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Testing a new prototype

Posted by NASA-Tom 
Testing a new prototype
February 05, 2020 08:15AM
Without infringing on this entity...…. I want to fill you in on a unit I have been testing...….. with (a protective/limited amount of) information that I can share. I've had a new prototype for just over two weeks. I will have it for a total of 3 weeks..... then must send it back. This unit is a relic hunter and a wet salt beach hunter. It is quite a bit deeper than the Tarsacci…… on the wet-salt beach. More than an inch deeper on a Nickel..... on a wet-salt beach. In fact; closer to 1-1/2" deeper than the Tarsacci…… on a Nickel. And this is running it at a high-gain setting; yet, without infringing on any form of stability. It'll go even deeper; yet, must then be driven into the hyper-sensitivity/high-gain levels...… where it is unpleasant to hunt with. I do not want to share these numbers...…. as they are unrealistic; undo'able/not rational. The entire premise of this detector …. is to ID iron with extreme accuracy...… to full/maximum detection depth. And it does. The ID capabilities between ferrous and non-ferrous..... is tremendous. The ID capabilities on targets in the non-ferrous range are not what you would expect. It clumps/categorizes the non-ferrous range into two brackets: Low conductors......and......High conductors. So far...….. based from my skillset...…. from just above iron (the low end of the aluminum foil range)……. all the way up to aluminum Round Tab (a few points above a Nickel)……… the unit ID's as a mid-tone. From the old style aluminum Square Tab...… all the way up to a Silver Dollar...….. the unit reports a high-tone. It is very accurate in doing such.

This unit has made me come to realize that: There is no basis...… no base-reference...… for "iron depth"...…. and for "iron ID"...…,,,,,,,, in the metal detecting industry. So everyone can compare apples-to-apples...….. it would be nice to have ….. say: a 4-penny nail...for a base-reference/standardized test-standard target; yet, there are different flavors/alloys of such nail. You can not use a certain/specified-size washer...… because they are not 'iron' per definition. A washer is 'steel'..... of which is an alloy. Plus..... they are round...….. and will fool most current-day technology. You can not use a steel bottlecap...… as...…. they TOO.... are steel (of various alloys)……are round...….. and also come with different non-ferrous coatings.... which is yet another variable. Sooooooooooo………… I need to put some "thunk-time" into this.

As far as inland hunting...….. this unit is below-average with its ability of adjacent target separation characteristics; yet, it is flagship depth (even over the EQX and Simplex)…… in mild and medium mineralization dirt. (I do not easily have access to bad dirt). If you are in an area of moderate-to-medium trash (to include iron nails)…. this unit is rather eye-opening. It has opened up old sites. This unit certainly follows the K.I.S.S. theory model...… as it is very easy to set up...…. and very easy to hunt with: understanding it's audio intelligence. Audio is properly modulated. Size and depth of targets is easy to determine. There is no depth gauge...…. and no VID ID numbers. I know the bulk of the hunters on planet Earth are 'old coin' hunters...…. and this detector is a tremendous-depth coin hunter; yet, I cannot categorize it as a "general-purpose coin hunter"...… due to the High tone NOT being 'specific/exacting for coins'; hence, my statement of: Relic and Beach category detector.

I have very strong reservations if this unit will ever make it to market. So; 'why' do I share this info/data:

1. Technology can easily be pushed further (and now with validated proof).
2. VLF is not dead. PI is not dead.
3. There are some very bright innovative folks out there.
4. Clean mindset can equate to ingenious engineering ingenuity.
5. New ideas do not have to be 'complex'.


I feel this entity has targeted the Tarsacci……. and rightfully so. (Because: as of Spring-of-2020...….. the Tarsacci is the Worlds wet-salt Flagship). Yes, the Tarsacci can be 'pushed further'; yet, we will wait to come out with a new Tarsacci Flagship...… so as NOT to hurt the feelings of the folks of whom already have a MDT.

If I find that I can share more data...….. I will do such.
Re: Testing a new prototype
February 05, 2020 10:05AM
Without mentioning what "it" is.

How does it compare to a Minelab GPZ 7000 on depth, say for a quarter, (50%?)
Re: Testing a new prototype
February 05, 2020 10:17AM
Most interesting. Thanks, and glad you shared this with us. HH jim tn
Re: Testing a new prototype
February 05, 2020 11:27AM
It seems a lot of detectors start out as a relic machine.... mostly just IDing targets. Is it because the basic tech is already there all they have to do is improve a little on it? But they dont seem to nail down the direction they want to go.... coin, relic, gold. As a relic machine they have to compete with the BIG MLs, coins..... the much faster and better separation of these multi units..... and on gold will it be a PI? Relic machines tend to like iron best ..... so they can be a bit difficult to work with on the wet sand..... and you didnt mention a salt setting or just how it did on gold. Hopefully a new start up trying to find its niche in a very competitive game.
Re: Testing a new prototype
February 05, 2020 01:25PM
Interesting.
Thanks for sharing.
Re: Testing a new prototype
February 05, 2020 02:28PM
Return of the Pulse Devil
Re: Testing a new prototype
February 05, 2020 03:25PM
Thanks for sharing Tom, very interesting things going on out there in the world of metal detectors.
Re: Testing a new prototype
February 05, 2020 04:10PM
Thanks Tom for the Info. I'm looking forward to hearing more about this in the future, and saving my money.
Re: Testing a new prototype
February 05, 2020 07:53PM
1st Texas/Fisher was faced with this same dilemma as they continued to tweak and improve their circuits: Do I implement version improvements on the fly or do I hold them until I can release a 'new' model? Ultimately the user base told them not to hold them back but go ahead and release their improvements as they could, thus resulting in version updates and SE, LTD, + models.

