Aluminum

Guys, you've got to admit aluminum trash is the biggest pain in the rear nowadays as far as metal detecting goes, be it coin or relic hunting. Trash iron with detectors has pretty much been dealt with in today's detectors. But aluminun, nothing in our market has addressed this issue. Can it not be done? Wouldn't it be great if a detector could put aluminum in the same category as iron and responded to it the same with tone and numbers. Just a very short time ago I would not have imagined I could pick up a remote and tell the television what show I want to watch.
Technology in metal detectors has progressed a great deal from when I started back in the day but not a huge amount if you deduct all the bells and whistles. I don't know the difference between a kilohertz and a gigawatt. But I do know I'm sick of digging aluminum. Just asking you guys in the know is this technology at this point out of the loop. Captain Kirk used his flip phone to call Scotty to beam him up. Now his flip phone is obsolete.

no, there is no way possible to separate aluminum from any other metal. Until someone invents an entirely new technology it can't happen.

Sure there is, turn the disc up high enough and presto almost all aluminum is gone.lol

use a "tesoro" play the thumb game and crank up that discriminator,get ya nuthin' but coins at the high end!

(h.h.!)
j.t.

With a Tesoro irregular shaped aluminum such as pull tabs and can slaw have a different sound than a coin. It's more "raspy" or rough sounding than the smooth ramp up and down that a round object has. A flattened aluminum bottle cap will fool you, but if you listen carefully you can tell the difference between your typical aluminum trash and a good target 80% of the time. Pull tabs with the tail still attached can be distinguished from a round target, but if that tail breaks off, and it's the older style pull tab, you get fooled. I dig just as much trash with my MX Sport as I do with my Vaquero. But I would say I find more interesting target with my Vaquero than I do with my MX Sport. At least this is my experience (and why I just can't stop using a Tesoro).

Dan

There are some detectors that can give clues to ‘some’ aluminum. Depth can be a factor sometimes as to how well they give clues.
Minelab Equinox by way of ID behavior and comparing multi freq and single freq ops can do.
Xp Deus by way of tonal quality can do as well.
Takes some practice and a good ear with Deus.
Not failsafe 100% of the time, as are other things when it comes to detecting.

And the notch Tesoro's take it a step farther. I am talking about mega trashy parks of course as would never use notch otherwise. My Golden on wide can notch all tabs old and new and still hit a 14kt. Woman's diamond ring and gold bracket I have. And Yes small foil and an occasional beaver tail will fool it, But it sure cuts down the odds.

Dan B Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> With a Tesoro irregular shaped aluminum such as pu
> ll tabs and can slaw have a different sound than a
> coin. It's more "raspy" or rough sounding than the
> smooth ramp up and down that a round object has. A
> flattened aluminum bottle cap will fool you, but i
> f you listen carefully you can tell the difference
> between your typical aluminum trash and a good tar
> get 80% of the time.


tnsharpshooter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Takes some practice and a good ear with Deus.
> Not failsafe 100% of the time,


Dan & tnsharpshooter, Seems that you guys put stock into the notion that there is a "sound" or "tone" difference that can be learned. Which can put someone in a position to buck the odds. Even with 80% efficiency, or "not quite 100%" etc.... Right ?

Whenever I have heard this claim, I challenge the person : Let's go to the nearest inner city blighted park. We'll turn the claimant loose, and see what his ratio of gold vs aluminum is. And each time: All I hear is the sound of crickets. The claims go silent



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2018 03:10PM by Tom_in_CA.

Harold,ILL. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And the notch Tesoro's take it a step farther. I a
> m talking about mega trashy parks of course as wou
> ld never use notch otherwise. My Golden on wide ca
> n notch all tabs old and new and still hit a 14kt.
> Woman's diamond ring and gold bracket I have. And
> Yes small foil and an occasional beaver tail will
> fool it, But it sure cuts down the odds.

Yes. This is the age old tactic of "notching". Which is not to be confused with supposed learning of sounds, tones, smoothness, raspy-ness, etc..... Yes, it's no secret that commonly recurring junk targets (round tabs, for instance) tend to fall into the same TID # ranges. Thus yes, you can knock out commonly recurring TID zones (small foil, round and square tabs, etc...). And just accept all the other low #'s.

