INPUT NEEDED -- Regarding Counter-Weight System for Equinox shafts

Hi all.

Now that I have the prototype shafts built, I've been able to work some more on the counterweight design, and I have moved very close to finalizing the design. I have discovered through this extensive testing/design that the amount of weight needed to achieve proper counterbalance is a bit more than I was originally thinking, after the preliminary, "rough" proof-of-concept testing. I would like to present the findings, and get some opinions -- from anyone who has been potentially interested in the counterbalance system -- as to whether these changes are acceptable, or if this would change your desire to possibly purchase the counterweights.

1. The weight needed to counterbalance the 12" x 15" coil, (based on an "average" lower rod extension length), is roughly 28 oz. This is a fairly substantial amount of weight -- BUT -- I must note that when the weight is applied, the machine swings BEAUTIFULLY. It FEELS lighter, even though the "absolute weight" -- i.e. according to measurement as provided by a scale -- is obviously greater. With my forearm in the arm in the arm cuff, swinging the machine normally, I was literally able to hold the handle of the machine with only my thumb and index finger -- and swing the machine effortlessly! The sensation is that the machine FLOATS across the ground! (For the 11" coil, the amount of counterweight needed is of course slightly less -- roughly 25 oz.)

2. To include this amount of weight in the tube extensions, and yet not have the extensions excessively long, I must use larger-diameter carbon-fiber tube than I planned -- I've decided on 31mm outside diameter tubes. I had intended to use the same diameter of tubing as used on the upper shaft (22.15mm outside diameter), but the extension length required was far too long.

3. Using the 31mm outside diameter tube for the counterweights, I calculate that length of the tube extending beyond the end of the shaft will be 7 1/2" for the 12" x 15" coil, and 6 1/2" for the 11" coil.

4. There would be no changes to the shaft design needed; anyone wanting the counterweight system in the future would still purchase a shaft with the same threaded female fitting installed in the butt end of the shaft, and the same threaded end cap that screws into the butt end. The only changes would be to the counterweights themselves (as comparted to what I had originally planned) -- i.e. larger diameter carbon-fiber tubing, and thus a larger end cap for the ends of the counterweights themselves.

SO, my questions are, with the counterweight lengths needed now a pretty-well "known quantity" -- i.e. 6 1/2" and 7 1/2" long (11" coil and 12" x 15" coil, respectively), and the weights to achieve balance being also a pretty-well "known quantity" -- i.e. 25 oz. and 28 oz., respectively, would those interested in the weights find these specs acceptable? Please offer your comments.

Preliminary pricing info would be as follows. One counterweight, $22.50 plus shipping ($30 total). If an EQX user only wanted to order one weight, I would suggest the 6 1/2" long, 25 oz. weight, designed for the 11" coil; this amount of counterweight still achieves a degree of balance that feels GREAT with the 12" x 15" coil. I am of the opinion that no counterweight is needed, for the 6" coil. Two counterweights, one for the 11" coil and one for the 12" x 15" coil, $42.50 plus shipping ($50 total).

Thoughts?

Steve



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2018 11:20AM by steveg.

This is going to be interesting to see the pros and cons..... from shorten the shaft, use a swingy thingy, to why increase the weight. I use a counter weight.... yep she feels heavier to pick up.... but NOT swing. I use a little less weight but more length......and mine is crude but i want a bit more nose weight for in the water. Mine is quickly removable out of the water. I dont know that you will sell many on the idea Steve, but I like it and want to see what you come up with buddy.

Well I remember the older Bass pro shop fishing rods had a counter balance feature. They did work but the weight difference was huge. 1/4oz -1oz or so. It did make a difference. On the nox adding that much weight would not work for me. However I could see using a lower amount of weight to take some of the load off. I'd make it more adjustable. Like Bass pro shops did , I will take pics of what I'm talking about. That way a person can add what they want .

Dew --

Yes, it WILL be interesting. I am not sure if I will sell a lot of them, or not. I know I would sell a lot more of them, if folks could actually SWING a properly balanced EQX, before deciding to buy... It feels GREAT to have a balanced machine -- to the point that I'm actually shocked at how pleasant the machine is to swing, with the weights attached...and yet, so many are focused (overly so, in my opinion) on the bottom line "weight" number, that I'm not sure I can get the point across to many. Lighter is ONLY better, if the machine is ergonomically correct...

