What makes a machine a great thick iron hunter?

For all you relic hunters, I'd like to here everyone's opinion what would be your dream machine as far as features and requirements for hunting in thick iron for high conductors.

I would have said it was more about the coil size than the detector,some specific detector are better than others,but for me when i hunt in thick iron or trashy sites the the only a small coil will do the job and i mean small in the 4-6'' size,if i suspect that decent targets are around then i will clean the site out of iron with the small coil and then use a slightly bigger one,then rinse and repeat using slightly larger coils.

If you use a stock or larger coil in a iron infested site then 'nulled signals' will be the norm,so for me it would have to be more coil size than the detector,on some of my old roman/saxon sites i use my faithful old T2 and 5'' coil or even my old Tesoro with the 4'' coil,once i happy that alot of the really troublesome iron/trash is out of the way and i want depth but still get in between iron that is deeper than i use a Nexus MP with the 7'' coil on.

Other folks may tackle this type of detecting scenario differently,but for me its all about the coil size.

(((From an engineering standpoint..... we might need to revisit the 100-KHz option.,.,.,.,.,.,.,., with a new technological twist))).

I will be following this one myself.

My tendency is to hunt around a place until I hit iron, then slow down and hunt in the area BUT...I often find myself just skirting the outskirts of it, instead of going headlong into the iron. I have played with a few machines that have the reputation for being great iron unmaskers but still no where near an elite level for hunting in it. I have two such places on my own property like that, in which a machine like the CTX/eTrac or Sovereign will null the entire time the coil is within a foot of the ground.

It also depends to some extent on what kind of iron you are dealing with and what kind of target you are hunting. Here’s an interesting video by Keith Southern illustrating how the Sovereign a machine generally considered to be bad for iron heavy sites can be just the tool under specific circumstances...

[m.youtube.com]

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

For me it is recovery/separation speed and coil size. Hunting with the Deus or Nox I can turn the recovery speed up to help get in between the iron signals better. At some point the iron saturation level beats the current detecting technology and it becomes an impossible situation. That is the point that it becomes necessary to just dig it up and sift through it.

As far as dream machine, probably the XP Deus with a 6in concentric coil with khz range of the elliptical coil.

It needs 3 things, Speed,Speed, and more Speed.

For this situation ("ugly iron")----the Fors Relic with 5" coil is the best I've come across.

For me living in the city, having the EMI stability of the IMPACT and GoldMaxx is a real plus, even when running very high gain hunting in iron sites.

Quite different w the F75 w boost, very difficult to keep from chattering even w sensitivity set at 70%

Aaron

Daniel Tn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I will be following this one myself.
>
> My tendency is to hunt around a place until I hit
> iron, then slow down and hunt in the area BUT...I
> often find myself just skirting the outskirts of i
> t, instead of going headlong into the iron. I hav
> e played with a few machines that have the reputat
> ion for being great iron unmaskers but still no wh
> ere near an elite level for hunting in it. I have
> two such places on my own property like that, in w
> hich a machine like the CTX/eTrac or Sovereign wil
> l null the entire time the coil is within a foot o
> f the ground.

Daniel....Nulling with how much disc? Curious....

My experiences .
Xp Deus with 5x10” elliptical running 28.8 kHz is a real standout. Not perfect. But it’s audio alerting the way it works. It is not necessarily a go -no go. Rather it lest the more/most challenged nonferous bleed through. Like the tone is being pulled into ferrous range. Tuned ear though you will hear.
Audio on Deus is killer in this respect.
I had too much success in too May places when I first got my coil to call it luck. And be,dive it or not hunting in the same places I had been hunting HARD, even places (spots) I would test other model detectors too.
Square nails standing upright in the ground will fool a user though at times.
Maybe calling a place thick iron is somewhat different for folks,
I considered these area ps where I had my success areas with loads of iron.
I may do a youtube in one of these areas so folks can see how different detectors sound while sweeping.

I have had some good success with Impact and small football coil too. Actually I had rather use it for select digging or in a site where digging is limited. I have Anfibio Multi now withnthe same Coil.

