tectorists jailed for 10 and 8.5 years over hoard find

[www.bbc.co.uk]

Two metal detectorists have been jailed for stealing a £3m Viking hoard.

George Powell and Layton Davies uncovered about 300 coins in a field in Eye, near Leominster, Herefordshire, in 2015, but did not declare the treasure, instead selling it to dealers.

They were convicted of theft and concealing their find, with Powell, 38, jailed for 10 years and Layton, 51, for eight-and-a-half.

Sentencing, Judge Nicholas Cartwright said they had "cheated" the public.

Coin seller Simon Wicks, 56, was also convicted on the concealment charge and jailed for five years.

A fourth defendant, Paul Wells, 60, also convicted of concealing the find - who became unwell during Thursday's hearing - will be sentenced on 23 December.

Let that be a lesson to keep the govt out of the treasure hunting business. Thieves hate competition.

======================================================

You can see my videos here: [www.youtube.com]
My blog is here: [thesilverfiend.com]

======================================================

silverfiend Wrote:
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> Let that be a lesson to keep the govt out of the t
> reasure hunting business.....


Ditto. Better to have our USA system where : If you find goodies on private land, it's totally between you and farmer Bob how to split it. No govt. intrusion tentacles.

"cheated the public"

Not trying to stick up for these men however the judges reason for imposing this sentence is -
that they - " "cheated the public" -

I am sorry but Politicians, Corporations and Mainstream Media do this on a daily basis

I am sure the UK public feel cheated their Prince Pedo has "cheated the public" also,
but I bet he wont spend anytime in a prison cell -

[www.earthscan.co.nz]

The UK has a pretty good system. If you find a treasure hoard, the government has first rights to buy it from you at fair market value. If they decline, it's yours. Since these guys would have been paid for turning in the treasure, it sounds like they were simply evading taxes. And also cheating the landowner, with whom they likely had a deal. I have no sympathy for that.

I like the UK law for its preservation quality and the fact that the finder gets paid fairly. Nobody is being cheated.

Geotech Wrote:
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> ... and
> the fact that the finder gets paid fairly. Nobody
> is being cheated.

The md'r here in the USA is getting "paid fairly" in the USA system too. It's called "Ebay". Or the finder can elect not to sell at all (which is a liberty the UK hunters don't have the ability to choose).

As far as the UK's system as-it-pertains to splits with property owners : So too can USA hunters devise any which-method of split percentages, that they and farmer Bob agree to. So if someone is "hell-bent" on shafting a property owner agreement, then that can happen both here, and there.

Fair Market Value isn't fair market value when the buyer gets to decide what fair market value is.

Tom_in_CA Wrote:
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> Or the finder can elect not to sell at all (which is a liberty the UK hunters don't have the ability
> to choose).

The UK law pertains to hoards or finds of significant cultural value. Stuff that really belongs in a museum. Not everything. It's a pretty good model, IMO.

> So if someone is "hell-bent" on shafting a property owner agreement, then that can happen both here, and there.

Yes, and I'm just saying I have no sympathy for anyone who does that. As these guys appear to have done.


Champ Ferguson Wrote:
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> Fair Market Value isn't fair market value when the buyer gets to decide what fair market value is.

I believe there is an appeals process if the finder feels the price is low. I haven't heard of any complaints.

Geotech Wrote:
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> Tom_in_CA Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> . Stuff that really belongs in a
> museum.

No doubt there is stuff found in the USA, that should be in museums. And it's fair to make an argument that the UK system "solves" that (by forced sale, etc....).

But to ever attempt that here in the USA, would be a giant case of "Devil in the Details". It would end up putting restrictions on us. Not allowances. As proof of this, all you need to do is ever see when any city ever dreamed up "permits". While an express allowance sounds wonderful (beats being "silent on the issue", eh ?), yet you'll notice that whenever any place ever dreamed up a "permit" for their parks, that it's invariably filled with silly-ness. Like : "Yes but you can't dig". Or "not within 20 ft. of any tree", or "digger tool shall not exceed 3" in length". Or "turn in all objects of value to park office", etc.......

So too would some purist archie types get-hold of any attempt, to do a UK-like system, and would no doubt foul it all up. Someone would simply start asking "Gee, do we really want all these yahoos out there digging up the past ?".

