The fate of Tesoro?

Tone and visual ID may be great for stabbing clad in a park
or cherry picking copper/silver from old sites but it offers
zero benefit if you want gold coins or gold jewelry.
I think that’s always been the advantage of an older
Tesoro or White’s detector. They make you dig more targets
that ID would convince you were tabs or foil balls or other trash.

In the end, regardless of what style detector you prefer.........
Your spade and your eyes are the only foolproof form of discrimination!!!
Dig the trash or leave the gold behind!!!

I agree and dig it all most of the time as I relic hunt. Part of the fun of hunting to me is when a detector sounds off like your over silver or any other high conducter. I get excited knowing I have a high tone under the coil and it MIGHT be something good. With a Tesoro that part of the excitement is taken away from me . We all have different preferences and a multi toned machine is a must have for me.

TabZilla Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tone and visual ID may be great for stabbing clad in a park or cherry picking copper/silver from old sites but it offers zero benefit if you want gold coins or gold jewelry.

I think having adjustable iron audio is a big benefit. I took a detector to an old adobe site that was already well pounded by a plethora of Minelabs, Tesoros and even F75s, but I took a detector there that had adjustable iron audio, set it to low so I could still hear iron, but non-iron tones would be much more pronounced, no discrimination, and went right into the iron zone and pulled out a beautiful Phoenix button. That could've easily been a gold coin.

calabash digger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Part of the fun of hunting to me is when a detector sounds off like your over silver or any other high conductor. I get excited knowing I have a high tone under the coil and it MIGHT be something good. With a Tesoro that part of the excitement is taken away from me . We all have different preferences and a multi toned machine is a must have for me.

Have to agree with that, nothing gets your heart racing like an Explorer, Etrac or Equinox when it gets that high silver warble tone! It's kind of like a CZ when it gets that deep, faint high tone ping (Harrold you know what I mean!).

Actually come to think of it, NasaTom wrote many an article on the intelligence the multi-tones of a CZ or F75 add to the detecting experience.

Besides if I need to turn my detector into a Tesoro, I could simply run it in all metal mode, or run it in monotone mode if I want to run disc.

Must be tough when you come home and find your wife in bed with a Tesoro.

Not you Cal.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2018 02:22PM by doc holiday.

IMHO Tesoro could have saved themselves by listening to their customers. Many of us asked for a tone break machine, low tone under the disc setting, high above. It should not have been that hard to integrate that circuit modification into the Vaquero, Cibola, Mojave and possibly the Tejon.

But they did nothing but continue to produce the same old, same old, until it did them in. But I still have hope that somehow they can restructure and survive. I have used Tesoro's all of the 38 years since Jack started the Company.

excellent point! i have always wondered the same! they could have set the world on fire with just such an offering! it's a little like the lottery!..ya can't win if ya don't play!

(h.h.!)
j.t.

They had the two tone Pantera and Golden Saber II back in the early 1990's. These were Jack's design and worked pretty darn well.

they should have redesigned that feature,and found a way to incorporate it into jack's design for u-max detectors!..oohhh!
my how THAT would have played out!


(h.h.!)
j.t.

The answer is simple....both sons did not have any electronic/engineering knowledge. They were simply born into the business. Remember when Troy had them build HIS machine ? Well, the relationship ended badly and Tesoro gained a design they never had before. It was a very small control head with micro processing. After Troy left, the design was used until their demise.....karma ?

Gee VD - you seem to be accusing Tesoro of theft of intellectual property - namely that they took Troy’s detector design and incorporated key features of it into their machines.

I’m pretty sure you are mistaken. Please have a look at what I have been able to locate on this issue. If you have information which would contradict this, you might consider posting it.

I got curious and did some digging.

Your allegation is curiously similar to what a guy called Willee posted back in 2009...

“Correct me if I am wrong but I understand that the Tesoro u-Max series did not come out till after the Shadow X-2.”