I wouldn’t dismiss the CTX or Etrac either with smaller coils. For high conductors only though. User of these, be prepared to go real slow. Not really even sweeping these. More wiggling around on top of the ground. With loads of resweeps to see if any tonal pattern can be discerned. To ID nail false vs actual nonferrous.

Cheers



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2019 06:18PM by tnsharpshooter.

eTrac and CTX will null out with something like the tadpole pattern or extensive nail pattern. Sovereign would do it at its lowest disc setting (not pinpoint mode).

High conductors are much easier to pull from iron than low conductors, you can use 14 KHz machines to pull high conductors pretty easy. Low conductors require higher or multi frequency machines. The machine also has to have fast recovery speed, But I'm going to have to agree with junk and disorderly that coil size is very important.

I love hunting iron laden spots because most people avoid them. My two favorite detectors at the moment for iron are the XP Deus with the 9" HF coil and an old Makro Racer with 7" concentric coil. I know the Equinox is good in iron (and I do have one) but I really don't care for Equinox in heavy iron even with a small coil, the audio just doesn't do it for me. The Deus has the best audio in iron of any machine I've ever owned, it has a way of blending the audio of a good target with iron and makes it easy for me to pick out the good stuff. I just wish they would make a smaller coil as the 5 X 9 isn't much better than the 9" round.

The Makro Racer with either a 5" DD or 7" concentric works the best for me in the real thick stuff. I'm talking bed of nails with nails literally every 2 to 3 inches. The one thing I don't like about the Racer is the overload, I have to cut the gain to 55-60 and swing the coil 2" about the ground in these areas, but boy can it pick out good stuff in the thickest of iron.

What I want is a metal detector that can see through iron. I'm not talking about laying a nail on a coin and being able to pick it up, I'm talking about having a coin 4 inches below a bunch of nails and being able to pick it out.

You have a lot of useful information from responders.

Quote
Junk and Disorderly
I would have said it was more about the coil size than the detector, some specific detector are better than others, but for me when i hunt in thick iron or trashy sites then only a small coil will do the job and i mean small in the 4-6'' size. If i suspect that decent targets are around then i will clean the site out of iron with the small coil and then use a slightly bigger one, then rinse and repeat using slightly larger coils.

If you use a stock or larger coil in a iron infested site then 'nulled signals' will be the norm, so for me it would have to be more coil size than the detector, on some of my old roman/saxon sites i use my faithful old T2 and 5'' coil or even my old Tesoro with the 4'' coil. once i happy that alot of the really troublesome iron/trash is out of the way and i want depth but still get in between iron that is deeper than i use a Nexus MP with the 7'' coil on.

Other folks may tackle this type of detecting scenario differently, but for me its all about the coil size.

Search coil size and coil type can be some of the most important considerations! I have a smaller-size coil mounted on each detector model I use, and a few models have a mid-sized coil, such as a 7" round Concentric or an elliptical 5X9½ DD. I don't have any detector wearing a larger-size coil unless it is a specially application. All of my smaller coils range from 4" Concentric on a Fisher F44 to a 5" DD on a Tek. Omega 8000 and T2+, and 4.7X5.2 DD on a Nokta CoRe and 5" DD on a Nokta Relic, plus 6" Concentric coils on my Tesoro Bandido II µMAX and Silver Sabre µMAX. I've relied on smaller-size coils for 98% of my hunting since about late '72 so why change?

Quote
Daniel Tn
I will be following this one myself.

My tendency is to hunt around a place until I hit iron, then slow down and hunt in the area BUT... I often find myself just skirting the outskirts of it, instead of going headlong into the iron.

I have played with a few machines that have the reputation for being great iron unmaskers but still no where near an elite level for hunting in it. I have two such places on my own property like that, in which a machine like the CTX/eTrac or Sovereign will null the entire time the coil is within a foot of the ground.

For decades I often look for or search for dense iron contaminated sites in good-target potential sites for the same reasons ... others tend to stay away from them. Yes, I search the outskirts of ferrous debris as well but especially since '83 I usually grab the best detector I have on-hand for handling dense iron places, then keep the Discrimination as low as I can tolerate, use a smaller-size coil, and hunt slowly and methodically to pull whatever I can out of the ferrous debris. It is a real challenge. I used to use BBS an FBS models, but also had other devices better suited for when I was hunting nasty iron overloaded places.

