Is Whites the next to go?

I sure hope not as found My first silver with a Whites XLT. Always remember drooling over their detectors in the Treasure magazine ads as far back as the 70s.
Tried to get My parents to buy Me one for Christmas but at the price they were they laughed as always pricey.
Yes I am nostalgic but hate to see a good ole' American made company go away like Tesoro even though Whites is bigger.
It just seems All the same signs are there like no more forums or new top line detectors?

Difficult to say. You have to produce machines to be remembered. New companies seem to be throwing machines out quickly....you can’t keep just addin a bell or whistle every 3 or 4 years. It’s good for the big companies if others don’t produce.... they hold back new versions. Then if a new company emerges.....they have the ability to put some quality machines out quickly....because they already have the R&D done. Competition drives the train......if they can bury in newer machines faster and better you get forgotten about and people just stop buying

There new tdi is doing well

How old is that TDI platform? Is it really "adding" anything if they are just changing the box it comes in?

I would hate to see Whites go under. I have a lot of good memories of my old 6000 DiPro SL. It was "king" in it's day. But just like Tesoro, they WILL fail if they aren't doing the R&D to bring out new real technology. Even that might not be enough. Whites is still holding on to outdated business practices. They need to adopt modern sales and advertising methods and to get on board the social media platforms. Treasure magazines are no longer the driving factor of sales. Yes, I also grew up salivating over the the pretty pictures of the newest models in every issue. But it's 2019. Business must adapt or die.

======================================================

You can see my videos here: [www.youtube.com]
My blog is here: [thesilverfiend.com]

======================================================

Sometimes it’s not how old a machine is.....but how much ahead of its time it was. I mean how many would like to own an aquastar? The TDI is still relevant.

Shrinking budgets, shrinking staff, this doesn’t lead to happy business outcomes.

I have no idea what their next move is, but their last moves weren’t in an encouraging direction. Departure of key staff, the latest being their PR guy. Dropping sponsorship of a major forum. Losing control of their website and all the archives. Heck even Mary Hudson retired!!

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

dewcon4414 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sometimes it’s not how old a machine is.....but ho
> w much ahead of its time it was. I mean how many
> would like to own an aquastar? The TDI is still r
> elevant.


The E-Trac is still relevant too, but if ML hadnt released anything since that, people would be asking the same questions to them too.

======================================================

You can see my videos here: [www.youtube.com]
My blog is here: [thesilverfiend.com]

======================================================

It depends on how bad they are bleeding.
There has to be some blood no doubt.

Tourniquet only works for so long and can be used in just some places.

Rigor Mortis can set in.

We’ll see.
Another eye popping release from Minelab might just do them in.

silverfiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How old is that TDI platform? Is it really "addin
> g" anything if they are just changing the box it c
> omes in?
>
> I would hate to see Whites go under. I have a lot
> of good memories of my old 6000 DiPro SL. It was
> "king" in it's day. But just like Tesoro, they WI
> LL fail if they aren't doing the R&D to bring out
> new real technology. Even that might not be enoug
> h. Whites is still holding on to outdated busines
> s practices. They need to adopt modern sales and
> advertising methods and to get on board the social
> media platforms. Treasure magazines are no longer
> the driving factor of sales. Yes, I also grew up
> salivating over the the pretty pictures of the new
> est models in every issue. But it's 2019. Busine
> ss must adapt or die.

Amen.


Dean

They need to up their game. I love their pinpointer.

goodmore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They need to up their game. I love their pinpointe
> r.


I believe the main guy behind that PP was Carl Moreland...he's since gone from Whites to FT. Pretty sure he was then the main brain behind the F-Pulse/Tek-Point. Others here with more knowledge correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe that you are correct. The FT pinpointer was definitely a Carl Moreland project. The electronic part at least. Mechanical engineering - case design, etc is done by their mechanical department.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

but we are sure they are flat out working on something -

F75 F75+

T2 T2+

Racer Racer2 Gold Racer Kruzer Multi Kruzer Gold Kruzer

Fors CoRe Fors Gold Fors Gold+ Au GoldFinder Impact Anfibio Invenio soon SimplEX


I feel a new box and sticker coming .......

[www.earthscan.co.nz]

So......have we seen the consolidation of more talent into one company..... Fisher? Is that how American companies survive?

Hey RC/ES - how about you buy one of those $10 Invenios and let us know whether you think you got your money’s worth.

