GPX in heavy iron?

I’ve been hunting a good site using the Deus and Equinox which has nails and small iron mixed in with good targets, some good targets being deep, but near or in the iron. My question is, will a GPX with Iron Discrimination turned up and the smallest DD coil pull out the deeper, non-ferrous items amongst heavy iron? Has anyone had any experience with this? I think for shallow targets the Equinox or Deus works better for shallow targets in this “machine gun iron”, but would like to see what others may have insight on for using the GPX. I’m assuming the fast setting and special soil timing may need to be adjusted as well. Thank you in advance.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2019 12:15PM by reddirtdigger.

Where's DanielTn. This is his forte. This is all he does. And...…. you don't want the GPZ; rather, you want the GPX.
There's limited "depth with ID" on the GPX; yet, this can be taken advantage...… to some extent.

The Mighty Daniel left the building I thought?

Harold,ILL. Wrote:
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> The Mighty Daniel left the building I thought?


I thought he mentioned he was going to keep the GPX though.

Yep, that’s what he said, he’s holding on to it.

He’s still been checking in here and there, working like 80 hours a week remember?

Aaron

TARSACCI - “Digging deeper, BEHIND the competition!”
[forums.tarsaccisales.com]

Aaron Wrote:
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> Yep, that’s what he said, he’s holding on to it.
>
> He’s still been checking in here and there, workin
> g like 80 hours a week remember?
>
> Aaron


Confucius say---He who work many hours kills himself (something like that). -----Another old saying----Hard work never hurt anyone.-----Take your pick which one you wanna dance with!

I think there's a guy up in Virginia over on My treasure spot that actually does what you want to do in iron with a GPX and small coil..And I've seen the jaw dropping finds to prove it.

Like house site hunting.I've seen him state he can hunt iron as well as any VLF in iron..

You may want to check over there..

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

Thanks!

I think He goes By Earl K.

Guy digs stuff that will make your mouth water.

Hes a big Time GPX user.

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

Keith Southern Wrote:
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> I think He goes By Earl K.
>
> Guy digs stuff that will make your mouth water.
>
> Hes a big Time GPX user.
>
> Keith


Thanks...found him and sent him a PM also. I really appreciate all the help

Ahh ok !!

Your most welcome!

You'll have to share what you have found and what you find!!Id love to see it.If its doable??That is if you ca.I know if your on a good site and digging stuff alot of times its not wise to show your finds to prying eyes!Been there done that LOL!!



Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2019 09:52PM by Keith Southern.

From what I've heard, .... having talked to many nugget hunters here in CA sierra foothills: The iron-disc. knob feature is only good for the top 4 or 5", max. So if you want to avail yourself of the "fabled depth" of the GPX, you will lack iron disc. at those deeper depths. I don't see what going to a smaller coil will afford you, as far as overcoming that hurdle. Seems like you'd merely have the same thing, except in different proportions. If .... by going to a smaller coil, you end up with depth that's commensurate with a standard discriminating machine, then .... what have you gained ? Why not just use the standard machine and have zero guessing games about nails ?

I saw a few guys with GPX's at the VA relic rally late last year. They could ... no doubt .... effortlessly get a coin to 1.5 ft. deep ! But you never saw them anywhere near any of the cellar hole type sites (solid blankets of nails and iron).

Yes it can be done I run my GPX in iron all the time. You have to go real slow and use small coils. I have a 8 by 12 and a 5 by 10 DD just for thick iron. You must approach from multiple directions and overlap each sweep. Helps to just turn the iron disc off as well then you don't have to deal with the blanking issue, recovers faster off. You should have got everything down to 5 inches with the VLF anyway. It can drive you muts scrutinizing each signal but it's worth it. I've found some amazing stuff. What you'll find is the low conductors the VLF can pull from the iron like small pewter and cuff buttons, p caps, small round balls and small gold coins.

Andrew...….. THAT'S good data!