‘The low noise electronic components that made the X-2 perform so well were adopted by Tesoro after Troy proved his idea was correct.
The more expensive low noise components allowed the Shadow X-2 to have more sensitivity, greater depth, better target response, with less ground chatter.
Troy figured this out and contracted Tesoro to make the Shadow X-2 (based on an existing Tesoro model) to HIS specs.
The Shadow X-2 worked so well Tesoro took that idea and come out with a complete new line called u-MAX.
I don't know about Troy, but I would not have been too happy about that but then I don't know the inside information or what kinda deals were made.
I do know that Troy is a smart fella who had a great idea and was responsible for one of the big improvements in metal detector performance.”

He was promptly set straight by JB(MS) who wrote...

‘From Tesoro Electronics—A Historical Perspective on Tesoro's website, link [www.tesoro.com].

Here is a quote from the website (Above) that JB cited.

From Tesoro’s webpage “about” page, written by James Gifford, we have this...

‘In 1996, we upgraded our technology and introduced the µMax series of detectors. To get our electronics into the small housing, we had to work with Surface Mount Technology. Parts so small that human hands cannot place them. They must be placed with a computer-aided robot. These parts were becoming much more abundant as they were used in laptop computers. They also had a much tighter tolerance, which allowed us to increase the depth and sensitivity in the µMax series without increasing the size of the printed circuit board. These detectors included the µMax Bandido, µMax Cutlass, µMax Diablo, and µMax Sidewinder. Also introduced was the Amigo II.”

‘1997 was the beginning of two different projects that have had a significant impact on recent Tesoro history. The first was the forming of another sister company called Industrial Detection Systems or IDS. The second project started when Troy Galloway of Troy Custom Detectors contacted us and asked for a private label detector of his own. Troy is an avid hunter and tried almost every detector on the market looking for what would suit his detecting style. He found that Tesoro products worked best for him. During a trip to England, he tried a Laser B1 and heard about our partnership with Treasure World to produce them. He wanted to try to capture a niche market here in the US and contacted us to help him. Thus the Shadow X2 was born. Other models that were introduced in 1997 were the Lobo SuperTRAQ, the Laser PowerMax, the Bandido II µMax and the Silver Sabre µMax.”

So, is it a FACT that the micromax design predates Troy’s 1997 involvement with Tesoro?

Well, I had a look at the Sidewinder micromax manual - lo and behold - copyright 1995-1996.

[www.tesoro.com]


If that’s not convincing, here’s some stuff Monte posted in 2015 about Troy’s X2 - the machine Troy had built by Tesoro..

‘The Shadow X2 is essentially a Silver Sabre µMAX at a slightly lower operating frequency, uses the same set of search coils, and only needs to have a functional internal Ground Balance setting. I personally prefer the Silver Sabre µMAX because it has the external Threshold control, doesn't have the sometimes not-so-functional Coin Check function”

‘The Shadow X2 is a Tesoro Silver Sabre µMAX with a very simple 'modification' to relocate the external Threshold control to a small trim-pot inside the control housing, usually stuck on the back of the control face. Then, a push-button was added, labeled "Coin Check", and an elongated end-adjust trimmer was added on the back of the control face that was set to just reject the then-newer (in circulation only about ±15 years) US Zinc Cent. Not much difference than "thumbing-the-Disc." control to accomplish the same task and used by those who didn't want to recover targets that were possibly a modern, lower-conductive Zinc. Cent.”

‘it was simply a modified Silver Sabre microMAX, which I personally preferred before the X2's release, and while the X2 worked 'OK' most of the time, I soon learned I preferred the Silver Sabre µMAX”

And to the specific issue of the “very small control head with microprocessing” you say that they got from Troy...

Dave Johnson, Chief Designer at First Texas wrote a very good tribute to Jack Gifford after Jack’s passing (link below) - here’s part of it..he is talking about Jack Gifford here - Dave worked at Tesoro at the time.

