Question for Tom Dankowski, and/or anyone re: gold coins vs military

There's a nasty rumor afloat that Tom D. could shed light on this. But anyone else who knows, please chime in:

A supposed good place for gold coins to be found at, is US military @ 1850s. And thus, for example, the reason for the gold coins found at Camp Floyd (which operated from 1858 to 1861).

But how about into the rest of the 1860s, at western forts ? How about western forts that date to the 1870s ? Was this rule of thumb for officer's pay the same demographics in these later decades too ?

Hmmmmmm. Where's the Gold Coin thread! It's a very 'high views' thread.

NASA-Tom Wrote:
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> Hmmmmmm. Where's the Gold Coin thread! It's a very
> 'high views' thread.


Must've been before my membership date of 6 months ago. Or I somehow missed it since then. Anyone got a link to this specific thread ?

Specifically to answer whether the supposed phenomenon of gold coins at western military sites: Whether this is relegated to just a set of time/years, or whether this spanned multiple decades. Ie.: not only the late 1850s (ala Camp floyd fame), but also if the same was true of pay @ western military 1860s, 1870s, etc...

I know that in CW camps/battles, gold coins are all but un-heard of. So I'm guessing they were not paying in gold there (or paying at all, for forced conscript, etc...). So for purposes of this question, it's the western expansion forts, camps, etc... that they had during the building of the RRs, telegraphs, indian skirmishes, etc....

[www.dankowskidetectors.com]


I used keyword SPECIE in search under your post

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2017 02:56AM by Keith Southern.

Guilty as charged

I do remember that thread, inspired me to buy Q. David Bowers book that I've now apparently misplaced.

Thank you for that, Keith. A thread well worth revisiting!

Yes, thank you for the link Keith. I see my name in that thread, haha.

But 99% of those inputs are about gold coins in general. Ie.: their TID's, etc....

My question is specifically about their usage in western expansion military pay. I see a few passing vague references to that in the thread. But the subject got mixed to circulation in general. Ie.: so the thread was not specific to just military.

We all know the story of Camp Floyd (1858 to 1861). Where scores of gold coins were found. And it was attributed to the fact of the method of payment to soldiers at that time. But my question specifically is: Did this CONTINUE in the decades of 1860s ? 70s? 80s ? (specific to military method of pay, not for the "population in general"). And this is excluding CW action states/soldiers, for purpose of this question. Just for westward expansion soldiers.

I gather from Tom D's info, that there was a dip in circulation of gold coins after April 1862 (so I'm assuming this meant for pay to military in those years as well ?) And then he says "resumed Fall 1870, through to the mid-1880s". But was he talking about the population IN GENERAL ? Or was the military also still paying (as they had during the Floyd years) in gold in later decades still ?

Tom,

You've read the book on that?

Rich (Utah)

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Just one more good target before I go.

Gonebeepin' Wrote:
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> Tom,
>
> You've read the book on that?
>
> Rich (Utah)


Which "book" are you referring to ?

Hey Tom, get yourself an inexpensive scratched up $1.00 U.S. gold coin and do some tests with it. Very helpful..

Detectorist Wrote:
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> Hey Tom, get yourself an inexpensive scratched up
> $1.00 U.S. gold coin and do some tests with it. Ve
> ry helpful..


Two of my 15 gold coins were $1 golds. So I'm not asking about TID's. The question is: Did the military trend to the same gold payment methods all through the 1860's and '70s ? Or was the Camp Floyd years (1858 to 1861) a unique time in their practices/policies ?

I understand Tom D's conversation about circulation in general (the general population of odds-of-circulation/finding). But the question here is limited to *just* the military. Was the phenomenon that caused the gold coin finds at Camp Floyd, still the method/practice of the western-expansion of the decades FOLLOWING that, as well.

I have no problem with TID's

You still using the Explorer?

Detectorist Wrote:
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> You still using the Explorer?


Yeah. That's become my go-to machine for 98% of everything. I keep a Bandido I on hand for certain iron-ridden-sites.


The first gold coin I found (1994) was with a Whites Spectrum. A few found with a Whites eagle. A few with an excalibur, and the rest with Explorer II's.

Tom........ I know nothing specifically about Camp Floyd. BUT....... when the economy re-stabilized .... several years after the Civil War...... gold coins did indeed return to circulation. And yes, the military headed this effort! To include..... out West.

NASA-Tom Wrote:
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> did indeed return to circulation. And yes, th
> e military headed this effort!


Thanx Tom D. That answers my question.

Oddly, for those that have read the "In Search of Johnston's Army" book (the account of md'ing at Camp Floyd), they would see that the ratio of gold to silver coins was very good. I don't have the book in front of me know , but when I get to my work desk later today (where I have the book), I'll get the ratios and report back to this thread.

Off the top of my head it seems that the ratio was something like 1/3 to 2/3. Or 1/5 to 4/5, etc..... So that, for example, if you could find only 5 coins, you might expect that 1 would be gold, etc..... But at a certain military site(s) I can think of out west (1860s, 1880s, etc...) they do NOT at all bear those statistics out. It is seemingly ever silver coins, with very few if any gold coins.