A few more things. You want to ignore all low tones and dig just the high tones, unless you get a deeper smooth low tone. But 99% of the time your low tone is going to be iron. I like to run sensitive extra in iron, gain at about 5 and if I run any disc is usually very low like 4-5, just enough to make nails sound bad but not blank out. All my other settings are the same for other sites. You will dig iron no getting around it. And if you have a lot of flat tin at the site forget it, you'll dig it all, it sounds good. Military sites where you're just dealing with nails and an occasional piece of tin or bigger chuck of iron is where you can use a GPX. If you have lots of flat tin, bottle caps, and other more modern trash you're better off with a VLF.

You will be amazed at the stuff you miss with a VLF in these particular sites. Just this spring I found a trashy site that I pulled a j hook, 2 coat buttons, dropped 58's and some kepi, small pewter and cuff buttons. Went back over it with the GPX real slow and dug 9 more cuff buttons, many p caps, 5 small pewters, and many round balls I had missed with Deus, Equinox and Tarsacci because they were too deep. In some cases I had a nail and a good target in the dirt pile. Now that could have a coincidence but the signal just sounded too good to be a nail. In most cases these targets were 9 inches or less, but for whatever reason the VLF just couldn't get them even though they should have been in range. I think the GPX can see past the rust flakes and small bits where the VLF is blinded by them IMO.

Abenson Wrote:
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> A few more things. You want to ignore all low tone
> s and dig just the high tones, unless you get a de
> eper smooth low tone. But 99% of the time your low
> tone is going to be iron. I like to run sensitive
> extra in iron, gain at about 5 and if I run any di
> sc is usually very low like 4-5, just enough to ma
> ke nails sound bad but not blank out. All my other
> settings are the same for other sites. You will di
> g iron no getting around it. And if you have a lot
> of flat tin at the site forget it, you'll dig it a
> ll, it sounds good. Military sites where you're ju
> st dealing with nails and an occasional piece of t
> in or bigger chuck of iron is where you can use a
> GPX. If you have lots of flat tin, bottle caps, an
> d other more modern trash you're better off with a
> VLF.
>
> You will be amazed at the stuff you miss with a VL
> F in these particular sites. Just this spring I fo
> und a trashy site that I pulled a j hook, 2 coat b
> uttons, dropped 58's and some kepi, small pewter a
> nd cuff buttons. Went back over it with the GPX re
> al slow and dug 9 more cuff buttons, many p caps,
> 5 small pewters, and many round balls I had missed
> with Deus, Equinox and Tarsacci because they were
> too deep. In some cases I had a nail and a good ta
> rget in the dirt pile. Now that could have a coinc
> idence but the signal just sounded too good to be
> a nail. In most cases these targets were 9 inches
> or less, but for whatever reason the VLF just coul
> dn't get them even though they should have been in
> range. I think the GPX can see past the rust flake
> s and small bits where the VLF is blinded by them
> IMO.

Thanks for the suggestions. What coil do you use in such places? I have a 15” spiral all te way down to a 5x9 dd and a round 8” dd

Abenson Wrote:
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> Yes it can be done I run my GPX in iron all the ti
> me. You have to go real slow and use small coils.
>

Would it be fair to say, if you go to a smaller coil, that you loose depth. Right ? This is par-for-course of moving to smaller coils, after all. right ?

Ok then, if you're now down to 8 or 9" on coin sized objects, then : What have you gained, depth-wise, over standard coin-machines ? If the depth becomes the same on 1) coin sized targets, and 2) ability to tell iron-apart from conductors) ), then : What have you gained ? Why not simply use the coin-machine ?

And the "real slow" comment (totally understood) conjurs up images of "triple checking and 2nd-guessing every-single-target. Eg. criss-crossing multiple-ways, evaluating, and digging a bunch "just to make sure". At the end of the day: Doesn't it come to the point (@ the Las Vegas odds) that your time might be better spent with a standard machine ?

Abenson Wrote:
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> You will be amazed at the stuff you miss with a VLF in these particular site

Well, yes. And so-too could the same thing be said of about anywhere (junky parks for gold, etc...). But at the end of the day, the rewards versus the punishment (eg.: strip-mining vs selective) comes into play. Right ?