I think my answer to "why increase the weight," would be -- if you like the EQX as is, and the nose-heaviness is not an issue, then yes, "why increase the weight." HOWEVER, if you are among those "bothered" by the nose-heaviness, and IN PARTICUAR, if that nose-heaviness causes you some arm/elbow/shoulder issues, then it's worth considering.

My point of view is, truth be told, 4 pounds or whatever is NOT a lot of weight; it seems like maybe to get that "absolute" weight number down to as low as possible (to compete "on paper" with the Deus, maybe?) Minelab had to ignore some "balance" issues. The only way for them to have addressed the nose-heaviness would have been to add some butt-end weight to the machine, but that would have been "counter" to the "make the machine as light as possible" race, that it would seem is being run right now by the manufacturers...

Steve

basstrackerman -- you make a very good point, in that I could offer a customer whatever weight they desired...there is no reason to HAVE to include the "full" weight needed to achieve "perfect" balance. Even getting, say, 50% of the weight added, would make it feel a whole lot better...

Steve

Yeah, maybe offer a kit with different weights and let the user decide how much is needed for them to feel good.. like me, I'm a retired corrections officer and have had my rotator cuff torn in fights at work. I am also 6'4" with long arms.. for me the total weight hurts, but a balance in between feels better.. kind of like shortening your coil rod to make detector feel more balanced..my long arms are like the coil rod. Too much weight on my already long arms don't work.

basstrackerman -- understood!

I do not know of a way to make them adjustable, and keep them affordable; all the ways I've brainstormed, that might work, are not cost-effective. HOWEVER, as mentioned, it would be EASY for me to custom-build a weight for any customer, at ANY desired weight; even going 1/3 or 1/2 way there to "fully balanced" would still feel better/more balanced than the machine is at present. If someone wanted, say, 1/3 of the weight (roughly 8 ounces) and roughly then 1/3 of the length of counterweight (roughly 2 1/2 inches), that's EASY to do.

Steve

Ive had one on mine since i got it. Steve the only way ML could have done it was to put that battery behind the cuff AGAIN. But that defeated simplicity for repairs. Any machine with an 11" coil without some counter weight is going to be nose heavy. Take the Xca...... CZ you can hip mount both.... and yes then the noise is heavy out of the water. Then look at the CTX..... its a monster...... but honestly is pretty balanced. The answer to this will kind of be like ....... why did ML put a travel shaft on the Nox? All kind of responses to that one.....BUT it was a good idea IMO.... IF you use it as a travel shaft.

Steve the custom made ones would work. I wonder how much weight I would need? Here's a dumb idea.... Use the metal aftermarket are cuff you were talking about and design a weight system on the bottom or sides of that. Like a weight kit that people could ad as much as needed and cover it with a neoprene cover.. I've used zip ties in the past to attach weight to the arm cuff then used a cover and you never really knew it was there. The arm cuff alone could weigh more so alot of the weight could be in the cuff itself. Don't laugh I'm not an engineer.

A balanced shaft is amazing to swing. I have always had one with a chest mounted Sovereign. The effort to hold a coil above the ground for hours takes its toll on muscles and energy levels. A counter balance is applied science at making work easier.


While I can see the point of using Carbon Fiber to present a quality product and a piece to match the entire shaft visually it seems to me that it could be made of plastic or PVC. Carbon Fiber for weight issues? You want weight. Strength? It will never see the stress of swinging.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2018 02:42PM by goodmore.