“Somewhere about 1990, I'm not sure exactly when, he (he’s referring to Jack) tooled up a plastic housing for a meter. It had circuitry that had to be powered, so the plastic housing had a battery compartment. And since the whole thing was just for a meter, not for an entire metal detector, it was very compact. I don't remember what model it went to. ........One day he got the wild-ass idea of cramming an entire metal detector inside the thing, and the rest is history-- the MicroMax series. This was before surface mount assembly had gotten popular, and hybrid technology was how you shrunk stuff. Thanks to his connections in England, he found a fellow there who was capable of producing hybrid technology PC boards at consumer (not military) costs, and thus for several years Tesoro was the only metal detector company ever to have produced machines using hybrid technology. “

[www.findmall.com]

Having said all that, there was apparently some disagreement between Troy and Tesoro - his later design was built by Fisher. Here’s a post about that from someone who knows - Carl Moreland, now Chief Engineer at First Texas...

The X2 was a slightly modified Tesoro Silver uMax. At some point Troy had a falling out with the Giffords (I've heard both sides of the story) and hired David Johnson to design the X5. Troy got Fisher to be a contract manufacturer for the new Shadows.

[www.treasurenet.com]

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2018 04:36PM by lytle78.

Cal_cobra Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TabZilla Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Tone and visual ID may be great for stabbing cla
> d in a park or cherry picking copper/silver from o
> ld sites but it offers zero benefit if you want go
> ld coins or gold jewelry.
>
> I think having adjustable iron audio is a big bene
> fit. I took a detector to an old adobe site that
> was already well pounded by a plethora of Minelabs
> , Tesoros and even F75s, but I took a detector the
> re that had adjustable iron audio, set it to low s
> o I could still hear iron, but non-iron tones woul


> d be much more pronounced, no discrimination, and
> went right into the iron zone and pulled out a bea
> utiful Phoenix button. That could've easily been
> a gold coin.

You are right Cal. I should have elaborated, low/iron tone is great and
I guess my mind lumps it together with discrimination.

Mostly was thinking along the lines of mid/high versus VCO.
I personally prefer VCO as I feel it gives me more size/depth/shape info

lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gee VD - you seem to be accusing Tesoro of theft o
> f intellectual property - namely that they took Tr
> oy’s detector design and incorporated key features
> of it into their machines.
>
> I’m pretty sure you are mistaken. Please have a lo
> ok at what I have been able to locate on this issu
> e. If you have information which would contradict
> this, you might consider posting it.
>
> I got curious and did some digging.
>
> Your allegation is curiously similar to what a guy
> called Willee posted back in 2009...
>
> “Correct me if I am wrong but I understand that
> the Tesoro u-Max series did not come out till afte
> r the Shadow X-2.”
>
> ‘The low noise electronic components that made the
> X-2 perform so well were adopted by Tesoro after T
> roy proved his idea was correct.
> The more expensive low noise components allowed th
> e Shadow X-2 to have more sensitivity, greater dep
> th, better target response, with less ground chatt
> er.
> Troy figured this out and contracted Tesoro to mak
> e the Shadow X-2 (based on an existing Tesoro mode
> l) to HIS specs.
> The Shadow X-2 worked so well Tesoro took that ide
> a and come out with a complete new line called u-M
> AX.
> I don't know about Troy, but I would not have been
> too happy about that but then I don't know the ins
> ide information or what kinda deals were made.
> I do know that Troy is a smart fella who had a gre
> at idea and was responsible for one of the big imp
> rovements in metal detector performance.”
>
> He was promptly set straight by JB(MS) who wrote..
> .
>
> ‘From Tesoro Electronics—A Historical Perspecti
> ve on Tesoro's website, link [www.tesoro.com]
> /info/about/.
>
> Here is a quote from the website (Above) that JB c
> ited.
>
> From Tesoro’s webpage “about” page, written by Jam
> es Gifford, we have this...
>
> ‘In 1996, we upgraded our technology and introd
> uced the µMax series of detectors. To get our elec
> tronics into the small housing, we had to work wit
> h Surface Mount Technology. Parts so small that hu
> man hands cannot place them. They must be placed w
> ith a computer-aided robot. These parts were becom
> ing much more abundant as they were used in laptop
> computers. They also had a much tighter tolerance,
> which allowed us to increase the depth and sensiti
> vity in the µMax series without increasing the siz
> e of the printed circuit board. These detectors in
> cluded the µMax Bandido, µMax Cutlass, µMax Diablo
> , and µMax Sidewinder. Also introduced was the Ami
> go II.”
>
> ‘1997 was the beginning of two different projects
> that have had a significant impact on recent Tesor
> o history. The first was the forming of another si
> ster company called Industrial Detection Systems o
> r IDS. The second project started when Troy Gallow
> ay of Troy Custom Detectors contacted us and asked
> for a private label detector of his own. Troy is a
> n avid hunter and tried almost every detector on t
> he market looking for what would suit his detectin
> g style. He found that Tesoro products worked best
> for him. During a trip to England, he tried a Lase
> r B1 and heard about our partnership with Treasure
> World to produce them. He wanted to try to capture
> a niche market here in the US and contacted us to
> help him. Thus the Shadow X2 was born. Other model
> s that were introduced in 1997 were the Lobo Super
> TRAQ, the Laser PowerMax, the Bandido II µMax and
> the Silver Sabre µMax.”
>
> So, is it a FACT that the micromax design predates
> Troy’s 1997 involvement with Tesoro?
>
> Well, I had a look at the Sidewinder micromax manu
> al - lo and behold - copyright 1995-1996.
>
> [www.tesoro.com]
> inder/umaxsidewindermanual.html
>
>
> If that’s not convincing, here’s some stuff Monte
> posted in 2015 about Troy’s X2 - the machine Troy
> had built by Tesoro..
>
> ‘The Shadow X2 is essentially a Silver Sabre µM
> AX at a slightly lower operating frequency, uses t
> he same set of search coils, and only needs to hav
> e a functional internal Ground Balance setting. I
> personally prefer the Silver Sabre µMAX because it
> has the external Threshold control, doesn't have t
> he sometimes not-so-functional Coin Check function
> ”
>
> ‘The Shadow X2 is a Tesoro Silver Sabre µMAX with
> a very simple 'modification' to relocate the exter
> nal Threshold control to a small trim-pot inside t
> he control housing, usually stuck on the back of t
> he control face. Then, a push-button was added, la
> beled "Coin Check", and an elongated end-adjust tr
> immer was added on the back of the control face th
> at was set to just reject the then-newer (in circu
> lation only about ±15 years) US Zinc Cent. Not muc
> h difference than "thumbing-the-Disc." control to
> accomplish the same task and used by those who did
> n't want to recover targets that were possibly a m
> odern, lower-conductive Zinc. Cent.”
>
> ‘it was simply a modified Silver Sabre microMAX, w
> hich I personally preferred before the X2's releas
> e, and while the X2 worked 'OK' most of the time,
> I soon learned I preferred the Silver Sabre µMAX”[
> /i]
>
> And to the specific issue of the “very small contr
> ol head with microprocessing” you say that they go
> t from Troy...
>
> Dave Johnson, Chief Designer at First Texas wrote
> a very good tribute to Jack Gifford after Jack’s p
> assing (link below) - here’s part of it..he is tal
> king about Jack Gifford here - Dave worked at Teso
> ro at the time.
>
> “Somewhere about 1990, I'm not sure exactly whe
> n, he (he’s referring to Jack) tooled up a plastic
> housing for a meter. It had circuitry that had to
> be powered, so the plastic housing had a battery c
> ompartment. And since the whole thing was just for
> a meter, not for an entire metal detector, it was
> very compact. I don't remember what model it went
> to. ........One day he got the wild-ass idea of cr
> amming an entire metal detector inside the thing,
> and the rest is history-- the MicroMax series. Thi
> s was before surface mount assembly had gotten pop
> ular, and hybrid technology was how you shrunk stu
> ff. Thanks to his connections in England, he found
> a fellow there who was capable of producing hybrid
> technology PC boards at consumer (not military) co
> sts, and thus for several years Tesoro was the onl
> y metal detector company ever to have produced mac
> hines using hybrid technology. “
>
> [www.findmall.com]
> 1
>
> Having said all that, there was apparently some di
> sagreement between Troy and Tesoro - his later des
> ign was built by Fisher. Here’s a post about that
> from someone who knows - Carl Moreland, now Chief
> Engineer at First Texas...
>
> The X2 was a slightly modified Tesoro Silver uM
> ax. At some point Troy had a falling out with the
> Giffords (I've heard both sides of the story) and
> hired David Johnson to design the X5. Troy got Fis
> her to be a contract manufacturer for the new Shad
> ows.
>
> [www.treasurenet.com]
> oy-custom-detectors-inc.html