However, the "ring enhancement programs" will indeed cause you to miss some gold rings. And you will indeed dig some junk. ESPECIALLY if you're in a spot where lawn mowers have created can slaw. Then you can kiss notching goodbye

Tom_in_CA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dan B Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > With a Tesoro irregular shaped aluminum such as
> pu
> > ll tabs and can slaw have a different sound than
> a
> > coin. It's more "raspy" or rough sounding than t
> he
> > smooth ramp up and down that a round object has.
> A
> > flattened aluminum bottle cap will fool you, but
> i
> > f you listen carefully you can tell the differen
> ce
> > between your typical aluminum trash and a good t
> ar
> > get 80% of the time.
>
>
> tnsharpshooter Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Takes some practice and a good ear with Deus.
> > Not failsafe 100% of the time,
>
>
> Dan & tnsharpshooter, Seems that you guys put stoc
> k into the notion that there is a "sound" or "tone
> " difference that can be learned. Which can put s
> omeone in a position to buck the odds. Even with
> 80% efficiency, or "not quite 100%" etc.... Rig
> ht ?
>
> Whenever I have heard this claim, I challenge the
> person : Let's go to the nearest inner city bligh
> ted park. We'll turn the claimant loose, and see
> what his ratio of gold vs aluminum is. And each
> time: All I hear is the sound of crickets. The
> claims go silent


Deus nuance is there as far as distinguishing some aluminum from coins. Been there and done that. Not absolute. But in a trashy site definitely better than nothing. I hunt with a bud with F5 fisher. He’ll get a good high readi;g signal and want me to check using Deus. I’ll tell him junk and walk off and go back to detecting. A few minutes later he is quietly sticking his junk away he dug.
I can’t speak about gold coins. Don’t seem to be many in my area it seems.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2018 04:42PM by tnsharpshooter.

this is very true! dan! i was just responding to his question as to how to eliminate it all! (on a tesoro)..yes! as you pointed out,you can discern the "different" responses of various aluminum targets on a "tesoro" at lower discriminate settings.it takes practice and time,but is easily learned.

(h.h.!)
j.t.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2018 05:23PM by jmaryt.

Yes I have heard some say they can take a Tesoro Pantera or Golden Sabre II And disc. it in a way that certain gold rings will have a tone all their own.
Not all rings but ones of a certain size.
But it takes a lot of practice.

Tom, I didn’t mention aluminum versus gold. Irregular shaped aluminum compared to round coin type targets is what I’m talking about. On that topic I would accept your challenge any time. No crickets here. No it’s not 100% effective, but I stand by my 80% claim for tone differences between irregular shaped aluminum and round coin type targets.

Next time you’re in the Windsor/Detroit area lets go hunting.

Dan B Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tom, I didn’t mention aluminum versus gold. Irregu
> lar shaped aluminum compared to round coin type ta
> rgets is what I’m talking about. On that topic I w
> ould accept your challenge any time. No crickets h
> ere. No it’s not 100% effective, but I stand by my
> 80% claim for tone differences between irregular s
> haped aluminum and round coin type targets.
>
> Next time you’re in the Windsor/Detroit area lets
> go hunting.


If the parks were just filled with crumple canslaw, it would be easy. Every round tab, square tab, beaver tail, rivet, and even flat bits of canslaw all read like perfect targets with un-wavering TID/audio response.

silverfiend Wrote:

> If the parks were just filled with crumple canslaw
> , it would be easy. Every round tab, square tab,
> beaver tail, rivet, and even flat bits of canslaw
> all read like perfect targets with un-wavering TID
> /audio response.


"I wouldn't agree!

I've found the "X-Terra's", to be the best at identifying pull tabs & old fashioned ring pulls by far!

Even spent time (a lot of) testing this theory and in the video some evidence can be seen that if the clues and cues are interpreted properly, a good proportion of aluminium can be ID'd. (from 5.32 in)

With X-Terra be on the lookout for TID's 12, 15, 18 = pull tabs and ring pulls.

Experiment in the '99 Tone' mode as well as the 4 Tone mode.

In woodland, where local teenagers go to 'ahem...consume alcohol (illegally) they leave behind a large amount of 'aluminium scrap'
It's in these locations my experiment proved most effective"

[www.youtube.com]

Des, you're simply using notching filters. Just because a certain tab = 18 on the VDI doesnt mean the next 18 isnt a gold ring, or a $10 gold coin, or a trime. The closest to manual alum rejection is the concept refered to above where you ignore "jumpy" targets and dig the "solid" responses in the attempt to remove canslaw and foil wads.

