Let’s design the perfect beach detector

I started a thread over at Findmall last year - it got good inputs from beach hunters - some of whom are on this forum. I explained that the Manta PI detector Project was being developed by Fisher into a real production machine - although no information on its likely release was available.

With the passage of time and the thread here in the last few days on a new Fisher detector, I thought I would post here and see if anyone wants to put in their 2 cents worth. The Fisher PI project is moving right along. Nobody is saying when final pre-production models will be ready for test by selected recognized beachhunters, but it can’t be too much longer - I hope!

So here’s a chance to let a development team know what you think the perfect beach machine should be like. Let’s agree that we are talking about metal detectors achievable by transmitting and receiving VLF frequencies using Pulse Induction technology - please save sonar, ground penetrating radar, drone detection etc. for another time. Here’s a link to the other thread if anybody is interested.

[www.findmall.com]

I know Carl Moreland at First Texas reads this forum, so our ideas will be noted.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2018 12:56AM by lytle78.

A lot of people shy away from a PI just because they havent been able to do much with iding iron. In fact they seem to be pretty hot on it and you end up digging more of the tiny iron DEEP and wasting time. In my case we chase a lot of recent drops ..... so you have to be able to move along. A good PI needs to allow you to work an area knowing with some certainty if its iron...... if thats done...... then what information can you get from those other targets like size... shape ... depth.... or maybe type of metal. Most water machines arent going to miss a target in the water 4 or 5 inches deep...... except for very small gold so we need have it sensitive enough to reach and id those targets. Wouldnt it be awesome to have a TID screen with a PI? Thou hunting with the Xcal and CZ shows you dont need it. It has to have enough power.... which means batteries..... but who wants to carry around a batter the size of a CTX anymore? We dont need these fancy combat looking machines........ small unit on a light CF stick. It would be nice to have a PI without a lot of knobs....... lets bring it up to date. Less moving parts the better. How about some real audio waterproof headphones that arent hard wired? Its a shame we have been putting together better waterproof headphones than some companies. Machine capable of 30' depth. Im strickly wet sand and water....... so the simpler the better. Warranty and price is important....... who wants a $2500 machine that is about like one much cheaper. Lets make this a real beach machine with the obvious target GOLD.... especially those pieces we just pass over right now. I dont need it to do dirt...... id like to see a PI that wasnt a nitch machine... only pull it out on certain beaches.

Dew

the good PI, the ones I use
recognize iron very well
you have to know raised the coil
to be in limit of acquisition of the target, and the one double beep
announces 95% of iron

in saturation, recognition to sound, will not be so easy
the manta marks very well iron, including all metals mode

- the headphones and sound quality, underwater remains a big problem
all waterproof helmets use the same speaker
the sound is quite denaturer, by their qualities ...

Some time ago I had imagined a waterproof helmet
using the IST system

[www.youtube.com]

a system designed for divers who have painful eardrums
keep your ears and tympani dry
up to 80 meters deep

a system designed for divers who have painful eardrums
keep your ears and tympani dry
up to 80 meters deep

a mask of this type equip with quality earphone
would get a perfect sound underwater
equivalent to research on earth, which would be a revolution

only, as always there is a cost of production
which is not always feasible with mass production .....

- but if you hunt in the water,
you can still tinker with something
with this idea

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Detector used : Fisher Aquamanta /

Pulsepower Goldscan 5c / Aquastar / Goldquest SSV3 / Nexus Coronado / Vista Gold

I used to Teach English as a Foreign Language (long time ago - too complicated to explain) - in that “trade” they talk about “World Englishes” - how the language has long ago escaped the UK, US, Canada, British Commonwealth - and become a world language with hundreds of variants.

LE JAG - you have your own dialect of English - although you may be the only one who speaks it!!!

No need to apologize - English has escaped - it belongs to the world - and all varieties are equally valid!

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2018 12:54AM by lytle78.

It was mentioned in the Findmall thread, but worth more consideration - hydrodynamic coils and lower shaft. A shaft with an aero-blade shape. A coil with rounded edges on the left/right extremes, even if it makes the coil wider as a result. 'Hide' the coil cable, if not actually inside the shaft, make a notch in the outside of it for the coil to sit in. Have a low-drag coil bolt, even if it would need a tool to adjust, eg. a 6mm hex Allen key. Typical Fisher coils have ribbed coil lugs - a special fixing nut that locates on the ridges is a possibility, only the bolt part needs adjusting.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2018 02:53PM by Pimento.

