APEX issue...

Iron Audio? Or software bug?

[youtu.be]

Originally he done the test with iron audio on, I believe Monty contacted him to say he should try the test again with iron audio off in zero mode, but it made little difference in the iron nail test.

The Apex costs £520 in the UK, that's more than the Vanquish pro pack or a Simplex, and I can understand their worry that it doesn't seem to be any better than either of them, and it's not like it can be updated online to fix any bugs.

Don't think it is going to be the game changer everyone was waiting for from Garrett. Recovery speed is too slow. It has the ability to be upgraded through the mini USB port if Garrett decides it needs an update. I could be wrong, but I don't think this problem will be updated away.

I highly doubt that i will even consider getting a Apex,i think it will keep Garrett in the detecting game but i dont think it's a game changer.

If you are a Garrett fan you might want to wait for the Apex Pro or the Apex Max. maybe this Apex is an entry level unit. Just thinking out loud, I don't know what Garrett is planning.

coinspader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you are a Garrett fan you might want to wait fo
> r the Apex Pro or the Apex Max. maybe this Apex
> is an entry level unit. Just thinking out loud, I
> don't know what Garrett is planning.

I love the breakdown it's right on.

Another week of hunting by new owners will tell us more............................thinking everyone was expecting more from the Apex than it was intended to be. So there is some disappointment in the air.

DeepTech Vista X with 3 search coils.
Works for me

Garrett must be concerned about all the bad reviews. They made their own video. Seems like Steve was cherry picking the nail board test. A regular swing speed would have missed most of them. https://youtu.be/ZzIG0U8qq1Y

Sound to me like everyone is expecting Garrett to not be Garrett. Once you read the manual you know It is the top of the line ACE series. ACE150 through ACE APEX. That is all it is. No special sauce included.

If the other ACE models didn't do well in a nail board test, this one wont either.

HH
Mike

That nail board Garrett used looks bigger than a standard size nail board. I could be wrong.

not rusty old nails either

Not sure what everyone was expecting, it's their ACE lineup.

I suspect this is more of a test mule entry into the SMF (is it even true SMF like the Equinox?) which gets Garrett's foot in the door, and a platform that they can build and improve on.

Hopefully Nokta fares far better with their foray into the SMF arena.

Cal_cobra Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not sure what everyone was expecting, it's their A
> CE lineup.
>
> I suspect this is more of a test mule entry into t
> he SMF (is it even true SMF like the Equinox?) whi
> ch gets Garrett's foot in the door, and a platform
> that they can build and improve on.
>
> Hopefully Nokta fares far better with their foray
> into the SMF arena.


Either one of them has a LOT of catching up to Minelab who has had SMF detectors for years (it's called experience)!

right! many thousands of hours in the field. results speak for themselves.
patents are "locked" up everybody's playing catch up!

(h.h.!)
j.t.

D&P-OR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cal_cobra Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Not sure what everyone was expecting, it's their
> A
> > CE lineup.
> >
> > I suspect this is more of a test mule entry into
> t
> > he SMF (is it even true SMF like the Equinox?) w
> hi
> > ch gets Garrett's foot in the door, and a platfo
> rm
> > that they can build and improve on.
> >
> > Hopefully Nokta fares far better with their fora
> y
> > into the SMF arena.
>
>
> Either one of them has a LOT of catching up to Minelab who has had SMF detectors for years (it's called experience)!

For sure, 20+ years of experience in multi-frequency detecting technology counts for a lot! Carl once said that a typical SF VLF machine, like a MXT or F75 might, at most have something like 10,000 lines of code, whereas a multifreaker like the White's V3 has over 100,000 lines of code, so it's several magnitudes more complex than a typical VLF SF detector.

Still fun to see them try, and who knows, perhaps our friends in Turkey have a trick or two up their sleeve! It's great to see companies innovating to try to make a better mouse trap.

I think I read from Mr. Carl Moreland that the size of the MXT program is 2% of the size of the Spectra V3 program ...

Apex is a modern multifrequency detector .. which is not a problem to improve the software ..

That's what Spectra was missing ... software optimization ... sharpen a diamond.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2020 07:15PM by EL NINO.

