GPX in heavy iron?

Daniel Tn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have a minute or two of free time so I will chim
> e in here while I can. Only had to work 60 hrs thi
> s week.
>
> My question to the OP is, are we talking everyday
> normal soil conditions or are we referring to heav
> ily mineralized red dirt?
>
> That makes a big difference.
>
> If in normal, low to mild mineral, then I would ag
> ree with the others that you are probably punishin
> g yourself trying to use a GPX in the heavy iron s
> pots.
>
> If in the red dirt, then that changes the ball gam
> e considerably because the VLF machines are are al
> ready being brought down to their knees by the soi
> l itself. Some of the best VLF machines on the ma
> rket can only achieve 3 to 4 inches of depth MAX i
> n soil like that. So to put it blunt, it kinda re
> nders them useless. There are a few VLFs that can
> sorta do OK in soil like that, but don't expect no
> tight ID numbers or tones.
>
> My opinion for what it's worth...if hunting in red
> dirt and in heavy iron, I have yet to find a detec
> tor that can do both to a top notch degree. It be
> comes sort of a pick one or the other type thing.
> You CAN sort of make a GPX work in it, but you are
> still going to leave more in the ground than what
> you dig. I don't think there is a detector on the
> market yet that can do both efficiently. That's j
> ust my opinion. I've spent thousands of dollars t
> rying to find it. One of the best machines I've u
> sed to date that can cope with the bad soil and wo
> rk pretty decent in heavy iron....don't laugh, but
> it is the Blisstool. I have hopes that the Fisher
> discriminating PI land machine will maybe fill thi
> s void and open up a whole new world.
>
> As for the GPX itself and tones. I hear two tones
> as well and not just single or mono tone. Most an
> y video on YouTube will demonstrate this if you li
> sten close. My buddy and I both have GPX 4800s.
> When he first got his, I couldn't accompany him bu
> t sent him to the bullet fields to go get a feel f
> or his unit. I told him my settings and off he we
> nt. He didn't find a single minie ball. He got so
> me shotgun shells and some small modern bullets th
> ough. He texts me while he is hunting to ask me wh
> at they sounded like and I'd tell him they come in
> with a low tone...if they are shallow they will ha
> ve a high tone tail end after the low tone. He di
> dn't find a one. A little while later we went bac
> k down to the site together and I located one and
> called him over. He ran his machine over it and sa
> ys "Oh I have heard a lot of those...but I thought
> you said they were a low tone? That's a high tone
> ". He let me listen...sure enough...high tone. I
> knew then what had happened...went into his settin
> gs and he had Inverted the tones. So bullets on hi
> s machine were giving a high tone....and the stuff
> that normally gives a high tone, was giving him th
> e bullet low tone.
>
> For the effective depth of the iron discrimination
> part...I have found this actually varies quite a b
> it in your overall settings AND coil used. I ditc
> hed the stock Commander coils and bought all DeTec
> h coils for my GPX. I found a new site back in th
> e spring while hunting with the 15 inch Spiral DD
> coil and it had a little more iron mixed in with t
> he site than what I liked. I could hear the iron
> and know it was iron. Didn't dig a single nail or
> anything with the 15 inch coil. On a return visit
> , I opted to put the 11 inch DD coil on there beca
> use I have to use a harness system with the 15 inc
> h due to the weight. I wanted to be as light as I
> could, because it had started getting into the 80s
> in the temps and that harness is hot. I got to my
> little spot and started rehunting in the iron. I
> bet I dug 50 nails in the first 2 hours of hunting
> . They all sounded like deep bullets to me. I we
> nt back to the truck and put the 15 inch coil on.
> I didn't dig a single nail the rest of the day and
> all I found were bullets, camp lead, buttons, j ho
> oks, etc. All good stuff except the occasional sh
> otgun shell. So coil size and how it is wound doe
> s impact the iron disc range and sound nuances. I
> have since bought a new DeTech 11 inch coil to rep
> lace the 11 inch Commander. I've yet to find time
> to use it but my hope is that it has the same effe
> ct as its big 15 inch brother on the sounds, and w
> ill help me get away from that harness.

Thanks so very much for that info. I really appreciate the time to comment. This site is red AL dirt and a house site with some nails, but there is a clear spot adjacent that has had dirt pushed over it. I think more is there, but deeper. I've picked a bit out with the Equinox, but going back with the spiral 15 may be helpful. I'm assuming it may be a more focused pattern given the way it's wound? I have the smaller ones to try at lower gain also.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2019 02:17AM by reddirtdigger.