Quote
67GTA
For me it is recovery/separation speed and coil size. Hunting with the Deus or Nox I can turn the recovery speed up to help get in between the iron signals better. At some point the iron saturation level beats the current detecting technology and it becomes an impossible situation. That is the point that it becomes necessary to just dig it up and sift through it.

Note how many of us are paying attention to search coil size. That's important, as well as how a particular detector handles all trash, especially rejected or Discriminated trash to be able to recover and provide a fast-recovery after dealing with nearby harsh target rejection.

Quote
D&P-OR
For this situation ("ugly iron")----the Fors Relic with 5" coil is the best I've come across.

And here we had a simple response pointing out one of the two all-time best detectors I have ever used for serious Relic Hunting challenges in dense nails and other ferrous based junk. Naturally I am a bit biased because I own 2 Nokta FORS Relic and 2 Nokta FORS CoRe devices, of which I haven't found any make or model to best them in side-by-side comparisons ... from any manufacturer.

Quote
Abenson
High conductors are much easier to pull from iron than low conductors, you can use 14 KHz machines to pull high conductors pretty easy. Low conductors require higher or multi frequency machines. The machine also has to have fast recovery speed, But I'm going to have to agree with junk and disorderly that coil size is very important.

I love hunting iron laden spots because most people avoid them. My two favorite detectors at the moment for iron are the XP Deus with the 9" HF coil and an old Makro Racer with 7" concentric coil. I know the Equinox is good in iron (and I do have one) but I really don't care for Equinox in heavy iron even with a small coil, the audio just doesn't do it for me. The Deus has the best audio in iron of any machine I've ever owned, it has a way of blending the audio of a good target with iron and makes it easy for me to pick out the good stuff. I just wish they would make a smaller coil as the 5 X 9 isn't much better than the 9" round.

The Makro Racer with either a 5" DD or 7" concentric works the best for me in the real thick stuff. I'm talking bed of nails with nails literally every 2 to 3 inches. The one thing I don't like about the Racer is the overload, I have to cut the gain to 55-60 and swing the coil 2" about the ground in these areas, but boy can it pick out good stuff in the thickest of iron.

What I want is a metal detector that can see through iron. I'm not talking about laying a nail on a coin and being able to pick it up, I'm talking about having a coin 4 inches below a bunch of nails and being able to pick it out.

It can be fun, when you're in the mood, to get real serious and hunt in the terrible iron debris, but with the right detector and search coil ... and if you like the unit and it's performance .... then you can maybe enjoy some success. Like you, I know the Equinox can handle some bad iron conditions, but I just don't like the audio. Same goes for the Deus. I do like the performance of the Racer and Racer 2 in iron plagued sites with an 'OOR' or 5" DD coil, but prefer my CoRe and Relic models. We're all going to have our likes and dislikes but for anyone planning to dive into some really tough iron junk, pick a good, functional detector that is proven to do OK and be sure to affix a smaller-size search coil on the working end.

Monte

Quote

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
(((From an engineering standpoint..... we might need to revisit the 100-KHz option.,.,.,.,.,.,.,., with a new technological twist))).

Count me in on that one -- I'd take a an old 100 kHz Compass type unit updated to a lightweight rugged machine with today's tech built in = what iron?

PS
Maybe Keith still has one laying around he can do a short vid with to show the 100 kHz ability to "see thru" iron like it's not even there,,, got your ears on Keith!?

Keith has wandered off, MRH, I'd like to see that video also. Yo Keith, get on back here.!

Fast signal processing, 3 tone target I.D. and a small to mid size elliptical coil. Works great for me over many years.

MichiganRelicHunter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>

Quote

NASA-Tom Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> (((From an engineering standpoint..... we might ne
> ed to revisit the 100-KHz option.,.,.,.,.,.,.,., w
> ith a new technological twist))).