Cal_cobra Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> D&P-OR Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Cal_cobra Wrote:
> > ------------------------------------------------
> --
> > -----
> > > Not sure what everyone was expecting, it's the
> ir
> > A
> > > CE lineup.
> > >
> > > I suspect this is more of a test mule entry in
> to
> > t
> > > he SMF (is it even true SMF like the Equinox?)
> w
> > hi
> > > ch gets Garrett's foot in the door, and a plat
> fo
> > rm
> > > that they can build and improve on.
> > >
> > > Hopefully Nokta fares far better with their fo
> ra
> > y
> > > into the SMF arena.
> >
> >
> > Either one of them has a LOT of catching up to M
> inelab who has had SMF detectors for years (it's c
> alled experience)!
>
> For sure, 20+ years of experience in multi-frequen
> cy detecting technology counts for a lot! Carl on
> ce said that a typical SF VLF machine, like a MXT
> or F75 might, at most have something like 10,000 l
> ines of code, whereas a multifreaker like the Whit
> e's V3 has over 100,000 lines of code, so it's sev
> eral magnitudes more complex than a typical VLF SF
> detector.
>
> Still fun to see them try, and who knows, perhaps
> our friends in Turkey have a trick or two up their
> sleeve! It's great to see companies innovating to
> try to make a better mouse trap.


perhaps they do!..you can bet the ranch, (at the very least) that they are going over those patents to determine
if they can circumvent them legally.

(h.h.!)
j.t.

I thought Minelabs patents had expired for BBS FBS now ?

jmaryt Wrote:

>
> perhaps they do!..you can bet the ranch, (at the very least) that they are going over those patents to determine if they can circumvent them legally.
> (h.h.!)
> j.t.

I don't think it's a patent issue. Minelab's patents didn't stop Garrett. Did White's leverage any of Minelab's patents on their V3?

Simply having multi frequency technology, is in itself not something that Minelab can corner the market on with a patent. If that was the case, we all be driving Fords or whatever right? Patents have a limited shelf life, and I'd imagine that many of Minelab's patent timers have expired.

My hope is not for another company to copy Minelab, but come up with their own unique, and hopefully better SMF technology. The bar is high, but that's what drives innovation.

all that you mention is true cal! what i am specifically referring to is the possibility
of mistakenly "copying" their multi-iq patent design, which i neglected to mention in my post.
coming up with a ''scratch" design is far more preferable from a n innovation perspective.yes, i definitely agree with that.

(h.h.!)
j.t.

sanjuro Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I thought Minelabs patents had expired for BBS FBS
> now ?

i am referring to "multi-iq" technology.those patent(s)
are still new and protected,i would think.

(h.h.!)
j.t.

Let me jump in here just a little bit, if you don't mind. One thing I have always noticed on many of the posts here on Tom's site is that there are a lot of bellyachers who are quick to offer all their negative thoughts because something new or different isn't what they consider to be the right pick for them and their needs. The percentage of complainers who do so tend to be those without any hands-on experience afield with some of those models, or they kind of have a built-in bias towards a different brand, or just a big negative about the one they don't like.

As for me, I have over 55 years of very active, very avid detecting time, and have owned or handled the bulk of what has been offered. Some models I like, such as the Teknetics T2+, but I have some detectors now that replaced it because they worked better in dense iron nail contaminated sites. I don't have it now, but I still like it, understand it, but just don't need it. I do have a MInelab Vanquish 540, and I have been enjoying it for a lot of the sites I hunt where it makes a good fit, but it's not perfect. Those involved with its design kind of messed up on the preset Ground Balance and 'Horseshoe' activation in each mode, but it is still functional if you work around the glitch, and it, like the Equinox 800 I had, do well for a lot of hunting tasks, but they fail miserably in several test scenarios using Iron nails. But they are still good detectors.

I've been using my new Garrett Apex for the past seven days to better learn it and understand it to get to know it's weaknesses as well as strengths. It makes the 10th unit I have in my current Detector Outfit, having thinned a few out this past few months, and it isn't going anywhere except out to be used. I might put it to work in a plowed field, a pasture or rangeland location, a yard, or out in the open areas of a park, school or sports field. I will NOT take it out to a known Relic Hunting site just yet because it doesn't handle the dense areas of iron contamination. The modest portions, yes, I'll work it, but I have several detectors in my team that are the special application tools to get the job done there.