Daniel Tn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have a minute or two of free time so I will chim
> e in here while I can. Only had to work 60 hrs thi
> s week.
>
> My question to the OP is, are we talking everyday
> normal soil conditions or are we referring to heav
> ily mineralized red dirt?
>
> That makes a big difference.
>
> If in normal, low to mild mineral, then I would ag
> ree with the others that you are probably punishin
> g yourself trying to use a GPX in the heavy iron s
> pots.
>
> If in the red dirt, then that changes the ball gam
> e considerably because the VLF machines are are al
> ready being brought down to their knees by the soi
> l itself. Some of the best VLF machines on the ma
> rket can only achieve 3 to 4 inches of depth MAX i
> n soil like that. So to put it blunt, it kinda re
> nders them useless. There are a few VLFs that can
> sorta do OK in soil like that, but don't expect no
> tight ID numbers or tones.
>
> My opinion for what it's worth...if hunting in red
> dirt and in heavy iron, I have yet to find a detec
> tor that can do both to a top notch degree. It be
> comes sort of a pick one or the other type thing.
> You CAN sort of make a GPX work in it, but you are
> still going to leave more in the ground than what
> you dig. I don't think there is a detector on the
> market yet that can do both efficiently. That's j
> ust my opinion. I've spent thousands of dollars t
> rying to find it. One of the best machines I've u
> sed to date that can cope with the bad soil and wo
> rk pretty decent in heavy iron....don't laugh, but
> it is the Blisstool. I have hopes that the Fisher
> discriminating PI land machine will maybe fill thi
> s void and open up a whole new world.
>
> As for the GPX itself and tones. I hear two tones
> as well and not just single or mono tone. Most an
> y video on YouTube will demonstrate this if you li
> sten close. My buddy and I both have GPX 4800s.
> When he first got his, I couldn't accompany him bu
> t sent him to the bullet fields to go get a feel f
> or his unit. I told him my settings and off he we
> nt. He didn't find a single minie ball. He got so
> me shotgun shells and some small modern bullets th
> ough. He texts me while he is hunting to ask me wh
> at they sounded like and I'd tell him they come in
> with a low tone...if they are shallow they will ha
> ve a high tone tail end after the low tone. He di
> dn't find a one. A little while later we went bac
> k down to the site together and I located one and
> called him over. He ran his machine over it and sa
> ys "Oh I have heard a lot of those...but I thought
> you said they were a low tone? That's a high tone
> ". He let me listen...sure enough...high tone. I
> knew then what had happened...went into his settin
> gs and he had Inverted the tones. So bullets on hi
> s machine were giving a high tone....and the stuff
> that normally gives a high tone, was giving him th
> e bullet low tone.
>
> For the effective depth of the iron discrimination
> part...I have found this actually varies quite a b
> it in your overall settings AND coil used. I ditc
> hed the stock Commander coils and bought all DeTec
> h coils for my GPX. I found a new site back in th
> e spring while hunting with the 15 inch Spiral DD
> coil and it had a little more iron mixed in with t
> he site than what I liked. I could hear the iron
> and know it was iron. Didn't dig a single nail or
> anything with the 15 inch coil. On a return visit
> , I opted to put the 11 inch DD coil on there beca
> use I have to use a harness system with the 15 inc
> h due to the weight. I wanted to be as light as I
> could, because it had started getting into the 80s
> in the temps and that harness is hot. I got to my
> little spot and started rehunting in the iron. I
> bet I dug 50 nails in the first 2 hours of hunting
> . They all sounded like deep bullets to me. I we
> nt back to the truck and put the 15 inch coil on.
> I didn't dig a single nail the rest of the day and
> all I found were bullets, camp lead, buttons, j ho
> oks, etc. All good stuff except the occasional sh
> otgun shell. So coil size and how it is wound doe
> s impact the iron disc range and sound nuances. I
> have since bought a new DeTech 11 inch coil to rep
> lace the 11 inch Commander. I've yet to find time
> to use it but my hope is that it has the same effe
> ct as its big 15 inch brother on the sounds, and w
> ill help me get away from that harness.

Thank you so much for the response. I'll try the 15 inch spiral out on the surrounding area. I have smaller DD coils to try in some of the more polluted areas that I'm trying to do final cleanup. I suspect that dirt was pushed into of some relic-heavy areas based on the pattern of finds. I appreciate everyone's perspective here...it's been insightful. Daniel, I'm hunting in red, northern Alabama soil, so anything below 5 inches with a non-PI is difficult.