Ive learned from using the CTX...... a shaft large enough to hold the coil ISNT what i want. Moves like dragging a dead horse. I also run my coil STRAIGHT up the shaft not coiled in most cases. They use plastic clips on some of the gold machines to hold the cable in place..... perhaps a long snap on concealing the cable along side the shaft would work? At least it would reduce the water displacement. Not much you can do about the portion from the lower part of the shaft to the coil vibrating when moving thru the water. One day maybe they will figure out how to loose the coil cable and still make the coil talk to the box underwater.

Can you explain further your comment about ...... the Manta marks very well iron? Many of us dont dive so piezos work pretty well sealed only by aqua seal over them and not being encased. Some of us even use audio sear speaker in our wader phones that we dont snorkel with. Are you saying the Manta has hard wired phones? I hope not....... a good M12 so we can swap them out quickly sure would be appreciated. Many of us now use M12 connectors or cables so we can use the phones on the moded Xcal/CTX/ and even the Nox.

the coil is round
it is the best choice for a PI
the detection cone is more accurate
what is important to point the target
and even more at great depth......

the choice of the outer cable is also mine
with clips, allows to have a more compact cane once fold back
more convenient for transportation

mode all metals, iron recognition is really good
the ferrous gives a characteristic dual sounds
reliable in over 90%

of course, you can also switch to reject / break mode
either the iron is cut or multi tone it gives a serious sound


I prefer all metals, the sound is smoother
and allows to hear the slightest variation / so deeper
there is a non-waterproof quality helmet
for the waterproof helmet, the choice is not yet fixed

waterproof helmet, a big brand
intra-auricular / some gives a sound of very good quality under water
or simple waterproof helmet

------- do your sugestions,
Fisher will take all good ideas into consideration ---------


++ had the opportunity to test an equinox this weekend
in a black sand well mineralize
at 30 cm the equinox was in limit on a ring 18k / 6gr
sound limit and erratic display

the manta slammed full pot
good it's not the scoop of the century
I think CTX is better than equinox
but still a good test

PI’s ability to “see through” black sand are well known. VLF IB detectors, even multifrequency ones, are severely limited by black sand. The long video of an early manta prototype at a beach in France showed this clearly in the first 3 minutes or so - the Manta proto isn’t bothered by a thick bag of black volcanic sand, a ML Sovereign is blocked by it.

[m.youtube.com]

Worth noting that the Fisher PI will no doubt look completely different than the hand-built proto in the video.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2018 04:26PM by lytle78.

Regarding this: "maybe they will figure out how to lose the coil cable, and still make the coil talk to the box underwater.
This is easily achieved, I think. Radio would work for short distances, especially if you don't use the worst frequency possible, 2.4GHz. And infra-red is the other obvious choice, with a fibre-optic cable transferring the signal.

there are some things i like about the CTX a lot...... but everything the CTX has found the Nox hits on it at greater air tests. Its always going to be a flip of a coin with the current water machines. Ive only found the one hollow open earring ring that the CTX air depth was about 1/2 the Nox....... and i dont think in the water it would have hit on it. NOW......... if the Manta can clearly call iron ..... or better yet a dang bottle cap lol with the depth and sensitivity it claims...... brother im in. Price......wonder what that will be? Not that it matters to most of us beach guys....... many gave $2400 for a CTX that leaked and didnt have a salt setting at first. Jag..... we going to have knobs or buttons?

dewcon4414 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> there are some things i like about the CTX a lot..
> .... but everything the CTX has found the Nox hits
> on it at greater air tests. Its always going to
> be a flip of a coin with the current water machine
> s. Ive only found the one hollow open earring ri
> ng that the CTX air depth was about 1/2 the Nox...
> .... and i dont think in the water it would have h
> it on it. NOW......... if the Manta can clearly c
> all iron ..... or better yet a dang bottle cap lol
> with the depth and sensitivity it claims...... bro
> ther im in. Price......wonder what that will be?
> Not that it matters to most of us beach guys......
> . many gave $2400 for a CTX that leaked and didnt
> have a salt setting at first. Jag..... we going
> to have knobs or buttons?


if the capsule / cap is oxidized
he will see the iron
but most one is a plating / non-ferrous ......

in France, we have small red coins / copper clad
the inside is iron (the bastards)
manta take them in nonferrous / we can push the rejection
but the more we push the rejection / the more we end up losing depth and gold

it's always a question of compromise
later, digital discrimination
on which Alexandre works
may be the difference, but not for the first versions .....