So it's just too-little-too-late. Nor is our land laws anything like the UK (where the crown owns the wealth in the ground, even on private land).

Yes it'd be cool if more stuff was in museums. But the devil would be in the details. Also factor that .... as it is, the museums here are FILLED with donations that never see the light-of-day anyhow. There's only so much display space, museum-worker-time, etc.... Thus it's not like museums are "lacking things to display", as it is. I work in 2 museums doing docent work, so I'm familiar with the process.

Two thoughts here, Yes I have heard of many hunters not happy with the reimbursement amount they are forced to take. That "appeal" appears to be exemplified by "I'm not happy, I want an appeal - Sorry, we have determined you get exactly what we said originally"

Secondly, there is no such thing as "isolated finds" If you find 3 gold or silver coins in a field, it is declared a hoard.

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You can see my videos here: [www.youtube.com]
My blog is here: [thesilverfiend.com]

======================================================

please dont get the feds involved.....just what I want a crooked politician telling me what my finds are worth.

Geotech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The UK has a pretty good system. If you find a tre
> asure hoard, the government has first rights to bu
> y it from you at fair market value. If they declin
> e, it's yours. Since these guys would have been pa
> id for turning in the treasure, it sounds like the
> y were simply evading taxes. And also cheating the
> landowner, with whom they likely had a deal. I hav
> e no sympathy for that.
>
> I like the UK law for its preservation quality and
> the fact that the finder gets paid fairly. Nobody
> is being cheated.

maybe not as his lordship owner of the land hadnt given em permission .the farmer who was renting had given em permission but wasnt his land ..another finder of a roman coin hoard some years back in st albans was honest and declared his coins find but got nothing as the land owner said he hadnt given him permission and kept the lot and the finder got squat.. so the law doesnt always work in the finders favour

We don't need rules like that here because museums are not interested in mercury dimes and civil war bullets. But......if you sell your finds don't forget to claim it as income. Oh the government gets a CUT.

I love the Brits and Britain as a nation. But they have been serfs too long to fully understand what a little freedom is.
I know we aren't anywhere near perfect in the US (and its getting worse regardless of who is in office), but you'll not find a country that has more freedoms than we do.

They damn sure should have known better.
Now they get nothing but prison time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/2019 09:39PM by u2robert.

Champ Ferguson Wrote:
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> I love the Brits and Britain as a nation. But they
> have been serfs too long to fully understand what
> a little freedom is.
> I know we aren't anywhere near perfect in the US (
> and its getting worse regardless of who is in offi
> ce), but you'll not find a country that has more f
> reedoms than we do.


True that Champ....But we have to watch and be aware. The 'want to be government' over here is a changing along with the new peoples thinking.....not necessarily in that order.

ozzie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Champ Ferguson Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I love the Brits and Britain as a nation. But th
> ey
> > have been serfs too long to fully understand wha
> t
> > a little freedom is.
> > I know we aren't anywhere near perfect in the US
> (
> > and its getting worse regardless of who is in of
> fi
> > ce), but you'll not find a country that has more
> f
> > reedoms than we do.
>
>
> True that Champ....

Ditto to Champ. Despite all such weaknesses of the systems here, yet .... it's the desired "go-to" location of every other persons wanting to escape yet-worse nations. People will risk arm & limb to become USA citizens. I don't see USA persons "rushing to move to" the various other countries, esp. the 3rd-world-type places.

That's not to excuse various idiosyncrasies that exist here. But just sayin' that ..... we often don't know how good we have it.

Dont be blind, freedom is just a word, to know what you have you need to move somewhere else.
You can't say we have a lot of freedom if you ever left your country, it's just straight propaganda.

I tried 2 outside country (im from france) allready , all i can tell is the grass is not greener on canada or uk, it's just different, every country have their up and down.

It's quite balanced just a crap exemple :

In usa you have the right to carry a weapon
In france you dont if you dont have a hunt permit or fireweapon permit, you could think that is a freedom but what is the chance of getting killed by a cop in each country because of this freedom ?