I have a $1000 gold ring (recovered just recently) from a tab choked location. It read exactly like all the other tabs, a solid 15/16 VDI. If there was a way to upload an image here, I'd show my $1000 "pulltab"

jmaryt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> .... ,you can discern th
> e "different" responses of various aluminum target
> s on a "tesoro" at lower discriminate settings.it
> takes practice and time,but is easily learned.
>
> (h.h.!)
> j.t.



J.T.: If this can be "easily learned" with practice, then : Do you know of anyone (perhaps yourself?) that can take this learnable trick, go to a blighted junky urban park, and pass aluminum in favor of gold ? Even if only an 80% odds of not getting fooled ? Heck, even with 50%, or even 30% odds of success !

THERE'S NOT AN MD'R present here, who wouldn't GLADLY dig 2, 5 or 8 aluminum targets, as long as the next one was gold, eh ?

So do tell us: For these people who have learned this "trick" : When they go to junky parks, what is their ratio of gold to aluminum ?? I have a suspicion that if they were led out to a junky urban park, their claims would quickly go silent.


Harold,ILL. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes I have heard some say they can take a Tesoro P
> antera or Golden Sabre II And disc. it in a way th
> at certain gold rings will have a tone all their o
> wn.
> Not all rings but ones of a certain size.
> But it takes a lot of practice.

If you're saying rings of a CERTAIN SIZE, then this sounds like a form of notching. This is NOT the same as "telling aluminum apart from gold (by sounds, tones, smoothness, raspy-ness, etc... )



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2018 04:28PM by Tom_in_CA.

Dan B Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tom, I didn’t mention aluminum versus gold. Irregu
> lar shaped aluminum compared to round coin type ta
> rgets is what I’m talking about. On that topic I w
> ould accept your challenge any time. No crickets h
> ere. No it’s not 100% effective, but I stand by my
> 80% claim for tone differences between irregular s
> haped aluminum and round coin type targets.
>
> Next time you’re in the Windsor/Detroit area lets
> go hunting.

Dan, yes, there is an ability to tell concise equal-sided objects, versus elongated / irregular shaped objects. Granted. But .... praytell .... what good does this do when trying to discern gold vs aluminum ? I mean: Aren't tabs, foil blobs, etc... "round shaped" too ?

PS: By "round" shaped, I assume we don't mean necessarily 360* "round". Ie.: you'd include a ring with a crown as "round". You'd include an aluminum can punch-out tab as "round", even though technically it's slightly oval. You'd include square tab as round (even though it's slightly rectangular), right ?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2018 04:35PM by Tom_in_CA.

silverfiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dan B Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Tom, I didn’t mention aluminum versus gold. Irre
> gu
> > lar shaped aluminum compared to round coin type
> ta
> > rgets is what I’m talking about. On that topic I
> w
> > ould accept your challenge any time. No crickets
> h
> > ere. No it’s not 100% effective, but I stand by
> my
> > 80% claim for tone differences between irregular
> s
> > haped aluminum and round coin type targets.
> >
> > Next time you’re in the Windsor/Detroit area let
> s
> > go hunting.
>
>
> If the parks were just filled with crumple canslaw
> , it would be easy. Every round tab, square tab,
> beaver tail, rivet, and even flat bits of canslaw
> all read like perfect targets with un-wavering TID
> /audio response.

Bingo. Thankyou . Yet there are some md'rs who still maintain that they can .... with practice .... tell the difference .

Here's where I think the explanation lies: It's all in the trick of subconscious memory bias . Ie.: selective memory. It works like this: Everytime we md'rs stoop down to dig a target, we think to ourselves: "This one sounds different". But if it turns out to be junk, we subconsciously say to ourselves: "Yeah, now that I think of it, it *did* sound kind of junky".

But later, when one finally DOES turn out to be a goodie (gold ring or whatever), only THEN do we remember our premonitions. And say to ourselves : "I KNEW IT" (conveniently forgetting all the premonitions that never came true).

It's the same psychology that makes us think our horoscopes come true, or dreams come true, etc.... It's all the trick of subconscious memory bias.