>
>
> Count me in on that one -- I'd take a an old 100 k
> Hz Compass type unit updated to a lightweight rugg
> ed machine with today's tech built in = what iron?
>
>
> PS
> Maybe Keith still has one laying around he can do
> a short vid with to show the 100 kHz ability to "s
> ee thru" iron like it's not even there,,, got your
> ears on Keith!?

whites 4db 100khz high frequency tr. came out around 1977 outrageous in the iron! ignored it like it didn't exist! great little sniper down to about 4" or 5' fantastic "audio modulation"

(h.h.!)
j.t.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2019 05:50PM by jmaryt.

Daniel Tn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> eTrac and CTX will null out with something like th
> e tadpole pattern or extensive nail pattern. Sove
> reign would do it at its lowest disc setting (not
> pinpoint mode).

Ok thanks! Sounds like a terrible place at best...:-(

I don’t think hunting in thick iron requires a great machine. I live on the Mississippi gulf coast aka the cone of uncertainty or hurricane alley. When I’m out hunting I’m always in iron we have 320 years of habitation and storm debris. Most detectorist cant imagine how much debris a major hurricane can scatter. I go inland to old turn of the century homesteads to hunt the thickest iron to give myself a break from the storm debris. My thoughts on hunting in iron requires a full arsenal of great machines. On can’t fully work a iron littered site down with just one great machine, it takes a truck load.

Blackflag Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don’t think hunting in thick iron requires a gre
> at machine. I live on the Mississippi gulf coast a
> ka the cone of uncertainty or hurricane alley. Wh
> en I’m out hunting I’m always in iron we have 320
> years of habitation and storm debris. Most detecto
> rist cant imagine how much debris a major hurrican
> e can scatter. I go inland to old turn of the cent
> ury homesteads to hunt the thickest iron to give m
> yself a break from the storm debris. My thoughts o
> n hunting in iron requires a full arsenal of great
> machines. On can’t fully work a iron littered site
> down with just one great machine, it takes a truck
> load.

Such as?? Name them (your iron workers) please.

In older sites with thickness iron I use makro/nokta, xp deus. In newer sites loaded with iron that has newer debris I use the equinox 800,fbs ctx or explorer or sovereign with different coil sizes or makro/nokta. The deus is great if you know your in an old site with no modern trash. If a site is deserving it’s going to take a lot of machines to get the goods.

Hi ,as mentioned above it is all about the coil I search in iron all the time, I got many machine in my arsenal but EVEN sometime there is just too much iron to pick up the goodies.So I got to go on my knees(with knee pads/caps and scrape the foreshore with a trowel).


Here is my choice

LOBO 5.75" DD
LOBO 5.75" CONCENTRIC
DEUS HF ELLIPTICAL IN 28KHZ
SILVER SABRE 2 + 4 "COIL
F75 DST 3.5"X6" FISHER CONCENTRIC COIL
GOLMAXX POWER +SNAKE COIL


And still looking for the elusive 4X6 concentric from Tesoro............><




RR

Rivers rat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi ,as mentioned above it is all about the coil I
> search in iron all the time, I got many machine in
> my arsenal but EVEN sometime there is just too muc
> h iron to pick up the goodies.So I got to go on my
> knees(with knee pads/caps and scrape the foreshore
> with a trowel).
>
>
> Here is my choice
>
> LOBO 5.75" DD
> LOBO 5.75" CONCENTRIC
> DEUS HF ELLIPTICAL IN 28KHZ
> SILVER SABRE 2 + 4 "COIL
> F75 DST 3.5"X6" FISHER CONCENTRIC COIL
> GOLMAXX POWER +SNAKE COIL
>
>
> And still looking for the elusive 4X6 concentric f
> rom Tesoro............><
>
>
>
>
> RR

Those are the 'Thames' mud larking tools of the trade,it dont get much trashier than on the Thames foreshore.

texkinzee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fast signal processing, 3 tone target I.D. and a s
> mall to mid size elliptical coil. Works great for
> me over many years.

George,what coil did you get on ORX?

El

n/t

Dan(NM) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For all you relic hunters, I'd like to here every
> one's opinion what would be your dream machine as
> far as features and requirements for hunting in th
> ick iron for high conductors.