Concerning the metal detecting in france, it's tolerated but if you follow the law it's totaly forbidden,you need to ask autorisation to the archeological admistration which they never give unless you are working on a site with professionnal archelogic, so metal detecting in france is like a russian roulette. If you get controlled by a zealous cop you can end in court.

In uk you can if you are not on protected site and or you ask permission to the owner you even can get payed by official administration !!!
I've heard in us in some state metal detecting is prohibited.

youdig Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Concerning the metal detecting in france, it's tol
> erated but if you follow the law it's totaly forbi
> dden,you need to ask autorisation to the archeolog
> ical admistration which they never give unless yo
> u are working on a site with professionnal archelo
> gic, so metal detecting in france is like a russia
> n roulette.

Re.: "It's tolerated" Sure. There's lots of md'ing going on in France (and similar countries with similar "dire sounding laws"). Right ? As long as you mind your P's & Q's, and don't go waltzing through the middle of an an archie convention. Right ? MD on private land, don't ask silly Q's to bored archies, etc..... Right ?

The same can be said of the USA: If I walked up to various purist archies and asked "Hi can I detect in the USA ?", then SO-TOO might I get reprimanded with all sorts of "dire sounding language" (eg.: ARPA, etc....). Yet .... just like in France .... so long as you aren't doing anything stupid, you are generally ignored and/or not-seen nor worried about.

Moral of the story ? : Don't bother "professional archaeologist administrations" with silly questions.

If thats a shot at me, I will say that i have traveled extensively in all of north American and in Europe (but not Britain)- for both pleasure and business. No 3rd world travel tho. Thankfully.

Tom_in_CA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ozzie Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Champ Ferguson Wrote:
> > ------------------------------------------------
> --
> > -----
> > > I love the Brits and Britain as a nation. But they have been serfs too long to fully understand what a little freedom is.
> > > I know we aren't anywhere near perfect in the US ( and its getting worse regardless of who is in of fice), but you'll not find a country that has more freedoms than we do.
> >
> >
> > True that Champ....
>
> Ditto to Champ. Despite all such weaknesses of the systems here, yet .... it's the desired "go-to" location of every other persons wanting to escape yet-worse nations. People will risk arm & limb
> to become USA citizens. I don't see USA persons " rushing to move to" the various other countries, esp. the 3rd-world-type places.
>
> That's not to excuse various idiosyncrasies that exist here. But just sayin' that ..... we often don't know how good we have it.

Depends on where you're comparing the U.S. to.

Working in the heart of Silicon Valley for the past 20 years, I can tell you it's mind boggling the amount of Indians and Chinese that have taken it over in the past 20 years, it's not because we "need" them and their H1B visas, that's all BS of epic proportions. The "jobs" are worded specifically so that Indian and Asian managers can continue to bring in more of the same, excluding American's from taking these jobs.

Most of these H1B visa workers have zero desire to get U.S. citizenship, the U.S. has simply turned into a mega piggy bank for them. It's Silicon Valley's dirty little secret, and one of the reasons housing is so utterly ridiculously priced. You would be shocked at the amount of Chinese emigrants that are able to plunk down $1M+ CA$H to buy a little 1200 sq ft WW2 tract home.

The "American dream" emigrants of decades gone past bought into simply isn't todays dream, todays dream is significantly different, no care of cultural integration, no concern for the American fabric. They generally live in a cultural bubble, to them the U.S. is largely just a cash cow, and a status symbol to those back home that they've "made it".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/2019 05:29PM by Cal_cobra.

Cal_cobra Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...
> the U.S. is largely just a cash cow, and a status
> symbol to those back home that they've "made it".

Good point. Maybe they're content with perpetual visitor status. And that it wouldn't be correct to say their life-goal is US citizen-ship. Granted. Still though, the point remains: What is the "made it" in your text ? It's : Made it to America where there's economic affluence.

Brian...…… well said.

Tom_in_CA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cal_cobra Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ...
> > the U.S. is largely just a cash cow, and a status symbol to those back home that they've "made it".
>
> Good point. Maybe they're content with perpetual visitor status. And that it wouldn't be correct to say their life-goal is US citizen-ship. Granted. Still though, the point remains: What is the "made it" in your text ? It's : Made it to America where there's economic affluence.