The Dimitar Tarsacci group is going to have to make the same decision. Do I hold the improvements back or release under revision control as they improve their circuits?

HH
Mike
Re: Testing a new prototype
February 05, 2020 08:56PM
Mike Hillis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1st Texas/Fisher was faced with this same dilemma
> as they continued to tweak and improve their circu
> its: Do I implement version improvements on the f
> ly or do I hold them until I can release a 'new' m
> odel? Ultimately the user base told them not to
> hold them back but go ahead and release their impr
> ovements as they could, thus resulting in version
> updates and SE, LTD, + models.
>
> The Dimitar Tarsacci group is going to have to mak
> e the same decision. Do I hold the improvements b
> ack or release under revision control as they impr
> ove their circuits?
>
> HH
> Mike


This illustrates the importance of user upgradable software updates. Minelab was also faced with similar challenges on the Equinox, and I think they went a good direction and we've seen some meaningful SW upgrades since its release two years ago.

I think FTP went the wrong way, confusing and infuriating a lot of their user base with the constant rebadging of their F75 line.
Re: Testing a new prototype
February 05, 2020 11:07PM
I agree Brian. User upgradable software update ability should be an industry standard in the digital world.

HH
Mike
Re: Testing a new prototype
February 06, 2020 12:27AM
Robocop.... I do not have enough data with the GPZ..... to give a valid/definitive answer. Especially on wet-salt beach. (Somehow..... I don't ever remember the GPZ acquiring a 14" deep Nickel in the wet-salt w/stock coil).

Dew...……. I used a Nickel for the purposes of mass-public-understanding. I did use a man's 10Kt wedding band on the wet-salt beach.... for testing purposes. It presented nearly identical performance to the Nickel. ((The conductivity of the gold ring is just a few points below the Nickel)).
Also...……. this entity went all-out for depth. Turns out....it does just exactly that....,,,,, on the wet-salt beach..... and inland dirt (mild-medium mineralization).

Steve H. .. It seems more akin to the hyper performance of the Tarsacci……… rather than a souped-up 1266X and/or PI.

This unit...….. as it stands...….. does not have provisions for upgradable software; yet, the software port IS available...… but...… is inside the control box. (Which is: Rainproof now...… but not waterproof).
Re: Testing a new prototype
February 06, 2020 12:47AM
Tom, are you at liberty to tell us what size and shape coil it has ?
Re: Testing a new prototype
February 06, 2020 12:51AM
Mike Hillis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree Brian. User upgradable software update ability should be an industry standard in the digital world.
>
> HH
> Mike


Agreed. If they were wise, they could provide a base platform with fee based upgrades as new features and/or functionality were introduced. Then it truly would obsolete all others smiling smiley

I work in the cyber security industry and it's heavily subscription based - buy the base hardware, add on services and subscriptions for features and functionality as required. Really there was no need to make a EQ600 and EQ800, they could've just made an EQX and if you wanted the additional prospect mode and advanced features, you could've simply downloaded the feature from their "app store". Maybe I should patent that before one of these companies decides that's a good idea like the rest of the world's already doing smileys with beer
Re: Testing a new prototype
February 06, 2020 03:20AM
Tom...….. it's a 11" round coplanar. Looks nearly identical to the CZ 8" coil; yet, it's 11" round.
Re: Testing a new prototype
February 06, 2020 05:17AM
Great at wet-salt beach, but not-so-much inland, yet not waterproof to work in the water? Is that a smart move?
Re: Testing a new prototype
February 06, 2020 09:41AM
John...…… it's a prototype. All engineering (time/labor/effort) went into the electronics...…. just to simply see if the conceptual notion would even work...…… and/or...….. is worth anything.
Re: Testing a new prototype
February 06, 2020 11:55AM
Waiting to come out with a new Tarsacci Flagship....... is wise. See what the AQ or other designs that come out offer .... especially for in the water hunting. There are improvements i that area..... work on their weaknesses .... disc, depth, sensitivity or TID. For in the water use...... i like a machine that works like the Xcal in PP and the MDT. It allows you the ability to use most of its power and runs much quieter. Down side....can be TID because its doing so much so fast. GL with the project.
Re: Testing a new prototype
February 06, 2020 10:46PM
Garrett used co-planar coils back in the 1980's If I remember correctly.
Re: Testing a new prototype
February 07, 2020 05:31AM
possum mo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Garrett used co-planar coils back in the 1980's If I remember correctly.