Dew,

I hear you, and you are EXACTLY correct, with the 11" coil and balance issues. IF you look at the Equinox as a lever and fulcrum, there are only two sources of any appreciable weight, on the Equinox. The HANDLE/CONTROL BOX -- which is AT the fulcrum, so it doesn't count, in our "physics experiment" here, and then the COIL -- at the very far end of the long side of the lever. So, you need SUBSTANTIAL weight -- greater even than the weight of the coil itself -- to properly balance the machine, given that the butt end of the machine is at the SHORT side of the lever...and shorter lever, more weight (force) needed. Hence, needing 675 grams of weight to balance a 524 gram 11" coil... UGH! SURE, the Equinox is "light," from an absolute sense, BUT -- at the expense of proper balance…

And yes, I agree with you; the CTX IS a reasonable-amount-better balanced, than the EQX...

basstrackerman -- I'm not laughing at you, as I'm not an engineer either, even though I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night! (And even though I did start off as an engineer in college, before a slight detour into the sciences). The arm cuff idea is a good idea. The problem is the AMOUNT of weight needed -- which only INCREASES if you move it closer to the "fulcrum" (handle), which you'd be doing to focus it at the arm cuff...

goodmore -- YOU GET IT! You clearly know what I'm talking about, regarding how SUPER a balanced shaft feels, when swinging it. Increasing the Equinox from just under 3 pounds to just over 4 (with counterweight attached) is REALLY NOT an issue. ANY of us can hold 4 pounds in our hand, indefinitely. The vast majority of the issue is the IMBALANCE, and the forces we have to exert with our hand/wrist/arm/elbow/shoulder to COUNTERACT that imbalance, that causes the issue.

And yes, it makes me laugh because I have thought the very same thoughts as you, in terms of how using (lightweight) carbon fiber is NOT helping me, in terms of the need for counterweighting, AND, how using (high-strength) carbon fiber is not assisting me, in an application where high-strength is not necessary!

I almost considered using black steel pipe filled with lead, versus a carbon-fiber tube filled with lead, for the weight advantages of steel vs. carbon fiber. But, in the end, two of the main reasons I did not pursue that route were A.) the aesthetics, as you pointed out; I think a more professional look will be had with ALL carbon fiber; and B.) using steel to help achieve the needed weight, does not help overcome the REAL issue -- which is, convincing folks that ADDING weight to the machine will actually be a HELP, not a HINDRANCE... It's just completely counter-message to everything we've come to fixate on (that being the absolute weight of a machine).

Steve

I have used balanced detectors that were kind of heavy. It helped my elbow but not my shoulder. Ctx was one. The whites detectors with batter box under cuff with 8 AA batteries.. it was over 4 lbs and it did hurt my shoulder. But it did have alot of weight behind the hand grip. I think the elbo is the joint that gets the most benefits from a counter balance.. and if my shoulder wasn't injured and my spine between shoulder blades wasn't injured I'm sure a 6lb detector perfectly balanced would be fine..

I just want to see a coil with less weight that would balance the Nox. I think a 10" x 5" football shaped coil would be a real winner.

Yes a 5x10 coil would be awesome!



James/Texas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I just want to see a coil with less weight that wo
> uld balance the Nox. I think a 10" x 5" football s
> haped coil would be a real winner.

basstrackerman -- I can certainly believe that a shoulder injury, after years as a corrections officer, could CERTAINLY change the equation for you. No doubt about it. In your case, it might be better to apply a LITTLE weight, to improve the balance some, but not so much as to make the machine more difficult for your shoulder to deal with. On the other hand, if the "nose-heaviness" of the Equinox does not bother you much, then you are likely of the camp where counter-weights are not needed at all...and you are better with it just being as light as possible.

James/Texas -- yep, lighter coils are certainly the BEST way to keep the "imbalance" at a minimum. The 6" coil really isn't bad at all, on the EQX, and perhaps a 5x10 would be similar.


Steve

steveg Wrote:

>how SUPER a balanced shaf
> t feels, when swinging it. Increasing the Equinox
> from just under 3 pounds to just over 4 (with coun
> terweight attached) is REALLY NOT an issue. ANY o
> f us can hold 4 pounds in our hand, indefinitely.
> The vast majority of the issue is the IMBALANCE, a
> nd the forces we have to exert with our hand/wrist
> /arm/elbow/shoulder to COUNTERACT that imbalance,
> that causes the issue.


Steve, thank you! I've made this point repeatedly on several of the forums, that balance is as important (or more) than absolute weight when it comes to swinging comfort.