It's more complicated then that. They see Silicon Valley as the pinnacle of engineering, an engineering sanctuary of sorts. If you were to specifically discuss Indian culture, it's quite interesting. It's a very classfull, hierarchical society, a relic of the British Empire. We think the disparity between the rich and poor here is extreme, yet it's nothing compared to there. Most of the ones that are able to go to engineering school there have somewhat affluent families to begin with (parents have government jobs or were doctors, etc). That means they have maids, cooks, drivers, people that pick up and do their laundry, someone to wipe their a$$, do their shopping, you name it. Any car here, even a Honda Civic, is a luxury item because back home most do not drive simply because it's impracticable there. They have drivers to shuttle them to the office, or if your of a lower statue you likely take the train.

The irony is, when they arrive here, it's a wake-up call that most of the world doesn't afford such luxuries. The other irony is they have, for the most part no idea how to do the things I mentioned, because someones been wiping their a$$ all along back home.

At any rate, to answer your question "made it" is simply coming here and getting a job at a hi-tec company, because most of the world views the U.S. as having streets paved with gold. To a certain degree their sold a bogus "bill of goods" because you can get what appears to be a great salary at a tech company here, but by the time you factor in a $4K/month 2 bedroom apartment, the fact that Uncle Sam taxed any money your brought with you (even though it was likely already taxed in the motherland), their reduced to the likes of us mere mortals who do their own cooking, cleaning, driving and a$$ wiping. When you get right down to it, it's a bit of a pyramid system. Some of the cream of the crop talent will get lured into the likes of google, apple, or whatever and get loaded up with RSUs. This will afford them the opportunity to purchase a home here, which pretty much starts at $1M for a small starter/fixer upper at the moment. Oh and there's one other "wrench" in the system, something that Trump tried to address - if one of them gets sponsored by a tech company on a H1B worker visa, currently that also enables their spouse to take a job here. Doesn't have to be in tech, could be a secretary job, or anything. So now, not only are they displacing Americans from engineering jobs, their also taking fairly mundane normal fare blue collar jobs as well, that have traditionally enabled American families with dual incomes to thrive. Is there any silver lining here? I guess you can thank them for contributing to our Social Security retirement system, because unless they become a U.S. citizen, they'll never see a penny of it, so they currently contribute around $8239.80 a year per person into the system. Although truth be told, I'm sure the government spends far more on bureaucratical paper pushing and other associated expenses processing immigrant worker programs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2019 07:13PM by Cal_cobra.

haha i found exactly the guy you are talking about. but yeah usualy foreigner that you see having those job or even getting here with a visa already have a good amount of cash in their own country.

[www.youtube.com]

the UK has ancient laws from way back in time so it would be hard to change em all as there is so many over 100s of years .

anything below the soil belongs to the crown so it goes ..its like you going onto some guys farm and stealing a horse or cow or truck .obviously he wont like it and could use arms

May be off topic from the UK incident, but I like your perspective Brian.

SeabeeRon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> May be off topic from the UK incident, but I like your perspective Brian.

Thanks Ron. Working in Silicon Valley for the past 20 years has been an eye opener, it's certainly provided me with a unique perspective on the immigration process from a higher social economic stature then immigration is usually looked at in our country (especially more recently). Most of the world has no idea what goes on here, it's a very unique environment. Peering behind the green curtain has shown the motivation, dirty secrets and tricks at play to game the system. Personally I do not like what I see, but I'm only an observer.

Cal_cobra Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Working in Silicon Valley for the pas
> t 20 years has been an eye opener, it's certainly
> provided me with a unique perspective on the immig
> ration process .....

Look at the bright side Brian: if you ever want to move to India and work for $1 a day, I bet there's a job waiting for you. And I hear the metal detecting is pretty good over there, eh ?

Tom_in_CA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cal_cobra Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> Working in Silicon Valley for the pas
> > t 20 years has been an eye opener, it's certainl
> y
> > provided me with a unique perspective on the imm
> ig
> > ration process .....
>
> Look at the bright side Brian: if you ever want t
> o move to India and work for $1 a day, I bet there
> 's a job waiting for you. And I hear the metal d
> etecting is pretty good over there, eh ?

Hadnt he better ask someone in authority over there first before detecting, Tom?