I mean, the same thing could be said of risk-of-missing earing studs and tinsel thin chains @ junky parks. But .... heaven-help the person who goes into the average junky blighted park employing a strip-mine operation.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2019 03:14PM by Tom_in_CA.

The guy who posted about "Low tones & High tones", is incorrect.
There is just one tone from GPX detectors UNLESS you get a complete blank / discrimination dip sound you can "equate" to be an equivalent Low sound.

To repeat, GPX detectors produce just a single tone on all metals including iron to foil to lead to brass to bronze to good to copper to silver.

You will want the proverbial 'Patience of Job', to use these machines in iron infested areas period.

Des D
Ex Minelab product development tester

GPX doesn't have high and low tones? Having used one for 1000's of hours I beg to differ. Unless you set it up to have a mono tone factory preset it low for high conductors and high for low conductors. Low-high or high-low signal raises and falls or falls and then raises.

Des D Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> To repeat, GPX detectors produce just a single ton
> e on all metals including iron to foil to lead to
> brass to bronze to good to copper to silver.
>

Well, there *is* a disc. knob. But .... correct me if I'm wrong, but: That is only effective to the top 4 " or so, right ?

And I realize that some people will say "that's better than nothing". Ie.: thinking they can *still* avail themselves of the "fabled depth". But the reality is: Once they get into an iron-infested zone, and spend their entire day digging a bunch of whisper (read: "nails") to avail themselves of the fabled depth, is the day they go psycho.

I have even seen persons who ... in their quest for the "utmost depth at all costs" will say they have "no problem digging all the iron". Those are always "famous last words". :/

Abenson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> GPX doesn't have high and low tones? Having used o
> ne for 1000's of hours I beg to differ. Unless you
> set it up to have a mono tone factory preset it lo
> w for high conductors and high for low conductors.
> Low-high or high-low signal raises and falls or fa
> lls and then raises.

Uhhh, but any ability to tell "highs versus lows" and/or "iron vs conductive", is only effective for the top 4" or 5" of the depth. Right ? Beyond that: Everything sounds the same. Right ?

Here’s a quote from Steve Herschbach on his forum a couple of years ago...

“Not much said here about the tones. You are familiar with the Infinium and ATX dual tone scheme Paul. A hi-lo or lo-hi tone is generated based on the targets relation to the ground balance setting. The Minelab PI detectors employ the same dual tone system. The tones work to full target depth unlike the discrimination feature, which only works at shallow depths.

Going by dual tones only you break targets down into two categories. Low conductive and small ferrous make a hi-lo tone. High conductive and large ferrous make a lo-hi tone.

The tones when combined with the shallow iron blanking system make for a much better discrimination scheme that a person might think as time and accumulated targets train the ear. Of course it is never fool proof”

[www.detectorprospector.com]

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2019 07:39PM by lytle78.

Thanks Rick. Hard to explain a PI to someone whose never used or used one very little. If you use one for any length of time you get very good and at distinguishing the audio and knowing what to dig and what to leave behind.

A PI is just another tool. I'm not saying people should March into a park or a trash infested ghost town and use one. That's insanity. I'm telling you what works for me and how I use one which is hunting pre-1890 military forts and camps and the beach. If I'm finding good stuff I'll mop up what's left with a PI. which has proven to be quit a bit. And yes they do pretty good in iron with the right settings and coils. Scares some people to use a PI because they're worried they're going to dig trash. Takes some extra time but I've learned to love detecting enough that I'm happy digging a square nail, a button, a ring or a coin.

Interesting thread.
I ran a GPX some. A 4500 model.
The detector had a switch to actually invert the sound, meaning seems one way a lower conductor sounded off with higher tone with the tone transitioning to lower tone, flip the switch to invert and the same lower conductor would sound off with lower tone transitions to higher tone. Think this switch was put on so a user of GPX could be made to follow suit with how a VLF detector would sound off (based on conductivity level of target) meaning lower conductor sounding off low first then high, and higher conductor high first then low second.