Maybe you're thinking about coaxial? The original Garrett VLF had a coaxial coil.

All concentrics & DD coils are coplanar, so most detectors use coplanar coils.
Re: Testing a new prototype
February 07, 2020 10:17AM
Re: Testing a new prototype
February 08, 2020 04:46PM
Im surprised that no one asked if it was the AQ you were testing. Well you swinging one on the beach yet? I mean this is the first week of Feb. Again........ Carl, we still on track for Feb launch? Im sure hoping it wasnt the AQ Tom because you said it was unlikely that this machine would be produced....... that news would sure bust a lot of bubbles.
Re: Testing a new prototype
February 08, 2020 04:53PM
Weird you will stop from making a new detector because of people feelz LOL.
I for one am ready for the next Tarsacci.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2020 05:01PM by GreenMeanie.
Re: Testing a new prototype
February 08, 2020 05:00PM
Dew, read Tom’s post again - it is abundantly clear that this is not an AQ.

“This unit is a relic hunter...”

“Mid tones”

“Below average adjacent target separation”

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold
Re: Testing a new prototype
February 08, 2020 06:17PM
He also said hes under NDA, so asking would a pointless waste of time. He couldnt tell you if it was.

======================================================

You can see my videos here: [www.youtube.com]
My blog is here: [thesilverfiend.com]

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Re: Testing a new prototype
February 08, 2020 06:37PM
I know I know.... but I had to ruffle some feathers. He can only NOT talk if he has one. if he don’t have one yet seems I might get one before him ..... at least I can talk about it. I hope lol.
Re: Testing a new prototype
February 08, 2020 08:01PM
No...…. it is not the AQ/Impulse...… just to be clear. ((( I should have clearly stated that...…. from the get-go ))).
And...…….. No. I do not have a AQ/Impulse.

This particular proto unit (that I had to ship back today)…….. I am under no "formal" NDA; yet, there is heavy (to include: self-imposed) protective/prudence confidentiality of intellectual property being exercised.

GreenMeanie………. The next Gen Tarsacci is heavily underway...…… is a game-changer...……. and ……… could proceed in several different directions. BUT...…. is (probably) years away. The MDT is already proving that a PI (and all of its inherent limitations/disabilities) may not be necessary for bad dirt. It has been a serious eye-opener for many C.D.E.'s. Folks in New Zealand….. and folks here (to include: on this forum)……. are starting to see this. What is difficult is: If you are in bad salt..... or bad mineralization...….,,,,,,,, it seems counter-intuitive to run Sens at exceptionally low settings. A Sens setting of '3'...… in exceptionally heavy salt (and/or heavy mineralization)………… is equiv to a Sens setting of '8' in low minerals. (The MDT utilizes the conductivity of bad dirt...…. to help envelop/transmit its energy). This particular proto ALSO performs this...… to a certain/measurable extent. Mindset and technology are changing.

Tarsacci and Minelab are VERY forward-thinking entities. Keep your eyes-open // ears-tuned.
Re: Testing a new prototype
February 08, 2020 08:20PM
All this new technology stuff is exciting but at the same time, depressing. As metal detector technology is finally progressing forward, at the same time, our own health and ability to "get out there" is declining and so are our sites. It is precisely the main reason why I don't relic hunt as much these days. I simply know of where many sites once where...under that big subdivision, or strip mall, or where that new 4 lane highway cuts through the gap. We'll have all these new detectors and nowhere to really use them unless we're going to log some serious miles on the vehicles. My Tundra just hit 200,000 miles last week. A good many of them were going to Virginia, Georgia, and all through Tennessee looking for Civil War stuff.
Re: Testing a new prototype
February 08, 2020 08:23PM
You did say “it may not be released”. That’s what I picked up on.

We know the AQ will be released, who knows when. From what Rick last stated sounds like there’s a lot of “little” things to be worked out yet.

In the mean time,,,CARL, c’mon bro...send Tom what you have, he’ll help you guys get that beast out!

Tom...you had me at “Next Gen TARSACCI Flagship”, until you said YEARS!! : (

Who’s knows,,,,maybe it will out before the AQ!!!!!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2020 08:33PM by Aaron.
Re: Testing a new prototype
February 08, 2020 08:43PM
The eyebrow raiser to me is that the MDT works so well in and around the salt water with single freq..... something a lot of people didn’t think could be done effectively. I won’t pick on Fisher about the time frame..... but are we anywhere close? Well if you ain’t got one yet .....I presume mines not in the mail either. I’m like a kid with a quarter in my pocket here. I am curious why you would sign a NDA weeks before it’s release. That will hinder your ability to share information and increase our learning curve.... flow of information I assume is why we are all here?

What’s the reason for not releasing this machine Tom. Just not quite reaching the goal? New company Tom?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2020 08:50PM by dewcon4414.
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