High conductors are that tuff in thick iron as there on the opposite ends of the spectrum from Iron..Now Big brass and Big iron are tough to distinguish at times from one another..Like belt plates from Plow points.

But Nails from silver coins like Large cents Quarters Halves dollars etc are able to be seen with Older tech on low freq's quite well and is one of the reasons why there's less of that to find now days.The Dimes and half dimes Injuns Nickles 2 centers etc in nails are more of a choir to get out of iron with lower freqs when the nails are thick.

So what makes a great dissector in iron to get the harder to get items that a basic type GOOD unit's leaves from the past hunts from years ago?

Higher freqs around 19Khz or so..they take better to a faster recovery speed by nature of the freq more hyper and reactive comes to mind..A tight DD coil to isolate targets helps too and offers a bit less bias to say cancel out iron cleanly in disc It makes iron nails etc poppy.

There's different avenues by manufactures to process a Higher freq and tight coil reports. but the two biggest is open gate audio or gated audio.

When its gated it has to stay to that initial report of say iron tone or high tone till it finishes it times report.

When its open it can change on a dime (NO PUN INTENDED LOL) from iron tone to high tone or even blend them together on top of each other sonically.

So now we can have choices...FTP likes to use gated..Mak/Nok likes to use open as does XP and Deeptech etc.I use them as they are the unmasker leaders at the moment in iron using two tones.

Yes two tones especially Iron tone ability is very important to the unmasking effort.It helps size the iron also gauge the quantity of iron and helps to on the open gate units bend the signals instead of a single tone having to come out of a null to report.

I could go on for hours about hunting iron as that's my thing.BUT The main things are the functions we have now are hyper gain,Fast recovery speeds blendabilty and bleedabilty from not as strong filtering of disc circuit.

You have to have a TOOL to work in the iron to go past what's been available in the past and these new tools help.but still a skill level is required that you cant read about and a Effort is required to use the TOOL to benefit..and that at times that is iron removal of thicker spots of iron tones..When the iron gets thick and rapid fire in a GOOD site no machine in the world can do what a shovel can.So say your digging Reb buttons or silver coins in a site but they peter out but the iron grunts are wall to wall non stop..Well you know your just scratching the surface.The iron tone will give you a GAUGE to know where to move some dirt for even more finds!

One other thing I may add is recovery speed and separation are two different things.and in nails a machine that struggles on Recovery speed may do very well or better than a machine with fast recovery ..In nails we need separation and a machine with the right open gate audio type reports can BLEND the separation of targets into a caliope sound..But may not as seem as fast on recovery speed as a gated audio unit at times.

What would I like to see ??A open gated unit with continuous tone for even the soil to report and ability to almost stop the swing and still get a resonation of tone.As I move I hear it all in a slow yet blending report.nails for instance could be a lower tone but not as low as the soil tone if the soil is strong enough to trigger it to audible report..as I approach nail patches etc the low growl grows to bass tone then if a target is intermingled be it a button or silver etc it rises in tone as it crosses the targets..a continuous tone that rises and falls as I go along a continuous wave!Your thinking smooth on CTX but not quiet..I want it to be stereophonic 3D...I want to hear the target is in the toe of the coil Vs the rear of the coil or center etc by the 3D audio imaging in my head.SURROUND SOUND IMAGING!I want to be able to tell theres a say silver dime in nails but know theres nails on top of the dime by the Sonic picture it paints in my head..As the conductance increases I want the tone to rise..even if theres just a glint of solid silver tone in a little bitty spot I want to hear that the edges of the coin although maybe severely masked I can tell its round a and even what size it is sonically..Im talking subtle audio changes and slow motion non stop feed.

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

That “Smooth” audio on the CTX is one crazy creature...something I have to use more this year with the 06 coil I just bought. Would running FAST have a benefit there Keith as the audio is really never shutting down anyway? I’ll have to test it out and get used to it. Smooth and TT should prove to be very interesting...haven’t seen a ton of people using “smooth” as it can be very whacky to listen to, as opposed to separate individual responses that most people are used to!

if it has the name XP deus it will be a great iron hunter