It is the terrible nose-heavy balance of the Equinox that is the reason I no longer use one. The CTX is a pleasure to swing in comparison. I could hunt all day with my CTX but with the Equinox, only after a few hours, my wrist and elbow would be in pain. The Equinox torques your forearm with each swing and puts a repetitive twisting motion on the joints your arm. Also, the top of your wrist ends up sore quick from having to constantly tilt up to "pull" the coil up off the ground. The ergonomics of the Equinox are terrible, especially for a tall guy (I'm 6'4") who needs the rods extended out most of the way.

I also agree with you that the marketing team was after the lowest weight possible to put in their sales literature and apparently the actual ergonomics in use were hardly a consideration. I wish the manufacturers would pay attention to proper balance - it makes all the difference.

I do agree that the weight will help, but I do not want another 8.5" of shaft sticking out I guess.. I'd go 4-5" with a rubber boot over it so it doesn't scratch my truck.. can it be made thicker so it won't be so long? Like PVC as was suggested? Why not a just a piece of PVC big enough to hold 25oz of lead weights that you could just load it with the weight you want depending on coil used then run a long stainless bolt through center into the permanent nut in the end of the shaft.

wayfarer --

YOU GET IT!!! LOL!

As for the actual ergonomics not seemingly important enough to Minelab, when designing this unit -- in a way, I can hardly blame Minelab. All we did for years was scream about how heavy their machines are, so they listen to us -- and put all their focus on giving us a LIGHT one, and then we still complain! LOL! Seriously, though, I really do think that they know -- just as we are discussing -- that "selling" someone on the idea of "yes, our new machine is 1 1/2 pounds heavier than one of our main competor's units (the Deus), but, but, but, balance... yada yada yada…" is about impossible! I think they knew that it's MUCH easier to point to a nice, single number that everyone understands (pounds/ounces) than to have to sell their customers on the physics of fulcrums and class 1 levers, etc...

HOPEFULLY, I can get a few "converts" willing to give the counter-weighted shaft idea a try, and then maybe it will catch on via word-of-mouth.

Who knows, with a properly balanced EQX, maybe even YOU might give one a try, one more time!

Thanks!

Steve

basstrackerman --

If 4" to 5" is a reasonable length for you, I can certainly build you one 4 1/2" long, which would be about 2/3 of the way toward complete balance...about 1 pound would be the weight. And remember, it will unscrew -- and so very easy to attach/detach. Thus, detaching it would be sure it would not scratch your truck!

I can customize it for you, in a way that will satisfy you, I'm sure!

Steve

steveg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> wayfarer --
>
> YOU GET IT!!! LOL!
>
> As for the actual ergonomics not seemingly importa
> nt enough to Minelab, when designing this unit --
> in a way, I can hardly blame Minelab. All we did
> for years was scream about how heavy their machine
> s are, so they listen to us -- and put all their f
> ocus on giving us a LIGHT one, and then we still c
> omplain! LOL! Seriously, though, I really do thi
> nk that they know -- just as we are discussing --
> that "selling" someone on the idea of "yes, our ne
> w machine is 1 1/2 pounds heavier than one of our
> main competor's units (the Deus), but, but, but, b
> alance... yada yada yada…" is about impossible!
> I think they knew that it's MUCH easier to point t
> o a nice, single number that everyone understands
> (pounds/ounces) than to have to sell their custome
> rs on the physics of fulcrums and class 1 levers,
> etc...


Couldn't agree more Steve. Balance doesn't sell as well as the basic numerical weight, especially to internet-only buyers who can't compare models in person in a showroom. Perhaps Minelab was aiming for the first-time detector buyer who had no other basis of comparison and wouldn't know any better once they started using it. I noticed the balance problem right away and could never get past that. Picking up a CTX after using the Equinox was like going from a VW Beetle to a Cadillac, it was so much more comfortable and luxurious in comparison.

I'd be happy to have kept using my Equinox if after a day of swinging it I no longer felt like I needed orthopedic surgery!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2018 05:57PM by wayfarer.

I love the conversation! I suspect most cannot really grasp (pun intended) the subject without having the shaft in hand. My thoughts go to a short length of tubing with an envelope of sturdy material that held sand or shot and served as a steady base for the detector when set down. Production issues not fully thought threw. Still a fan, Steve!