Designing and building the highest spec and perfect beach detector 'will not' find you anymore items on its own,a detector using what ever operating platform that is chosen is just basically a big lump of expensive plastic and electronics inside it,even switching it on it still wont find anything,its the skill of the operator that bring all the magic together,a skilled and knowledgeable person that has honed his skills counts more in my mind than designing 'in theory' the perfect beach detector.

The perfect beach detector is one that requires very little skill to operate.

.

J and D and Badger - I suspect you both are right. The key is a tool that is simple and elegant in it’s operation - yet powerful so that the most experienced operator can do wonders easily and novices can know that the tool is optimum at all times - not needing special settings or magic incantations to yield superior results.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

But dont we want a detector that we can challenge our skills and still leave us saying ...WOW? Something thats not watered down for the new guys? Thats where a great platform begins.

A detector that can find small gold and tiny gold (not micro-gold........yet)............in a wet-salt environment........ will surely revolutionize the way we think/detect. Even the nay-sayers that would just assume small & tiny gold 'slip' through their scoops....... may have a change-of-heart. Sensitivity to tiny gold is a extreme eye-opener. If a detector can do this.......... (in many cases) discrimination becomes a secondary notion.

It is hard enough to willingly/willfully 'choose' a PI unit for the beach........ because of the lack of discrimination of iron (bobby-pins/steel bottle caps); sooooooooo............ there is a requirement that "something else" TRUMP this PI shortcoming. Sensitivity to tiny gold.......... and/or greater depth on very low conductors..... prevail. To find a (say) 3gm ring one inch deeper; may not be enough justification to select a PI over a full-discrimination/ID VLF unit.

Highly mineralized (black sand) in concert with wet-salt......... can (fairly easily) justify the selection of a PI over a VLF........... due to much-better-punch............ that would normally (otherwise) not be achieved.

On a highly tuned PI detector that is running on 6.5uS or 7uS......... with accordingly 'highly tuned' coil.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,., it is very doubtful that any other coil will work to this premium capacity.

Im kinda dumb about searching in saltwater....what about the AquaSound ?? I think made in Florida. Can this idea model be expanded on??

to answer several questions
I will tell you a story
not a legend, lived the ...

January 2013
on a beach in France
I found my first Spanish gold coin
2 escudos
found with a goldquest SSV3 (10,000 PPS / 10us) = low voltage 12 volts
with a 14 inch Australian / carbon coil



after cleaning the area
lead, copper balls ...
2 days later I found a ring of the same era
22k amethyst / with trace of black enamel

a great memory



and then, nothing ...
I redid the area many times without success

the context: a closed bay
safe from sea or sand shots and hardly moves

6 months later, I got my first Manta
the V3 was at 8us / 17 volts / coil 12pouces
no iron rejection

from the first week I went back to the place
the gold coin and the ring / inevitably


and I dig a lot of targets again!
very small hunting and fishing lead
and among all that = a gold coin of 1 escudos
very deep in a black sand



some 18k rings and a jade Buddha on 18k mount
results of the first hunting manta
I had offered the Buddha to Alexandre, he looks like him



this is where we can understand the usefulness of a very low delay add to the high tension and silence
he finds targets that others simply can not see

since 2013 the machine has evolved a lot
more powerful
more sensitive
and quieter


the Fisher manta will make you find targets
that you can not even imagine

of course you have to dig more often
deeper on the big
but the small targets are right there = you do not hear it

more waste
with or without iron rejection / you have to choose according to the beach.....

but as I already said,
anyway: gold will be at the rendezvous




I must return to this spot
with the latest FISHER manta, the story may not be over

Wow.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wow.


LOL, yes

a good ad for 7 us
and everything is true
I had told the story at the time on a French forum ....

I hold to my statement about chasing small items in the water.