NOKTA/Makro has turned more now detectors out faster than any detector maker in history. In the US they managed to sell a fair number of them without setting up a reliable distribution and repair facility. Now after several years they have chosen yet another one. It looks like they have chosen well this time - we’ll see.

I recently used a Multi-Kruzer and found it awkward and that it loved round iron. Short acquaintance, but frankly performance in the field outweighs features. Nokta/Makro makes fine detectors but even their fans have often posted that the rapid pace of introduction of new models only serves to devalue the existing ones in the hands of their customers. Rapid new model introduction is a two edged sword.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Shrinking budgets, shrinking staff, this doesn’t l
> ead to happy business outcomes.
>


this sounds like First Texas...

I’m pretty sure FT’s budgets aren’t shrinking, Mike Scott and Tim Mallory both recently got back from a major round of distributor/ dealer visits in Europe. They laid off 3 or 4 technical people at the end of 2017, but that was at least partially due to sun setting some products - at least one of them was an engineer who made it known he would retire soon so that gave him a “package” to exit early.

In 2017 they also did a major acquisition - getting the Manta project and hiring the development team.

New products - no, not so much, but I’m very sure money isn’t the problem.

Look at Apple - the current model MacPro was introduced in 2913. Apple has more money than any company in the world. In spite of that, they announced 2 years ago that they had development underway on a replacement. Now, 6 years after the current model came out and 2 years after they publically committed to replacing it, the replacement isn’t here.

Good engineering and development take time. A lot of time if you really want to do something new beyond new mechanical bits and throwing in new features to a basically existing platform.

Of course Nokta/Makro keeps amazing the detector world with their pace of new models, but the runaway success of the Equinox shows that sometimes real innovation and aggressive pricing make the real difference.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

No single frequency VLF can compete with the a true Multi-freqency detector....BBS, FBS, or the new Nox. Would be interesting to see what Nokta can further produce. FT needs to expand on the CZ line. Part of competing is having machines priced at south of $1000.

lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey RC/ES - how about you buy one of those $10 Inv
> enios and let us know whether you think you got y
> our money’s worth.
>
> NOKTA/Makro has turned more now detectors out fast
> er than any detector maker in history. In the US
> they managed to sell a fair number of them without
> setting up a reliable distribution and repair faci
> lity. Now after several years they have chosen yet
> another one. It looks like they have chosen well
> this time - we’ll see.
>
> I recently used a Multi-Kruzer and found it awkwar
> d and that it loved round iron. Short acquaintanc
> e, but frankly performance in the field outweighs
> features. Nokta/Makro makes fine detectors but eve
> n their fans have often posted that the rapid pace
> of introduction of new models only serves to deval
> ue the existing ones in the hands of their custome
> rs. Rapid new model introduction is a two edged s
> word.

I seemed to have missed any point that you were making Mr Rick_

Yes my good friend has recently asked me to put him in touch with the Nokta Makro Dealer here to purchase an Invenio - will keep you posted

He already has the JeoHunter of which I have been getting my head around and my hands on -

I have no problems with the speed of the upgrades because of the reason you state. It simply devalues metal detectors that lack the same tech features that Nokta Makro put into their products. Hence you will find the price bottom out on the oppositions dated units as opposed to the more recent units from Nokta Makro -
Perhaps they simply do not mind losing on theirs if it is eliminating their oppositions -

As for performance, I don't think there is much coming out of the USA that even comes close -

What do you think Mr Rick?

[www.earthscan.co.nz]

If you mean close to the Invenio - no, they don’t make $10,000 detectors.

If you mean the rest - yes they are lagging behind. They have only three water resistant general purpose machine - The F11/22/44 series. They also lack the selectable multi frequency machines. As far as actual performance for most general detecting tasks, the T2 and F75 hold their own well. For nugget hunting both the Gold Bug Pro and the Gold Bug 2 are top sellers where it counts - Africa - where there are hard working tools in popular demand.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

they just need to do a under water v3i and do plastic injected battery packs for li ion batt for their older mcachines

lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you mean close to the Invenio - no, they don’t
> make $10,000 detectors.
>
> If you mean the rest - yes they are lagging behind
> . They have only three water resistant general pu
> rpose machine - The F11/22/44 series. They also la
> ck the selectable multi frequency machines. As far
> as actual performance for most general detecting t
> asks, the T2 and F75 hold their own well. For nugg
> et hunting both the Gold Bug Pro and the Gold Bug
> 2 are top sellers where it counts - Africa - where
> there are hard working tools in popular demand.