Past(or)Tom
Using a Legend, a Deus 2, an Equinox 800, a Tarsacci MDT 8000, & a few others...
with my beloved, fading Corgi, Sadie

Lead is heavy but in fishing and archery, we have gone to tungsten for a lot of our weight to keep the profile smaller. Hmm...maybe there's finally a use for those worthless tungsten rings we find so many of. Haha.

My system is crude but I used it with the 15" coil the other day and it helped a lot. Mine is not perfect balanced but offset enough that it took a lot of the nose heavy feel to the large coil.

I know a lot of folks prefer the straight shaft over an S rod design. I think much of that depends on other factors besides just the rod shape. Things like control box weight, coil weigh, coil mounting location etc. I like most, prefer to have the detector as light as possible. What I did to my Nox was to change the rod to a "S" design and it swings much better than the stock straight shaft. It eliminated the end of swing torque that is due to, for the most part, the location of the lower rod mounting to coil location. The detector no longer tries to flip or twist each time the coil stops at the end of each swing. With my mod, I only increased the overall weight by less than an ounce while making it swing much, much better and no longer has that front heavy feel.

Pasttom -- very interesting idea! Sort of like a "sand bag" off the butt end of the detector, which would double as a counterweight, and ALSO a detector stand...very creative, and interesting...

Tom Slick -- interesting. There's always been a debate about which is "better" -- straight shaft, or "S" shaft. I don't know the answer. I WILL say, though, that it seems to me that part of the tendency for "twist," or "flop" at the end of a swing with the Equinox has to do with balance issues. The "S" shaft may be a more balanced setup, as your experimenting seems to suggest. BUT -- my point is, with a "properly balanced" straight shaft, I was not noticing ANY tendency for "flip" or "twist" while swinging...leading me to conjecture/surmise that if you get the balance correct, with EITHER type of shaft, you are in good shape. And I TOTALLY agree with you about wanting the detector "as light as possible," but there is a caveat in there, IMO -- which needs added to the end of that sentence...as light as possible -- BUT, not at the expense of balance! I said this the other day, can't recall if it was here, or elsewhere, but to me, detector design should begin by seeking to make the unit AS LIGHT AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE. Then once you've done that, in every area you can, THEN check balance, and begin to adjust things -- moving things around if possible, and adding small amounts of weight, in strategic locations. Obviously, the goal is to add as little weight as possible, but enough to balance the unit. To me, that's the best of both worlds -- as light as it can possibly be, AND YET without sacrificing "balance" entirely...

Daniel TN -- you bring up a VERY interesting subtlety in your last sentence that I'd like to flesh out a bit. I've been discussing some of this a bit indirectly with basstrackerman in this thread, but thinking more about things over the past 12-24 hours, combined with my discussions with him, and then finally when reading your post, and what you said in that last sentence, these things have all helped to crystallize something in my mind that I think is important. To elaborate...

I am a scientist, and a perfectionist. As such, I sometimes get lost in numbers and perfection; you can see it in my first post in this thread, where I stated the numbers (in pounds, ounces, inches, etc.) and then asked how everyone feels with that. HOWEVER -- when I step outside of science and perfection, and think about what you said in your last sentence, it bears some elaboration and repeating.

AND THAT IS TO SAY...

Your machine may not be "perfectly balanced," BUT -- you "adjusted" it with respect to balance, in a way that was sufficient to bring an amount of comfort/improvement that you feel was satisfactory/helpful. AND THAT is an important thing to keep in mind, with my counterweight idea. Just because 25 oz. might be the "numerically/scientifically perfect" balance weight for the 11" coil, DOES NOT MEAN that it MIGHT only take 8 oz., or 10 oz., or 12 oz., for any given person to feel ENOUGH of a balance improvement, such that they would be fully pleased with the resulting new-found comfort when swinging. I suspect -- as basstrackerman is also alluding to in his communications with me -- that while someone may not want the additional weight that a PERFECTLY BALANCED machine would require, NOR do they want an ENTIRELY UNBALANCED 3-pound machine (as is the case now), PERHAPS they would find a "best of both worlds" middle ground with, say, a 3 1/2 pound, "reasonably balanced" machcine…