As mentioned earlier, I have watched all of the videos posted so far based on my Nail Board Performance Test, and I believe the one Steve Moore used in his Garrett video was a bit larger than the actual scale, thus giving a better performance look for the Apex. I called Garrett on Friday after watching that video but missed catching Steve. I left a message for him that I am going to be sending an 'official' done-to-scale Nail Board 'kit' to Steve / Garrett first thing Tuesday morning. I'll also be sending one to Ander who did the videos using the Apex and Simplex + then the F19. The last recent years I have gone through a lot of Nail Board 'kits' I sell to people looking to evaluate their detectors and search coils, and all of them are done to the exact scale as my first encounter that started me using it. Since they are all to scale, everyone can make a universal test to share results because others use the exact same test boars. I have an order with a new sign makes or another hundred or so to be made.

Now for my views on the Garrett deign and marketing folks .... I think they messed up.

I understand the Ace series have been as big seller for them, and no, the Apex is not a waterproof AT series model either. But it is 'different' from both of those groups and I feel they should NOT have made it a part of the Ace series. I'd drop the Ace on the logo and future production models and simply make the Apex the start of a new series. For one thing, it is not an Ace series when it comes to performance. It doesn't share any of the Ace series coils, and it sets some new marks of innovation from the folks at Garrett with both selectable Multi-frequencies and the Simultaneous Multi-Flex and Multi-Salt options. I was a Garrett dealer from 77 thru '81 because, at that time, I felt they had some of the best and most competitive models on the market with their 15 kHz VLF/TR-Disc. GroundHog and compact 50 kHz American S2 TR-Disc. model. I did like the performance and features of their Scorpion Gold Stinger, but not the ergonomics or coil choice.

But since '81 I have owned, used and parted with a number of their other models because, for me, they fell short on performance to a lot of the makes and models I preferred, and sure didn't handle the nasty dense Iron Nail locations I frequent. I was hoping for some new and improved that was light-weight and well balance, and the Apex is. Something with better audio tone response, decent performance for a lot of urban Coin Hunting applications, and the Apex is. Simply a new unit that was significantly different from anything else they offered to set a standard of a new direction for Garrett, and the Apex has

I think there is a chance we might see some improved performance in dense trash, but we really can't determine that until they get a decent-working smaller-size coil out for the Apex. Something in a round-shape of about 4½" to 5½", but not bigger than 6" in diameter. It would be nice if they make a Concentric coil for us in that size, too. It doesn't have to be a DD coil. So far, doing side-by-side comparisons afield with a few of my favorite detector models for Coin Hunting, taking just four of the TID units I keep in my vehicle for daily travel, the best on the Nail Boar or for hunting a few tough places I've been ... in order ... were the White's MX-7 w/6½" Concentric coil, the Nokta / Makro Simplex + w/5X9½ DD coil, and just about a tie between the Minelab Vanquish 540 w/5X8 DD and Garrett Apex w/6X11 DD. Of those two I might give the nod to the Apex as it just barely, kind-of, edges the Vanquish on one sweep route across the Nail Board.

But for Coin Hunting all the typical places from open to modest litter to really dense modern trash around the picnic bowery locations, the Apex has done reasonably well and I am taking into consideration they will bring us a smaller-size coil to better handle the foil, pull-tab and other annoying dense litter. The Garrett Apex is-what-it-is. Like all detectors, it isn't going to satisfy everyone, nor handle every trashy site we encounter. But it is going to do just fine for me and many users who like it for many places they generally hunt. I know my Apex isn't going anywhere except out to play, but I also know that will all it has to offer, it hasn't bumped anything out of my arsenal. It's just one more good detector that will do what I need when I want it to.

Opinions from Monte

Monte Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let me jump in here just a little bit, if you don'
> t mind. One thing I have always noticed on many o
> f the posts here on Tom's site is that there are a
> lot of bellyachers who are quick to offer all thei
> r negative thoughts because something new or diffe
> rent isn't what they consider to be the right pick
> for them and their needs. The percentage of compl
> ainers who do so tend to be those without any hand
> s-on experience afield with some of those models,
> or they kind of have a built-in bias towards a dif
> ferent brand, or just a big negative about the one
> they don't like.
>
> As for me, I have over 55 years of very active, ve
> ry avid detecting time, and have owned or handled
> the bulk of what has been offered. Some models I
> like, such as the Teknetics T2+, but I have some d
> etectors now that replaced it because they worked
> better in dense iron nail contaminated sites. I
> don't have it now, but I still like it, understand
> it, but just don't need it. I do have a MInelab V
> anquish 540, and I have been enjoying it for a lot
> of the sites I hunt where it makes a good fit, but
> it's not perfect. Those involved with its design
> kind of messed up on the preset Ground Balance and
> 'Horseshoe' activation in each mode, but it is sti
> ll functional if you work around the glitch, and i
> t, like the Equinox 800 I had, do well for a lot o
> f hunting tasks, but they fail miserably in severa
> l test scenarios using Iron nails. But they are s
> till good detectors.
>
> I've been using my new Garrett Apex for the past s
> even days to better learn it and understand it to
> get to know it's weaknesses as well as strengths.
> It makes the 10th unit I have in my current Detect
> or Outfit, having thinned a few out this past few
> months, and it isn't going anywhere except out to
> be used. I might put it to work in a plowed field
> , a pasture or rangeland location, a yard, or out
> in the open areas of a park, school or sports fiel
> d. I will NOT take it out to a known Relic Huntin
> g site just yet because it doesn't handle the dens
> e areas of iron contamination. The modest portion
> s, yes, I'll work it, but I have several detectors
> in my team that are the special application tools
> to get the job done there.
>
> As mentioned earlier, I have watched all of the vi
> deos posted so far based on my Nail Board Performa
> nce Test, and I believe the one Steve Moore used i
> n his Garrett video was a bit larger than the actu
> al scale, thus giving a better performance look fo
> r the Apex. I called Garrett on Friday after watc
> hing that video but missed catching Steve. I left
> a message for him that I am going to be sending an
> 'official' done-to-scale Nail Board 'kit' to Steve
> / Garrett first thing Tuesday morning. I'll also
> be sending one to Ander who did the videos using t
> he Apex and Simplex + then the F19. The last rece
> nt years I have gone through a lot of Nail Board '
> kits' I sell to people looking to evaluate their d
> etectors and search coils, and all of them are don
> e to the exact scale as my first encounter that st
> arted me using it. Since they are all to scale, e
> veryone can make a universal test to share results
> because others use the exact same test boars. I h
> ave an order with a new sign makes or another hund
> red or so to be made.
>
> Now for my views on the Garrett deign and marketin
> g folks .... I think they messed up.
>
> I understand the Ace series have been as big selle
> r for them, and no, the Apex is not a waterproof A
> T series model either. But it is 'different' from
> both of those groups and I feel they should NOT ha
> ve made it a part of the Ace series. I'd drop the
> Ace on the logo and future production models and s
> imply make the Apex the start of a new series. Fo
> r one thing, it is not an Ace series when it comes
> to performance. It doesn't share any of the Ace s
> eries coils, and it sets some new marks of innovat
> ion from the folks at Garrett with both selectable
> Multi-frequencies and the Simultaneous Multi-Flex
> and Multi-Salt options. I was a Garrett dealer fr
> om 77 thru '81 because, at that time, I felt they
> had some of the best and most competitive models o
> n the market with their 15 kHz VLF/TR-Disc. Ground
> Hog and compact 50 kHz American S2 TR-Disc. model.
> I did like the performance and features of their S
> corpion Gold Stinger, but not the ergonomics or co
> il choice.
>
> But since '81 I have owned, used and parted with a
> number of their other models because, for me, they
> fell short on performance to a lot of the makes an
> d models I preferred, and sure didn't handle the n
> asty dense Iron Nail locations I frequent. I was
> hoping for some new and improved that was light-we
> ight and well balance, and the Apex is. Something
> with better audio tone response, decent performanc
> e for a lot of urban Coin Hunting applications, an
> d the Apex is. Simply a new unit that was signifi
> cantly different from anything else they offered t
> o set a standard of a new direction for Garrett, a
> nd the Apex has
>
> I think there is a chance we might see some improv
> ed performance in dense trash, but we really can't
> determine that until they get a decent-working sma
> ller-size coil out for the Apex. Something in a r
> ound-shape of about 4½" to 5½", but not bigger tha
> n 6" in diameter. It would be nice if they make a
> Concentric coil for us in that size, too. It does
> n't have to be a DD coil. So far, doing side-by-s
> ide comparisons afield with a few of my favorite d
> etector models for Coin Hunting, taking just four
> of the TID units I keep in my vehicle for daily tr
> avel, the best on the Nail Boar or for hunting a f
> ew tough places I've been ... in order ... were th
> e White's MX-7 w/6½" Concentric coil, the Nokta /
> Makro Simplex + w/5X9½ DD coil, and just about a t
> ie between the Minelab Vanquish 540 w/5X8 DD and G
> arrett Apex w/6X11 DD. Of those two I might give
> the nod to the Apex as it just barely, kind-of, ed
> ges the Vanquish on one sweep route across the Nai
> l Board.
>
> But for Coin Hunting all the typical places from o
> pen to modest litter to really dense modern trash
> around the picnic bowery locations, the Apex has d
> one reasonably well and I am taking into considera
> tion they will bring us a smaller-size coil to bet
> ter handle the foil, pull-tab and other annoying d
> ense litter. The Garrett Apex is-what-it-is. Lik
> e all detectors, it isn't going to satisfy everyon
> e, nor handle every trashy site we encounter. But
> it is going to do just fine for me and many users
> who like it for many places they generally hunt.
> I know my Apex isn't going anywhere except out to
> play, but I also know that will all it has to offe
> r, it hasn't bumped anything out of my arsenal. I
> t's just one more good detector that will do what
> I need when I want it to.
>
> Opinions from Monte


Monte-----How did you find the Apex with the "Viper" coil to do on your nail board test in comparison to the F-19 with the FT 5X10" coil? (both coils being comparatively close to same size)-----Looked to me like the F-19 literally "ate the Apex for lunch" on the test I seen.---------Del

Quote
D&P-OR
Monte-----How did you find the Apex with the "Viper" coil to do on your nail board test in comparison to the F-19 with the FT 5X10" coil? (both coils being comparatively close to same size)----- Looked to me like the F-19 literally "ate the Apex for lunch" on the test I seen.---------Del

Hummm, let me address this question this way:

1.. I own, use and like the Apex, because:
• I like the up-to 5-Tone ID audio design.
• I like the Multi-Flex function and the option of 4 Selectable Frequencies.
• I like the white backlight for times I want or need to use it.
• I like the Iron Audio feature when using a Discriminating set-up.
• I like the compact size, and for a 6X11 DD coil I find the 'Viper' DD to have a light-weight feel, and the unit balances quite well.
• I like the option to quickly set-up a 'Custom' mode, and also be able to quickly access the other 5 modes, if desired, to cross-check some targets.
• I like the quick adjustment for each of the settings.
• I also like the fact that it isn't over-loaded with adjustment features for its price-point.
• I especially like the MS3 wireless Z-Lynk headphones or comfort, audio clarity and nice audio tone, as well as my AT ProPointer which Z-Lynks right up so I hear it well.

2.. I do not care for the mini-jack for corded headphones, but I'm using the wireless anyway so it's no big deal.

3.. I have been enjoying the Apex & 6X11 DD Viper coil for a week now in a number of urban Coin Hunting sites and just a little bit of old-site hunting where Iron nails are not too terribly annoying. The Apex is staying on my Detector Team because it is very light, comfortable, and has adequate performance for most day-to-day applications. Besides, it is 'fun' to use and that's important.

4 I HAVE owned four Fisher F19's after also having both a Gold Bug Pro and Teknetics G2. I liked the F19 a little better than the other Fisher and Teknetics units, except:
• I found that comparable-size elliptical coil to make the detector nose heavy and become more fatiguing.
• I don't care for a red backlight.
• I prefer a detector that has more than just a 2-Tone audio design.
• I didn't like the performance I got in many of the old sites I hunted compared with the other makes and models I had / have.
• There are other reason I put the F19 in the Have Had category and don't own one now. Just not a good detector for me and my wants and needs for where I hunt.

5.. The F19 w/10" elliptical DD coil and 5" DD coil wasn't a match for the detectors I own and use on the Nail Board Performance Test or when being worked side-by-side in some actual hunt sites. On paper and print I liked some of the concept and when the F19 first came out I bought two of them. One to keep a mid-size coil mounted, and the other to have the 5" DD attached for more ferrous-littered places. The 5" DD balanced and felt OK, but overall the F19 fell short of what I anticipated. I acquired two more after I moved to Vale five years ago, but even giving them a 2nd chance I still didn't care for them and sold or traded them away.

6.. Now to the Nail Board and testing I did this past week, and doing a memory recall of the last experiences I had with the F19:
• I don't think the F19 "ate the Apex for lunch" and in my own use in the past with four of the F19's, it was 'OK' but not good enough for me to hang onto one.
• Many, perhaps most, of the old sites I hunt where Iron Nails bound it is also very brushy, weedy, have a lot of sagebrush around, and certainly a lot of building rubble. In those environments you will get better success if you use a slow and methodical sweep speed to work in and around all the debris, structures and vegetation.
• Using the Nail Board as an example, that was an actual observed find on top of the ground at the school-hill in the ghost ton of Frisco Utah. You could look around and see Iron nails everywhere. If nails are so abundant that there can be four of them surrounding an Indian Head cent, then that's even more reason to use a slow-and-methodical sweep speed because a fast sweep technique will be encountering even more nails before and after the desired target and that can be too much for most circuitry designs to deal with and process out the ferrous response.

Closing thoughts: I do like some of the Fisher and Teknetics brand detectors, but the F19 isn't one of them. Nor the Teknetics or Bounty Hunter versions of that circuitry. I'm not saying they are bad, I am just saying they are not for me. There have been a lot of detectors for each of us to select from, and own the ones I like, the ones I think are 'fun' to use, and they just happen to be some that perform well for me. Some people don't like the Nokta FORS CoRe or FORS relic, and other might not care for a non-display or non-Tone ID Tesoro Bandido II µMAX or Silver Sabre µMAX or even the White's MX7.. But I do, and all of these can out-perform the F19. Matter of fact, the Nokta / Makro Simplex + w/a comparable 5X9½ DD can probably do what an F19 can, but it offers more adjustment features and search modes and Tone ID options.

As for the Apex, it handles the Nail Board as well as the Minelab Vanquish 540 w/5X8 DD, and that's not a bragging statement. It's a tough test and a good part of that is due to search coil size and shape with the adjacent Iron Nails. I am hoping Garrett brings out a smaller, round-shaped coil of about 4½" to 5½", and no bigger than 6" diameter, for the Apex. I have a feeling it will improve the Apex performance on such a nail test. Not all detectors have to be good on a NB test to make them a good general-purpose use detector. The Apex is better than some, yet falls short of others since they do not have a good coil to work with their circuitry design on such a test. .... Yet.

Monte

Very good reply Monty. Thank you. With your nail board test I was find also one more issue. Overall performance effect depends from kind of coin... with silver will be different than with copper. Some YouTube showman’s use 3D tests. But for me I prefers your.

Quote
Shelton
Very good reply Monty. Thank you. With your nail board test I was find also one more issue. Overall performance effect depends from kind of coin... with silver will be different than with copper. Some YouTube showman’s use 3D tests. But for me I prefers your.

Shelton, 'Thank You' for the kind words.

I do several different Good-Target / Trash-Target testing when I am evaluating any new-to-me detector, with some using modern non-ferrous trash, such as foil and pull-tabs and pry-tabs, and some using ferrous junk such as Iron Nails, washers, rusty tin, etc. Also, I do some testing for quick-response and recovery-time, separation in ferrous and non-ferrous mixed targets, and a few using a 3-D test scenario. However ... the Number 1 test I put any make or model detector and search coil to is the 2-D challenge using my Nail Board Performance Test. Generally, if a detector struggles on that test, they also seem to have a tough time handling several other 'natural-encounter' type tests as well.

Naturally, I always keep in mind not to judge a detector alone on performance until I have worked two or more different search coils on it because a coil's size, type and physical configuration can play a big roll in overall detector performance.

Monte

Enjoyed reading your post Monte as I always do but this one statement surprised me "I moved to Vale five years ago". It only seems like last year when you moved.

Del must still be in bed. He normally is a quick responder.

El