If someone still thinks they can tell aluminum apart from gold (even with a 2 in 10 ratio), then I would LOVE to see a double blind staged test on this individual. But alas, nothing. Or instead of inviting the skeptic to fly across the United states to see it done in person: Why don't they just make a video (with no editing). Of hunting an inner-city blighted park in their area, and showing the viewer the results of gold rings and negligible aluminum ?

Des D Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
....
>
> I've found the "X-Terra's", to be the best at iden
> tifying pull tabs & old fashioned ring pulls by fa
> r!
>
> Even spent time (a lot of) testing this theory an
> d in the video some evidence can be seen that if t
> he clues and cues are interpreted properly, a good
> proportion of aluminium can be ID'd. (from 5.32 in
> )
>

Couple of comments : Your first sentence in your quote above, appears to be nothing more than notching. Not "telling aluminum apart from gold"

BTW: Notching isn't a "bad" thing. It can be useful. But it is not to be confused with telling aluminum apart from gold.

As for your second paragraph above: This is true that irregular shaped objects, or bi-metal objects, do not give the "round" sounds (so-called) that we md'rs refer to. Granted. However: The devil is in the details: There is still a LOT of aluminum junk (and smaller rivets, etc...) that can give a perfectly repeatable "round" consistent sound too. AND THERE'S A LOT OF GOLD ITEMS that are NOT going to "lock on" with a "round" sound. Eg.: a gold chunky bracelet that's wadded up or elongated.... And there are gold rings, with a heavy-sided crown, that WILL INDEED give you a bi-metal sound. Not a "round" sound.

Interesting that at 9:30 in your video, you even confirm that this signal could be "either a pulltab or a gold ring". Thus you too acknowledge that your systems are FAR from "telling aluminum apart from gold", eh ?

To whatever extent all that you are saying improves the odds of passing junk, and digging gold, I can think of parks that I could take you to, where it would still be a recipe in insanity. Not the "80%" efficiency that some people are claiming .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2018 04:57PM by Tom_in_CA.

silverfiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Des, you're simply using notching filters. Just b
> ecause a certain tab = 18 on the VDI doesnt mean t
> he next 18 isnt a gold ring, or a $10 gold coin, o
> r a trime. The closest to manual alum rejection i
> s the concept refered to above where you ignore "j
> umpy" targets and dig the "solid" responses in the
> attempt to remove canslaw and foil wads.
>
> I have a $1000 gold ring (recovered just recently)
> from a tab choked location. It read exactly like
> all the other tabs, a solid 15/16 VDI. If there w
> as a way to upload an image here, I'd show my $100
> 0 "pulltab"

Bingo. Good post. Yet the proponents will tell that there is a learn-able difference between that gold ring and all those junk items. Ok, fine: Let's have them show us this "learn-able" trick in the nearest inner-city blighted park .



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2018 05:02PM by Tom_in_CA.

yes! this can be done! knowing the "tesoro's" audio nuances
makes the tesoro very effective in the "crap"

(h.h.!)
j.t.

jmaryt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> yes! this can be done! knowing the "tesoro's" audi
> o nuances
> makes the tesoro very effective in the "crap"
>
> (h.h.!)
> j.t.

Ok, so if you took that Tesoro skilled user to a park filled with the "crap", then what is the ratio of gold rings vs aluminum going to be by the end of the day ? 5 out of 10 ? 1 out of 100 ? At what point does it become random odds guessing ? At what point does the Tesoro user acknowledge that there is not sound difference between gold and aluminum ?

BTW: for purposes of the above question, I am NOT talking about notching. And I am NOT including the ability to tell elongated irregular shapes. I am talking strictly the claimed ability to tell aluminum apart from gold.

I am also not talking of a machine's ability to give a bi-metal tone. Because go figure: A lot of gold items (a gold ring with a heavy crown, for instance) is going to give that bi-metal tone. So once again, this "bi-metal" trick is not telling gold apart from aluminum either.

Ok, so what are the ratios in a junky blighted park going to be, for this skilled Tesoro user you allude to ?

who said anything about gold rings? you never read that from me! I SAID!..with practice,one can tell aluminum from coins!
I NEVER mentioned gold rings at all!..big difference,(of course)
comparing gold rings to aluminum! in a "junked" park,it's a "fool's errand" trying to tell the difference between gold rings and aluminum,ya gotta have the patience of" job" to even attempt it!..a single tone tesoro (ONCE YOU KNOW WHAT'S IT'S TELLING YOU!"WILL distinguish the difference between a COIN,and aluminum,due to the "slight" differences in audio nuances,BUT this takes a lot of "in the field" experience "learned" over time!