Using the nail blanking didn’t seem to change how the detector sounded off on objects. Didn’t want to use too much iron blanking as it would affect depth somewhat. Granted actual reporting of targets, I agree using nail blanking would slow down reporting of detector.

There have been post too here about TDI, and running a manipulated GB and use the switch to make lower conductors and higher conductors sound off high or low. And a depth disadvantage using GB manipulation take place.

It has also been said here on this forum in some older threads. PI detectors are far less harder to fool with blinding from things like rust. Don’t even take harsh (higher mineral ground) to indeed realize PI advantage scope VLF detector.

Cheers.

Myself, I don’t have the patience it takes to use PI in such environment as is asked about here.
See this link GPX 4500 users manual pages 68-74.
[www.minelab.com]



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2019 12:32AM by tnsharpshooter.

tnsharpshooter Wrote:
--------------------------------------------------
>
> Myself, I don’t have the patience it takes to use
> PI in such environment as is asked about here.
> See this link GPX 4500 users manual pages 68-74.
> [www.minelab.com]
> .1%20Instruction%20Manual%20GPX-4500_screen.pdf


By the time someone is done "employing all the tricks" (to try to tell highs vs lows vs iron), is the moment they'll be left with nothing more than they could have gotten with lesser headaches on a standard machine.

If someone has been able to use the GPX for relic or coin hunting, my suspicion is that they're using it for wide-open fields, or beach type hunting. Not the normal cellar holes, ghost towns, and parks type hunting.

For example: There was a fellow with a TDI on a beach here, that ... yes... with "tricks", could figure highs vs lows vs iron. But once the eroded beach resembled "ghost town conditions" (lots of iron) and no shortage of conductors to choose from: This poor guy was going psycho. A few weeks later, we saw him sporting an Etrac. Doh !

The GPX or infact any other high end PI machines is in my opinion not the right too for that specific job,in the right situation when the ground or site is reasonably clear from iron then without doubt it then is the right tool for the job,the iron rejection on the GPX and the TDI target conductivity facilities do work of a fashion and give the operator a basic rudimentary indication that it is iron but is not 100% accurate by any means,but on a clean site then what iron is in the ground will give you a basic indication but in the case of the GPX is not all that great and not the full depth of what the detector is capable of,the TDI Pro of which i own and use is fine but you do loose depth when using the target conductivity,the main use for these high end PI machines and when the excel is in high mineral content soil conditions and also extreme depth in clean iron free ground.That is when they are the right tool for the job.

In a situation that the opening poster has mentioned then in my personal opinion a VLF is the right tool for the job and also with the right size coil as well ie smaller the better,i personally use for these types of sites the Nexus MP with the small 8x6 coil on,not only does this small coil give you far superior target separation and being a VLF it does have full discrimination which is what you are after,but the beauty of using this specific Nexus is that they do work well in high mineral content sites and also they have the power of what i call a laser beam signal that can get down in between the iron and locate the possibility of those decent desirable targets.......of course we can only use what is currently available on the market and also the capabilities of current VLF/PI technology.

I can only mention what i use for my sometimes trashy roman/saxon sites and how i use some of my detector,for heavy iron infested sites you have too use different techniques to say clean open pasture sites,and in my opinion use a high end PI machines like the GPX/TDI or any other high end PI machine is not the right tool for the job.

I still reckon one of my favourite detector/coil combinations for sites with lots of iron is the T2 with the 5'' coil on,you can increase the sensitivity and it will give you some amazing depth so that you can have at least some chance of 'plucking' out those deeper desirable targets.

Junk and Disorderly Wrote:
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> .... when the ground or si
> te is reasonably clear from iron .....

which is not-the-case for most relicky sites

This is from a relic hunters perspective as I don't target coins but I used a GPX exclusively for a year and a half on a lot of Civil War sites and there have only been 2 places I just couldn't run it altogether due to iron but those 2 sites were challenging for any VLF. I've tried a variety of coils but found I could id targets best with the factory 11" dd and still have good depth. I don't recommend it for cellar holes or areas with high modern trash but I've had good luck even in those environments. Like getting an ear for an instrument I got really good at ID'ing with the GPX and would compare tones with VLF's. Modern trash will nearly blow your ears off and not even a civil war buckle will do that. I cross cross and pump targets and dig a lot anyway because civil war iron is sometimes a neat relic but I know its iron. Rounded iron like canister shot or say a nipple protector will sound good but still not just right. I now run a Deus HF coil and Equinox 800 over the same ground which I usually grid off. I cherry pick with the VLFs and vacuum with the GPX. Different tools for different situations but I discriminate very well with the GPX after digging thousands of holes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2019 02:57PM by Soky72.