About the spiral-wound technology, does anyone have any resources to show what the search pattern looks like compared to a DD or SEF? I'm assuming it is more focused based upon the way the windings are.

I'll try some things out and post back.

Just a small fact. If the soil is extreme most small iron will be ground balanced out. This was found to be the case while using not only a GPX, GP, Whites TDI and Eric Foster's Goldscan 5B. We used an MXT and had some targets marked. When excavated later all were found to be iron nails. We then went over the targets and got no response with the ground balancing pulse units. We found the only exceptions were nails that were bent and nails standing straight up in the hole. I attended several DIV Hunts and detected in the same locations back as far as the 80's. You must know your ground.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2019 07:11PM by texkinzee.

texkinzee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>... We found the only exce
> ptions were nails that were bent and nails standin
> g straight up in the hole.....


This has been the common lament for guys who beach hunt with pulse machines. They will tell you that "nails have a double beep" , or "I can pass nails", etc... Yet .. when pressed, will admit that bent nails fool them. And that they dig a bunch "just to be sure". And .... in the final analysis, we don't see them on nail-riddled beaches.

The *only* pulse user I've ever seen, that could actually do it (in a thick beach nail bed) was a guy with a Fisher pulse machine, about 20+ yrs. ago. I forget which pulse it was. But ... I could tell it wasn't easy . Ie.: he had to scrutinize signals multiple ways, etc.... But in the end : Dug little to no iron. I have not seen other pulse guys able to do it. They tend to disappear from nail-riddled beaches.

Another quandary I've always wondered about, when it comes to ID'ing nails , with various audio tricks, for the beach :

If one of the stated goals of pulse machines (among other purposes/benefits) is: To get dainty chains, small gold , etc.... Then do tell : If someone is passing "double beeps" (believing them to be nails), then : Wouldn't something like an elongated bracelet mimic that same sound ? Or a gold stick-pin ? If so, then doesn't that sort of defeat one of the purposes of the pulse machine, for the beach, in the first place ?

Oh Tom,

One of my ambitions is to go out with you on your favorite nail-ridden (from bonfires with pallets or whatever) and hopefully - black sand striped - beach with one of the new Fisher Impulse AQ detectors.

Now, I know that they don’t exist yet - at least not as a product on the market - and that however good it turns out to be, it’s not a miracle - it will be a tool with new capabilities and I can think of no one more prepared to evaluate the usefulness of that new machine - whenever it arrives - the usefulness of it as a tool to score a breakthrough in the capability of recovering gold jewelry at the salt water beach.

I suspect we will have a chance to do that someday - hopefully before too much longer - hell - I’ll be 73 this winter - Alexandre and Fisher need to get a move on!!!!!

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the us
> efulness of it as a tool to score a breakthrough i
> n the capability of recovering gold jewelry at the
> salt water beach.
>



Looking forward to that day as well.

As for the "being good at recovering gold jewelry" : There is never any dispute that all sorts of pulse machines are "good at gold jewelry". That is never in-question. The bigger question is : Are you going to be cursed digging iron ?

Or .... like the old saying about beach pulse machines:

The good news is: They're so sensitive that they can get a bobby pin to a foot down !

The bad news is: They're so sensitive that they can get a bobby pin to a foot down !

The AQ will literally “break new ground” in iron handling. Perfect ID of every type of ferrous material is likely impossible for any detector in wet salt, but I look forward to you putting your experience and reasonable skepticism to work testing it.

My own (very limited) experience with a prototype in October impressed me a lot, The classic tough to ID iron bits - steel bottle caps, rusty bobbiepins, these things will be the real challenges, bigger stuff not so much. Again, nothing is perfect, but this combination of depth and usable iron ID has not been available until now.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

Tom_in_CA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> texkinzee Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >... We found the only exce
> > ptions were nails that were bent and nails stand
> in
> > g straight up in the hole.....
>
>
> This has been the common lament for guys who beach
> hunt with pulse machines. They will tell you tha
> t "nails have a double beep" , or "I can pass nail
> s", etc... Yet .. when pressed, will admit that b
> ent nails fool them. And that they dig a bunch "j
> ust to be sure". And .... in the final analysis,
> we don't see them on nail-riddled beaches.
>
> The *only* pulse user I've ever seen, that could a
> ctually do it (in a thick beach nail bed) was a gu
> y with a Fisher pulse machine, about 20+ yrs. ago.
> I forget which pulse it was. But ... I could te
> ll it wasn't easy . Ie.: he had to scrutinize sig
> nals multiple ways, etc.... But in the end : Du
> g little to no iron. I have not seen other puls
> e guys able to do it. They tend to disappear fro
> m nail-riddled beaches.