If info is a Must---just ask Rick.

Wow, information overload!-----Do you keep all that stuff (info) in your head---or---in your computer Rick?-----Me, I have trouble remembering what color of sox I've got on, that's why I wear just black & brown ones!-------Another question----Is it true there's no gold in Gold Canyon???---Something I always wondered about but was afraid to ask!

Write this down in your book so you won't forget what I said, in a few years down the road a good used Tesoro detector will be selling at a premium.

tabman

Gold Canyon is almost toatally without gold ever since my wife put most of her loot from Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Oman into a deposit box a while back!

We are at the foot of the Superstitions, so Dutchman legends abound. Gold however is limited to a defunct lode gold mine around the other side of Superstition Mountian at Golfield AZ. Next door to it is a active small-scale surface mining setup which I believe still produces gold.

The Troy detector story interested me a while back and I communicated with Dave Johnson about it some time ago. When somebody decided to post something which I was pretty sure was incorrect, I invested a half-hour of my free time to google Troy detectors, then branched off to check some dates of the introduction of various MicroMAX detectors against the 1997 start of Troy’s cooperation with Tesoro.

As a kid, I was fascinated by sort of “alternative history” themes about stuff like the European “discovery” of the Americas. After devouring stuff about the Phonecians, Romans, Viking, Welsh, etc. discovering America I was convinced. Decades later I had learned about cross-checking information from unsympathetic as well as sympathetic sources. Sometimes you can’t ever get to the bottom of what really happened at some point in history, but it’s important to not rely on a single source or a single channel of information. The internet makes it really easy these days if you are willing to dig and to look at both sides of a question.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

tabman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Write this down in your book so you won't forget w
> hat I said, in a few years down the road a good us
> ed Tesoro detector will be selling at a premium.
>
> tabman

You know what Gerald---you may VERY WELL be right on that (and I say that in all seriousness).-----Those little detectors hardly ever break down & they are a blast to use.

Try and find one of the rarer ones, like a Pantera and you will see how hard it is!

I expect some interest in modding them may linger as well. Reg Sniff, for example developed a mod for the original Lobo which made it much more sensitive and fixed the weird discrimination function on that machine.

Plenty of other mods have been developed. I had a Sidewinder and wasn’t happy with the GB. Lo and behold, the manual showed how to adjust the internal trimmer. I told Rusty Henry this and he denied that the manual had that info - he was surprised when he looked it up - He wil be missed. It would be great if he would get active on some forum or other - now that he’s no longer an employee and likely the company is disappearing, he could perhaps be more free to discuss the ins and outs of the detectors.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

Rusty Henry shared a wealth of tips and tricks with me. I found several rings from just one of his tips. Rusty said for me to detect around outdoor drinking fountains because people sometimes rinse their hands and then sling them dry. Their wet fingers and centrifugal force send rings a flying. He's such a super nice guy.

tabman

D&P-OR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> tabman Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Write this down in your book so you won't forget
> w
> > hat I said, in a few years down the road a good
> us
> > ed Tesoro detector will be selling at a premium.
> >
> > tabman
>
> You know what Gerald---you may VERY WELL be right
> on that (and I say that in all seriousness).-----T
> hose little detectors hardly ever break down & the
> y are a blast to use.

why they give 'em a "lifetime warranty!"

(h.h.!)
j.t.

You are right tabman. Right now I am getting funds together to purchase a used Vaquero.