I have a minute or two of free time so I will chime in here while I can. Only had to work 60 hrs this week.

My question to the OP is, are we talking everyday normal soil conditions or are we referring to heavily mineralized red dirt?

That makes a big difference.

If in normal, low to mild mineral, then I would agree with the others that you are probably punishing yourself trying to use a GPX in the heavy iron spots.

If in the red dirt, then that changes the ball game considerably because the VLF machines are are already being brought down to their knees by the soil itself. Some of the best VLF machines on the market can only achieve 3 to 4 inches of depth MAX in soil like that. So to put it blunt, it kinda renders them useless. There are a few VLFs that can sorta do OK in soil like that, but don't expect no tight ID numbers or tones.

My opinion for what it's worth...if hunting in red dirt and in heavy iron, I have yet to find a detector that can do both to a top notch degree. It becomes sort of a pick one or the other type thing. You CAN sort of make a GPX work in it, but you are still going to leave more in the ground than what you dig. I don't think there is a detector on the market yet that can do both efficiently. That's just my opinion. I've spent thousands of dollars trying to find it. One of the best machines I've used to date that can cope with the bad soil and work pretty decent in heavy iron....don't laugh, but it is the Blisstool. I have hopes that the Fisher discriminating PI land machine will maybe fill this void and open up a whole new world.

As for the GPX itself and tones. I hear two tones as well and not just single or mono tone. Most any video on YouTube will demonstrate this if you listen close. My buddy and I both have GPX 4800s. When he first got his, I couldn't accompany him but sent him to the bullet fields to go get a feel for his unit. I told him my settings and off he went. He didn't find a single minie ball. He got some shotgun shells and some small modern bullets though. He texts me while he is hunting to ask me what they sounded like and I'd tell him they come in with a low tone...if they are shallow they will have a high tone tail end after the low tone. He didn't find a one. A little while later we went back down to the site together and I located one and called him over. He ran his machine over it and says "Oh I have heard a lot of those...but I thought you said they were a low tone? That's a high tone". He let me listen...sure enough...high tone. I knew then what had happened...went into his settings and he had Inverted the tones. So bullets on his machine were giving a high tone....and the stuff that normally gives a high tone, was giving him the bullet low tone.

For the effective depth of the iron discrimination part...I have found this actually varies quite a bit in your overall settings AND coil used. I ditched the stock Commander coils and bought all DeTech coils for my GPX. I found a new site back in the spring while hunting with the 15 inch Spiral DD coil and it had a little more iron mixed in with the site than what I liked. I could hear the iron and know it was iron. Didn't dig a single nail or anything with the 15 inch coil. On a return visit, I opted to put the 11 inch DD coil on there because I have to use a harness system with the 15 inch due to the weight. I wanted to be as light as I could, because it had started getting into the 80s in the temps and that harness is hot. I got to my little spot and started rehunting in the iron. I bet I dug 50 nails in the first 2 hours of hunting. They all sounded like deep bullets to me. I went back to the truck and put the 15 inch coil on. I didn't dig a single nail the rest of the day and all I found were bullets, camp lead, buttons, j hooks, etc. All good stuff except the occasional shotgun shell. So coil size and how it is wound does impact the iron disc range and sound nuances. I have since bought a new DeTech 11 inch coil to replace the 11 inch Commander. I've yet to find time to use it but my hope is that it has the same effect as its big 15 inch brother on the sounds, and will help me get away from that harness.

THANKS for chiming in Daniel. I know your work schedule is excessive.