Tom getting rid of nails, bobbie pins is easy with my TDI but you have to use the ground balance feature, not run the detector in straight PI. You just adjust the GB until the iron is gone. Good news is on my beach I still dug gold rings. Plenty of depth to boot. I believe at a higher ground balance you can lose small gold.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2019 02:16PM by texkinzee.

texkinzee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ....
>
> Tom getting rid of nails, bobbie pins is easy with
> my TDI but you have to use the ground balance feat
> ure, not run the detector in straight PI. You just
> adjust the GB until the iron is gone. ....

I am fully aware of that trick , which had much-press when the TDI first hit the market. And there is where the "devil is in the details" , eh ? Because the moment you go to avail yourself of the trick (and/or telling high vs lows) is the moment you've lost the fabled depth of pulse machines. You are left with no-more-depth than standard coin machines. Hence: "Why bother?"

And the term "standard coin machine", I realize, is sort of arbitrary. Because, of course, some standard discriminating machines, used on wet salt, are doing good just to get 8" deep, right ? Yet other discriminating machines, like the Sov. with WOT combo, can effortlessly exceed a foot, while effortlessly passing iron, at the same time. I would venture to say that once you employ the "tricks" on the TDI, you will fare-no-better than a Sov. or Excal, for example. JMHO.

lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The AQ will literally “break new ground” in iron h
> andling.


> The classic tough t
> o ID iron bits - steel bottle caps, rusty bobbiepi
> ns, these things will be the real challenges, ...

Well, if as you say: steel bottle caps, rusty bobbie pins (and I assume bent nails) will still be the "real challenges" , then .... what "new ground" in iron handling has been broken ??

lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> .... Perfect ID of every type of ferrous mate
> rial is likely impossible for any detector in wet
> salt, ....

Huh ? How do you figure ? I can dig 400 targets after storm erosion has hit the beach, and dig zero iron objects. That sounds like "perfect ID of ferrous" to me. I think you meant that Perfect ID FOR A PULSE ... for iron .. is likely impossible. To that I would agree.


Perhaps this is a regional geographic debate as well. Because in some places/beaches, perhaps black sands prohibit anything but a pulse. Thus, for those guys ANY TIME-SAVINGS to combat iron, is a real plus. And perhaps some people's beaches are very high-end touristy (Hawaii, etc...), and simply don't have much iron in the first place (d/t no industrial history, no beach bon-fires, etc....). In which case, then sure: Occasional "fooled" is not an issue.

But where I'm at (Monterey Bay, CA) there's been very few times where you would not get punished. Even at seemingly touristy clean beaches (Santa Cruz boardwalk, for instance), you would loose precious time, even if only 25% of your targets were iron-that-fooled ya. I've seen it over and over again in my decades here doing the beaches: The action will get "hot & heavy" after storm erosion. Such that you can dig targets as fast as you can. The only thing that shuts you down, is the incoming tide. So the name of the game is to get as many targets as you can. Depth and black-sand play no part in the formula. So it stands-to-reason that the fellow that occupied some of that precious time digging iron, will be the one that ended up with less conductors (read: "potential gold") at the end of the day.

An argument can be made that .... yes. ... the pulse guy ends up with more micro-jewelry. But .... heaven forbid you loose an earing stud or tinsel thin chain, right ? After all those have tons of gold weight to them, eh ?

On a few rare (and I do mean "rare") occasions, I would have given anything to have a pulse machine. Because on a few gully washes, and/or certain isolated beach stretches, I have run into gun-powder black. Where my depth drops to 1" (or even "zero inches"). And those zones are likely good , because I've even eyeballed silver coins right on top of the sand. But ... on our beaches, those pockets have been rare. And you merely move a few yards away and it cleans up.

The AQ will not be “fooled” by iron 25% of the time - no way no how. Corona caps are a problem for lots of VLF’s - maybe not yours. The AQ will likely hit on a few of those - nice round targets with complex plating and surface treatments to fool lots of machines.

You will likely get your chance to play with one sooner or later, then we will see how you feel after having used it.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2019 02:11AM by lytle78.