I want a Pantera - no good reason, just do. Maybe because it’s probably the hardest to find.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

jmaryt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> D&P-OR Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > tabman Wrote:
> > ------------------------------------------------
> --
> > -----
> > > Write this down in your book so you won't forg
> et
> > w
> > > hat I said, in a few years down the road a goo
> d
> > us
> > > ed Tesoro detector will be selling at a premiu
> m.
> > >
> > > tabman
> >
> > You know what Gerald---you may VERY WELL be righ
> t
> > on that (and I say that in all seriousness).----
> -T
> > hose little detectors hardly ever break down & t
> he
> > y are a blast to use.
>
> why they give 'em a "lifetime warranty!"
>
> (h.h.!)
> j.t.


Those two words "lifetime warranty" sound good John.-----But----is that in reference to the company, the original owner, or the detector?

Hombre has a Hot Pantera. I like the Big cat decals as they look cool.

Harold,ILL. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hombre has a Hot Pantera. I like the Big cat decal
> s as they look cool.


Hey Hommbray----who's Hombre????------Oh now it's comin to me---tha's my ole pal back in KS!

Harold and Dell

The Pantera that I own will probably outlast me!!!

So why do I need a lifetime warranty? I do have a lifetime warranty by being saved in the healing blood of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior !

I guess there's no point asking Hombre to sell me his Pantera - it's SAVED. that's nice.

So the hunt continues. For me - a Pantera, for others some other detector salvation. to each - his own.

Hombre seems to have chosen well.

P.S. our own each "lifetime warranty" is, by its own terms a "limited warranty"....

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/2018 03:23AM by lytle78.

D&P-OR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jmaryt Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > D&P-OR Wrote:
> > ------------------------------------------------
> --
> > -----
> > > tabman Wrote:
> > > ----------------------------------------------
> --
> > --
> > > -----
> > > > Write this down in your book so you won't fo
> rg
> > et
> > > w
> > > > hat I said, in a few years down the road a g
> oo
> > d
> > > us
> > > > ed Tesoro detector will be selling at a prem
> iu
> > m.
> > > >
> > > > tabman
> > >
> > > You know what Gerald---you may VERY WELL be ri
> gh
> > t
> > > on that (and I say that in all seriousness).--
> --
> > -T
> > > hose little detectors hardly ever break down &
> t
> > he
> > > y are a blast to use.
> >
> > why they give 'em a "lifetime warranty!"
> >
> > (h.h.!)
> > j.t.
>
>
> Those two words "lifetime warranty" sound good Joh
> n.-----But----is that in reference to the company,
> the original owner, or the detector?


apparently isn't in reference to the company,unless they "pull a rabbit out of a hat!"..no !..it's in reference to the detector, because of the initial "build quality". from what i understand,they are still in business repairing detectors,just no longer producing them. the "lifetime warranty' is NOT transferable one,so only the original purchaser can benefit from it.

(h.h.!)
j.t.
j.t.

Parts and supplies may indeed dry up.
Here’s a place with a sale happening.

[www.seriousdetecting.com]

Cal_cobra Wrote:

> It's kind of l like a CZ when it gets that deep, faint high tone ping (Harrold you know what I mean!).

I know what you mean too...love my CZ's.

Agree 1000% on iron audio. It is a major plus and one of the reasons I like hunting with my Vista Gold Gain. Love the audio on that unit. Also the reason why I only hunt in discrimination setting of 0 when hunting with my CZ's in discriminate mode. I know it can get a bit over whelming when I go over spots with a lot of small iron but I want to hear it all and make a dig no dig decision based on the audio. I can't remember the last time I looked at my CZ meter ! I can't anyway...I have my CZ units mounted on straight shafts upside down so it's a pain in the butt regardless.

Glad to see more units being made having the capability of hunting wide open in a 2 tone mode where you can set the iron break point. There are times when you can get into a site and there is an abundance of specific iron targets where you can set a unit up to have those targets hit as a low tone and everything else as a high tone. Being able to dial in and fine tune is really a cool feature.