Oh well

Good thread, good info. Thanks to the Toms.

Could it be that the finding of only/mostly silver way out of proportion to the circulated coins could just be because it is so much easier to find than gold? Most old sites of this type should have lots of trash which would make most detectorists screen out a lot of the gold range.

Champ Ferguson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
....
> Could it be that the finding of only/mostly silver
> way out of proportion to the circulated coins coul
> d just be because it is so much easier to find tha
> n gold? Most old sites of this type should have lo
> ts of trash which would make most detectorists scr
> een out a lot of the gold range.


I would say "no". Because there is NO SHORTAGE of md'rs who have the "relic mindset" of dig-all (except iron). Heck, some CW sites have EVEN been stripped of all iron. Thus trust me: there are sites where md'rs have dutifully dug every single conductive hint (foil, etc...). Yet gold coins are not "jumping out of the ground".

Ok. For those who have been waiting for the drum-roll: I studied the grand-totals finds tallies from the "In Search of Johnston's Army" book. A western military fort (quite expansive) that spanned 1858 to 1861.

And if my math serves me right: 246 coins were found (I'm sure that was sans modern nuisance flukes).

Out of that 246: 143 were silver or copper, and 103 were gold. Thus that's a ratio of 41 % of the found coins being gold.

This ratio isn't squaring is the silver-to-gold ratio at some western-expansion military sites/camps/forts I'd got the tallies on. Hmmmm. Those (later 1860s to 1880s) are 100 silver/copper and zero gold .

Hmmmm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2017 08:23PM by Tom_in_CA.

Get yourself an Impact. Those gold coins will jump out of the ground and land in your pouch.

Hi Tom_in_CA,

I know I am responding to this a bit late, but I had the same question when the book came out and decided to do some research to find out. I think I can add to what the others have said. The period from 1847 through 1861 is the sweet spot for Military sites with potential for a gold coin find. The reason for this was the "Specie Clause" of the Independent Treasury Act of 1846. The specie clause stated;

That on the first day of January, in the year one thousand eight hundred and forty-seven, and thereafter, all duties, taxes, sales of public lands, debts, and sums of money accruing or becoming due to the United States, and also all sums due for postages, or otherwise, to the General Post-office Department, shall be paid in gold or silver coin only, or in Treasury notes issued under the United States...

The law also required that all funds paid out was to be in gold, silver, or Treasury Notes (short term Govt. bonds with interest payable in gold, not greenbacks). This part of the law stated;

...every officer or agent engaged in making disbursements on account of the United States, or of the General Post-Office, shall make all payments in gold and silver coin or in Treasury notes, if the creditor agree to receive notes in payment...

Army payrolls had to be in gold or silver, and transporting large sums of money from the nearest Subtreasury in either San Francisco or Chicago in the form of silver alone would have been impractical. Therefore, I believe the troops were paid mainly in gold coins, with just enough silver to make change. In the book one soldier indicated that they spent all of their time gambling and drinking. Combine drunk soldiers with handling tiny gold coins and you have a recipe for lots of lost gold.

The party was over by February 1862 when the Legal Tender Act was passed. This act repealed the Specie Clause and authorized the issue of 150 million in greenbacks which were used to pay the troops and military suppliers. The banks were no longer able to supply gold and silver to the public because they had loaned all that they had to the US Treasury. This resulted in suspension of specie payments (banks could no longer pay out gold and silver coins on demand). Most of the gold coins that have been found in Civil War camps are dated 1862 or earlier. All through the rest of the war the troops were paid in greenbacks which depreciated with every military setback by the Union Army. It was not until January 1879 that gold coins returned to circulation for most of the US until 1916 when there was a World-Wide shortage of specie brought on by WWI. California, and to some extent Arizona and Oregon largely refused to accept the greenback and gold coins were used there continuously though this whole time period.

Good Luck and let us know if your search for the elusive gold coin is successful!

Kent



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2017 01:43PM by BigSkyGuy.

Big Sky--thanks for that very interesting bit of American history.Good luck to you.

Wow Kent! Can I ask you to repost that on the gold coin circulation thread. Let me go and see if I can find it......... and 'bump' it to the top.

I'm so short on time (right now)....... and still need to help others with data........ to include small/tiny/micro-gold info.

Kent, do you realize what a high bar you are setting for your future posts?

I just finished glancing through one of those "you're bad, no you're bad" threads on this forum. Kind of depressing, and certainly nothing that advances anybody's knowledge of detecting.

You are a breath of fresh air here, my friend. I've never been so impressed with a new member after just two posts.

Hopefully you'll keep your knowledge spigot turned on and freely flowing!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2017 03:51PM by marcomo.

Found three gold coins in Gen. Banks 1861 camps along with a slew of seated. Troops were paid in gold and silver.My friends also found some digging in Southern Maryland. Most were one dollar coins!