coil current!
 
The IMPULSE AQ has a powerful coil current and it is now placed at 7µs of pulse delay, which gives it a increased sensitivity on all types of jewellery sizes.
 
There has been a lot of work at this level to decrease the influence of the conductivity of the salt, maintain a very high stability and a small pulse delay.
 
For all these years of research, the IMPULSE AQ has been a tremendous development platform for my future technologies, already completed for the gold nuggets market.
 
 

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2020 09:27PM by lytle78.
Re: New Fisher Manta
February 22, 2020 10:46PM
Now that I have inundated all of you with text, here is my conclusion.

This thing will kick you know what. Early users will explore their own “turf” and develop approaches and techniques which yield extraordinary results. Just hope it’s not on you beaches!!

Or maybe it will prove to be a “damp squib” much like the TDI. In that case, i expect I will concentrate on one of my other hobbies for a while - Crow is not my favorite poultry!

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold
Re: New Fisher Manta
February 29, 2020 02:58PM
I won't write a diatribe to inform folks. Looks like a no go on Feb 2020 release. When will unit release?
I'll guess 21 century some time. Surely I will be correct.
Re: New Fisher Manta
February 29, 2020 05:45PM
Rick provides informative and useful information---only 2 diatribers on the forum.
Re: New Fisher Manta
February 29, 2020 05:55PM
Carl Moreland posted on the “H” forum that it mighy take 6 months for the AQ to launch. He is right - it might be 6 months, it also might be 1 month (I’m not betting on the latter). At this point Nobody knows and they won’t until the go-ahead with full-scale production is given by Tom Walsh - the CEO. Tom is a careful and meticulous guy and it’s his company - no shareholders breathing down his neck or analysts commenting on the stock price or P/E ratio.

If he had already released the AQ for full-scale production, a planned release date would be out.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2020 01:49AM by lytle78.
Re: New Fisher Manta
March 01, 2020 08:37PM
This guess about the Manta has gotten real real old.
Re: New Fisher Manta
March 24, 2020 10:57PM
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