And so, again stepping outside of my "perfectionist" number- and data-centric mind, I want to stress that I can build a counterweight of ANY CUSTOM WEIGHT that a customer might desire. There are even ways (which I discussed with basstrackerman in private) for me to do 90% of the assembly of the counterweight, but leave the "cap" off the end of the weight, and send 25 or 30 ounces of "loose" lead shot -- and let the CUSTOMER experiment with the ideal weight and balance for THEIR SITUATION. And then, once they find that "goldilocks" amount of weight and balance, they could simply trim the counterweight tube to the size required for their preferred amount of lead shot, glue the end cap on to seal it -- and VOILA! An easy, customized counterweight perfect for EACH INDIVIDUAL and their preferences...

Steve

As I continue to ponder this "adjusted" way of approaching the problem, here's another way to think of it.

I have yet to hear anyone complain about the ergonomics of the EQX, with 6" coil attached. So let me flesh this out a bit. If swinging the 6" coil on the EQX causes you ZERO issues, but swinging the 12" x 15" coil is problematic, then really all that needs to be done in YOUR SPECIFIC situation, is counteract the ADDITIONAL weight that the 12" x 15" coil adds, over the 6" coil. And since the 12" x 15" coil is roughly 50% heavier than the 6" coil (660g vs. 300g), then adding 13 oz. of counterweight, instead of 25 oz., effectively turns the 12" x 15" coil into the 6" coil, in terms of how it feels! YES, the Equinox with the 6" coil is still quite nose-heavy, but FEW if ANY EQX users complain about "pain" or "ergonomic issues" with the 6" coil. SO, if enough counterweight is added to make swinging the 12" x 15" coil feel EXACTLY LIKE swinging the 6" coil (i.e. still "nose heavy," but much LESS so), then is it not true to say that 13 oz. of counterweight is "enough" for many folks?

I think I may need to adjust my approach here some, because the more I think about this, while keeping the "number-and-data-obsessed" side of my brain quieted down a bit and pondering things more pragmatically, I am seeing that FAR LESS WEIGHT in a counter-weight, than what physics might dictate as being "perfect," may be all that is needed for a large majority of EQX users to bring them to a place of satisfaction.

Thoughts?

Steve

Steve..... on the Nox you do have a way to use a counter balance (but you add weight) unlike say the CTX. But.... on the CTX i just grab a bungee hook it to a back belt loop..... over the shoulder... and off i go.

dew -- true. And a harness is another option, of course.

Trying to gauge potential customer interest in the counterweight idea is not easy!

Steve

Last week I swung the 15" coil for 6 hrs with no real issues. I could feel the weight on the end but it didn't bother me enough to hurt. The 11" feels really good.. I know the straight shaft ads more twist compared to S-shafts.. think about this, the deus 11" coil weighs about the same as the nox 11" but do ya hear anyone complain about the weight? Not sure if I have. And the deus 9" coil can be swung for months at a time as it feels like a feather.but the deus is not balanced at all. I think that was what I was getting at, not the full amount of weight, but enough to take some of the weight off.. too bad it didn't have a screw cap ..

<<<<send 25 or 30 ounces of "loose" lead shot -- and let the CUSTOMER experiment with the ideal weight and balance for THEIR SITUATION.>>>>

That’s a great idea. Or anything that might make it possible for the customer to be able to adjust the counterweight to their own taste. Never been a fan of the ‘one size fits all’ idea, or having to buy one that turns out to be too heavy OR too light. Be great to be able to ‘adjust’ it myself until I find a acceptable counterweight that works for me - especially since we change the coil size now and then. And ... if this could be done without adding a lot of length to the back of the shaft as well. Just my .02.

basstrackerman -- yep, as I have thought about it more, I think taking SOME of the weight off, will be plenty, for many EQX users. It's not necessarily that the machine needs to be PERFECTLY balanced, for some folks, it's that there needs to be just enough counter-weight to HELP reduce the weight of the coil (and thus not requiring the user to exert as much "counter-force" with their arm/hand/wrist -- since SOME of that counter-force would be exerted by the counter-weight).

Steve