I have been freshwater hunting with my Equinox. Yes, people are already swimming here. I have the 920 Diamond scoop and Nuttall scoop. Both have drain and sift holes that are too big for the size targets it is picking up. Meaning a scoop change or modification is in order if you want to pursue small targets in water. If In wet sand at the beach, this won't be so bad. In the water where you can't see...it is a problem. I could not recover most of the signals I received in the water. Several I was able to recover after multiple attempts, ended up being .22 bullets, casings, and split shot. All these read 10 and lower...small gold range. The only feasible ways I can see to recover these targets is going to be diving under and using a pinpointer. Or...putting a cover over the holes in the scoop and scooping til the target is in the basket, then walking to shore to dump the contents and going thru it that way. It has slowed my recovery time down dramatically.

use a sieve on a buoy
saves time

[www.youtube.com]

7us will not only give small targets
he takes rings 2/3 gr / deeper than the others
some are just a deep scoop
only you do not hear them ..

again, the pulse gives an advantage, with the length of the sound
which allows to determine the size of the target // with a little experience of course

If you would like me to test it on the Treasure Coast beaches of Florida just let me know.

This is what I found with a Detector Pro Head Hunter Pulse.

[www.wesh.com]


ROBOCOP

Robo.... get in line buddy lol.

Daniel...... lots of people think like you and if it goesn throw the holes move on. Takes a little practice getting thos tiny targets in the water. rarely do i leave a target out there. U can use a sifter and iust dump the scoop.... but i have 1/2" holes in mine... jyst have ta keep enough sand and shells in the scoop. Just dont shake it out.

I was in chest waders thinking the water would still be too cold but it didn't feel that way and was also afraid to submerge my machine. I had the wireless headset on and did not know if the unit was submersible like that or not. I didnt want to risk killing it due to my ignorance. So I was limited in depth I could go, and in mobility. What I need is a floating sifter with small mesh. That way I can use the scoop as just a long handled means to trap the target...once I get it in the scoop, I can dump the contents into the smaller mesh and save me from having to go to shore to dump it out.

Freshwater lake beach hunting and saltwater beach hunting are vastly different. The sought after targets are similar but that's about it. If we are designing a beach machine, would it be able to handle the challenges that each beach style presents? Are we talking water hunting or just wet sand/dry sand, or both?

Daniel...... even each beach can be different. Fresh water beaches can really be a DIRTY JOB....... nothing dissolves so you have a lot to sift thru and you best have a SUNSPOT scoop to get thru the hard pan. Sifter is your answer....... and you dont have to look after each target..... just dump and ensure target is there. Most of the time it will naturally sift as you move. Fresh water is kind of like park hunting after a party in some cases lol.

This is easy...

Light/Ergonomic - No more CZ/Excal/CTX monster machines
Inexpensive (<$1000)
PI Machine
2 tones - iron vs non iron
Waterproof up to 10 ft and then maybe a diving version that would probably be heavier.
Can change coils/headphones

Things that would be nice but are not must haves to me...

Multiple tones
ID Numbers on a screen
Depth
External speaker
Clock - yep I loved the clock on the CTX. Saves me from looking at my wrist watch while detecting lol

_________________________________

Nox600, CTX, CZ21, Excal II and White's DF with 920i stealthscoop...I live and hunt at the beach in Wilm NC

Adam B - I suspect Fisher is going to make you very happy - sometime.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

I had a couple of aquasounds. They work on sungle freq14khz.... they have good depth...Unless u run into black sand that kills um. The coils are crazy heavy out of the water and requires a lot of coil control in the water. They are just a Nautalus in a box.

We have to remember and what Tom pionted out... ther is bigger gold targets than u think our detectors are missing. That extra punch and sensitivity to gold can give us the depth we may need to grab some missed gold. Its not all dropped through scoop stuff. We have a lot of sand pushed in.... even a PI with the current Us makes little difference. ...but there are targets in the depth range just not seen.

robocop Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you would like me to test it on the Treasure Co
> ast beaches of Florida just let me know.
>
> This is what I found with a Detector Pro Head Hunt
> er Pulse.
>
> [www.wesh.com]
> sibly-linked-to-1715-spanish-fleet/10034643
>
>
> ROBOCOP


impossible to open the link in France
displayed:
Sorry, this is not available in your area........

I do not know yet, if a pre-series will be entrusted to testers

would surely be a good pub shot for Fisher
to find some gold coins with the first machines

+ Aquamanta was developed to deal with salt mineralization
and optimize for seaside hunting
but of course you can use it in fresh water
that no more - no less