(h.h.!)
j.t.

jmaryt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> who said anything about gold rings? you never read
> that from me! I SAID!..with practice,one can tell
> aluminum from coins!
> I NEVER mentioned gold rings at all!..big differen
> ce,(of course) ....

Ok, then we agree. The thread (I thought) was about aluminum vs gold. So , although I did hear you specifically say "coins", I thought you were also extending the same claim to gold differentiation. Thanx for the clarification.

Sure, it's easy to pass aluminum in favor of coins. So long as we're talking about USA penny/dime & up And even nickels, if someone wants to notch them in. Then sure: I can go all day long in a junky park, and dig only coins (even old ones) with very few aluminum targets.

Déus with the X Y graph is good as figuring out aluminium , and apparently the rutus alter 71 is quite good too check this vid
[www.youtube.com]

That gent has put in the work to assign the tone bins in the Rutus Alter 71 according to his test targets.
Just another cool feature on that machine. Whites V3i can do likewise.
Certainly helps but numbers can be skewed by ground effects, co-located targets, etc, but definitely helpful in cutting down on trash.

youdig Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Déus with the X Y graph is good as figuring out al
> uminium , and apparently the rutus alter 71 is qu
> ite good too check this vid
> [www.youtube.com]


You-dig: You do realize that this Youtube video maker is about 35 yrs. late on this video "news" and "ability", right ?

This has been no secret since the very beginning of TID technology. Starting with the very first TID machine (Teknetics in about 1982). Even back then, persons were writing "ring enhancement programs". In order to knock out the most commonly recurring junk items (round and square tabs, smaller foil wads, etc...). The Rutus Alter has no more ability to do that, than a MYRIAD of other machines of the last few decades. That machine is not the only one with finely tuned 100-point tone & scale ID (left/right axis, graphs and bars, etc....).

At first blush, the person doing the demonstration, shows that a bunch of recurring junk objects get knocked out . WHILE AT THE SAME TIME GETTING AN "ACCEPT" SIGNAL ON A FEW CAREFULLY SELECTED GOLD RINGS ! At first blush, it looks convincing. The newbie thinks he can go out to the nearest blighted park, and pass junk, while effortlessly getting gold right ?


The only thing that guy in the video is doing is NOTCHING. It has nothing to do with telling junk or aluminum part from gold.

While the notching programs are not a BAD thing, yet it's not the same as telling aluminum apart from gold. You will still be one-sorry fellow indeed if you go to a park where lawn mowers have created can slaw. And you will indeed miss a large variety of gold. Especially if that fellow thinks that with his singular gold test item (some sort of lapel pin ) is representative of "gold items". Same with nickels: Only a small percentage of gold rings hit right on nickel. And mind you: Lots of aluminum items fall right on nickel too !

This is no secret that ANYONE can take a table test, of various items, and show that each one has a unique TID signature. But if fails to realize that once you are in the field, gold and aluminum come in INFINITE shapes, sizes, alloys, etc....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2018 10:11PM by Tom_in_CA.

hell no! tom! trying to compare aluminum to gold in a "crapped out" park borders on the ludicrous!..only way is to dig it all for gold! i can't do it,BUT i CAN tell the difference between aluminum,and coins on a TESORO,because i "know" what that little sucker is telling me! sometimes the difference is in "audio modulation" you will experience a nice smooth "round" sound
(to attempt to describe it),at a "slightly" reduced volume.as opposed to a "sharp" 'slightly" "raspy"sound on aluminum.to my ears over time,aluminum almost always hits with a "sharp" sound,and the coin will sound "smoother",and slightly mellower,especially as depth increases.not easy to explain,BUT coins never sound really "sharp" on a single tone tesoro,at least NOT to my ears.

(h.h.!)
j.t.
.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2018 10:36PM by jmaryt.

I think we get it.
No shortcuts to find gold whatever.

When there is a shortcut I am certain we will see it posted here in Bold CAPITAL letters in the title of thread here.
Wishful thinking.