What a shame - Minelab & Nokta Makro do -someone better up their game then Mr Rick or you implying
their units are not worth the price tag? I am sure you will find those that have purchased and used these 10k
metal detectors to be very satisfied with their purchase - I know I would be ......

Love all the metal detectors that you mentioned Mr Rick, however I think we need an All-Terrain to come from
Teknetics / Fisher - Waterproof T2 with the same capabilities in salt and high mineralization as a Fors CoRe or
similar out of NM and I would be away laughing -

I see you can get a lightweight, Weatherproof, power-on and go menu designed unit for a fraction over the price of
a Pin-pointer $179 - Equipped with powerful 9x5" TurboD coil, Re-chargeable Battery, Quick Recovery Speed -
Yes it is Chinese, but for that price point why would you not have one in the boot, garage, wardrobe, mates place,
girlfriends hand bag etc? -

As they say Mr Rick, one should not sit back and wait if they want to be in the game. All this speculation about "they
must be up to something" is starting to wear holes in the carpet. The metal detector I eluded to, is the very same manufacturer
who was slammed for copyright infringements and they appear to be getting on with it - I would have thought something like that would take the puff
out of their sails so to speak, however they manage to bring something that is IMO is brilliant for anyone entering the hobby, young or old.

Sure First Texas make the best gear in the USA (imo) and i used to love everything about them, still do, but when you
know there is something better out there, what do you do?

[www.earthscan.co.nz]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2019 06:25AM by rustic charm.

You buy what you want.

The success of a company is measured in profits earned. No metal detector company except Minelab (a wholly owned part of Codan) is publically traded, therefore it is the only one which must publicly disclose its results. All the rest are closely held and we have to rely on estimates of annual sales. Sales don’t guarantee profits, but if we assume that the overall profit margin in this narrowly focused industry don’t vary greatly, I have applied the Net Profit after Tax percentage fro Codan (17%) to each of these sales estimates to show estimated profit.

Here are the best estimates I could find online, plus minelab’s 2018 published results - all in millions of USD. Sales first, then “guesstimated” profit


Published sales/published profit
Minelab - $113 - $19

Estimated sales/estimated profits
First Texas - $100 - $17
Garrett - $75 - $13
Whites - $25 - $4
Tesoro - $5 - $0.85 ($850,000)

The net profit is what keeps the wheels turning. I suspect that as you go further down the list, the actual profit as a percentage of sales probably decreases since fixed costs have to be spread over a smaller number of revenue dollars. I expect that the $5,000,000 in sales at Tesoro didn’t cover the cost of 30 employees, utilities, purchases, taxes, etc. The employees alone with benefits social security taxes, etc must have cost well over $1M, perhaps as much as 1.5M. Then there is debt service to consider, we know nothing about their financial structure. The property is owned by a family trust and if the company wasn’t owned by the trust, then rent would have to be paid.

Lurking in the background for both Tesoro, Whites and Garrett are the families. Who owns the businesses? How much cash do the owners extract from the business annually. Garrett may be in a similar situation, Charles Garrett, the founder, passed away in 2015 and is survived by his wife and three children, The premises in garland TX. Is owned by the family trust.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

Hi Mr Rick

You did not answer the question regarding those $10k detectors you eluded to?

So are you saying that those units are over-priced or do not work as they should?

[www.earthscan.co.nz]

Yeah seems their forum info posted is invisible unless you register.

That’s about as good of an idea as that ole quarter in a banana trick video using MX Sport.
White’s needs serious help in the marketing department. Definitely!!

Don’t they teach marketing in Universities in Oregon??

Actually White’s can read right here on this forum and get their “Marketing degree”. Lol
Don’t cost much either.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2019 09:29PM by tnsharpshooter.

$10K is a reasonable price for a tool which delivers a “job done” which is more than $10k and the time spent using it. My point is that nobody else reputable makes a comparable machine (for better or worse) and without any credible testimony as to the value PRODUCED by the device, it seems like a lot of money to spend on a “shot in the dark”.

When careful and respected users give reports on how it works, what things it does which can’t be done with a detector costing a tenth as much or less and how those additional capabilities produce value exceeding the purchase price and effort of use - then I will perhaps understand why a cumbersome two-part device (only one part of which is usable while hunting if you are alone) which sells for $10,000 is a good value.

Since you like to ask questions, I’ll ask you one.

The Jeohunter which you are apparently using lists at $3400. What has it done for you or your friend which a CTX, Equinox, Deus can’t do. When I say DONE - I mean achieved in terms of actual recovery of object so a value which can rapidly yield a return greater than the detector’s cost.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold