Tarsacci shaft (aftermarket)?

NASA-Tom --

I agree. This one, from a "shaft-build" perspective, has caught me off guard, for sure...

I'll just blame it on Dew and Bill. Dew started it, and then Bill "piled on."

Steve

steveg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NASA-Tom --
>
> I agree. This one, from a "shaft-build" perspecti
> ve, has caught me off guard, for sure...
>
> I'll just blame it on Dew and Bill. Dew started i
> t, and then Bill "piled on."
>
> Steve

Lol yeah it may be money well spent or not ... But this is one detector that I do feel is worth trying something like this to see IF it can be improved a little. Can't wait.

Today while I was hunting on the beach with the Nox, I finally ran into someone who was operating a Tarsacci. He was nice enough to take the time to answer some questions and let me take it for a short spin as I am very interested in this unit for beach hunting. Due to the short time I got to use the Tarsacci, I cannot comment on the performance but the ergonomics of this unit. As I am only 6-1 and shrinking, I noticed the Tarsacci being short and difficult to swing comfortably, limiting coverage on each swing. The cuff also seemed short and did not appear to be adjustable. I feel that if the cuff was closer to my elbow than the middle of my forearm it would feel more comfortable and I would have more leverage. I am also right handed and feel like the pin pointing button should be in the Ground Balance button location. Again this was my quick five minute observation OPINION. I believe if Steve can make an extended shaft it would be a game changer for me and others. Good Luck Steve.

Kingfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Today while I was hunting on the beach with the No
> x, I finally ran into someone who was operating a
> Tarsacci. He was nice enough to take the time to a
> nswer some questions and let me take it for a shor
> t spin as I am very interested in this unit for be
> ach hunting. Due to the short time I got to use th
> e Tarsacci, I cannot comment on the performance bu
> t the ergonomics of this unit. As I am only 6-1 an
> d shrinking, I noticed the Tarsacci being short an
> d difficult to swing comfortably, limiting coverag
> e on each swing. The cuff also seemed short and di
> d not appear to be adjustable. I feel that if the
> cuff was closer to my elbow than the middle of my
> forearm it would feel more comfortable and I would
> have more leverage. I am also right handed and fee
> l like the pin pointing button should be in the Gr
> ound Balance button location. Again this was my qu
> ick five minute observation OPINION. I believe if
> Steve can make an extended shaft it would be a gam
> e changer for me and others. Good Luck Steve.

I agree with pretty much everything. I wish the arm cuff was adjustable as I hate where it's mounted . It reminds me of garrett ace series and at series. Maybe Steve could make a arm cuff extension just use a very large piece of like 3" carbon fiber tubing and make it mount into the one we have or replace ours ?? Idk .

Kingfish -- thanks for the thoughts; they are helpful. Sometimes those "first impressions" are good to hear, as I think we sometimes, over time, "get used to" the shortcomings of our equipment, and "learn to accept" them. But -- your "unvarnished" thoughts there, before you have had any time to put a more "positive" spin on things, is useful, from my perspective. And appreciated.

Thanks! I'll do my best to offer whatever small improvement the otherwise well-designed machine permits...

Bill, I'll check that idea out, and see if there's anything that could maybe be done there...

Steve



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2021 04:14AM by steveg.

Sounds good Steve thanks

The upper shaft would have to be lengthened to allow the cuff to move further back if thats what you are saying. Otherwise the battery cap is in the way and would be a pain to work around. Oddly the machine felt a little awkward at first..... but now if i go back to the Nox that baby feel awkard and HEAVIER. The 12" coil will be a nice addition to coverage. Thus far there hasnt been many machines we havent brainstormed and in some way made slight improvements... anything from a straight shaft for the Xcal, improved headphones, better cuffs, Joes battery for the AQ.... to Steves shaft for the Nox with counterweights and locks. Aftermarket changes in some ways reduces the constant improvement/cost to the designer as well. I mentioned the button being a little small for changing from AM to disc/mixed mode too with gloves on. But ive gotten used to it. Being short and having shorter forearms sometimes i guess is a good thing. Its all working toward a better mouse trap.

Thats it blame it on the Dew.... Mr. Quality Control. Its great to have talented thinkers among us whos willing to make things happen like you Steve.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2021 11:19AM by dewcon4414.

Kingfish.........Hmmmmmmmmm. The arm cuff location thing. I never really noticed. I am SOOOOOooooooooo performance-oriented..... I never really noticed that the (obvious/in-my-face) arm cuff is in the middle of my arm.......and NOT back towards my elbow.......where it should be. This dramatically affects fulcrum leverage/strength.......making the detector 'feel heavier' to swing. If arm cuff was further aft...... the unit would give the user much greater mechanical fulcrum advantage.
(((My problem is...................... I'll swing a pole-mounted battleship (CZ-20/21) all day long...... and never notice its weight........as long as the 'performance' is worthy))).

An arm cuff could be made with wings so to speak. Could be an open style with it extending back towards elbow with a 2-3" cuff under the arm but open down above battery cap. Similar to a cantilever scope mount on a rifle or shotgun. 3D printer could make one or cut from carbon fiber . I think it could be done. Or even aluminum.

The MDT measures 9-1/2" from the bend to the back of the arm cuff.. . .. so does my f-75 (fully adjusted) and my CZ3d. So it is normal for me. Too much further back we would have plastic rubbing the elbow. Basstrackerman has a good idea about extensions for those long men. .. me, I'm only 5'-10" tall and 192lbs, average build. Oh yea, all muscle, too.

It could also be done by cutting the carbon fiber shaft on tarsacci between grip and battery and adding extension. But that would compromise waterproof value ?? Maybe? I'm 6'4" size 17 shoes so I need it to fit close as possible to elbow soni can extend the coil out past my feet lol.

basstrackerman ....... that's a good idea. It's called :"swept-wings".

Dew --

Thank you for the kind words! I appreciate it!

Steve

Hey Steve are you buying a tarsacci? Just curious ifnyou do look into that arm cuff and see if one could be made offset by 2" . Maybe like F75 arm cuff?

Bill,

Considering it; I likely will at some point, not sure if it will be immediate though.

I am not familiar with the F75 cuff; I will have to check it out.

Steve

Steve, put me on the list for a Tarsacci shaft. After spending the time putting my new coil on the old shaft it makes so much more sense to just have that coil on its own shaft. (easier for testing purposes and swapping coils).Wnen they are ready, let me know!

Cliff

Cliff -- yes sir, will do!

Thank you!

Steve

Steve...... curious as to how you are coming along. Did you get all of the parts for measurement? Does it look do'able?

Hi all!

I'm working my way through the Tarsacci shaft design. I've designed a "clevis" -- the lower plastic head at the bottom of the lower rod, that will fit the 19.75mm O.D. / 18.00mm I.D. tubes I'd use for the lower rod. I tried to keep it similar to the Tarsacci head in overall design; I'll attach a pic of the design (the part "exterior" to the tube; the interior portion is "proprietary," LOL).

Anyway, I think my tube manufacturers can do a "tapered" tube, so tapering it quickly at one end from 24.9mm (the "Tarsacci" middle shaft diameter, needed to fit the upper Tarsacci cam lock) down to 22.15mm (the diameter needed to fit into the upper side of my cam lock) seems like it will not be an issue.

Thus far, the biggest hurdle has been that spring button. I want it in stainless steel, due to salt-water use (and preferably marine-grade stainless), but no one has one of the size I need, "in stock," in stainless. That means I'd have to have them custom-produced, which means a big expense, and they'd need to be purchased in large quantity. I can't use the Tarsacci button directly, as I'll likely need a taller button "height" than what is used on the Tarsacci shaft. Reason being, my tube will be thicker, at the very upper end, in terms of wall thickness, than the Tarsacci tube. The overall I.D. of my middle shaft tube will be around 20.15mm all the way through, meaning 1mm wall thickness through most of the tube, BUT -- up there at the top, at the "larger diameter" portion that needs to fit into the Tarsacci cam lock, it would be about 2.35mm wall thickness. Thus, the button needs to be a bit "taller" than is used on the Tarsacci, due to the extra tube wall thickness.

So, one option is to use regular steel -- which would make them very available, and thus very inexpensive. But, that means they WILL corrode over time, requiring replacement. I could always keep plenty in stock, and send a couple of extras with each shaft. BUT -- that's not ideal, and not the way I like to do things. I like top-quality stuff, using proper materials. So, it's a dilemma, as using the "right" material here is proving to be a difficult objective, given the manufacturing limitations when talking about such a small quantity of these buttons that would be needed, relatively speaking...

Thoughts?

Steve







Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2021 05:35AM by steveg.

NASA-Tom,

It's funny; I was working on that last post for a couple of hours, distracted with other things while working on it. When I finally posted it, I then saw that in the interim, you had asked about my progress -- such that it almost made my post appear tailor-made to answering your questions! LOL!

So, while I didn't directly address your questions in my post (as I hadn't seen your questions until I finished), I think the answers are contained therein, nonetheless!

Steve

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Steve...... curious as to how you are coming along
> . Did you get all of the parts for measurement? Do
> es it look do'able?

steveg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi all!
>
> I'm working my way through the Tarsacci shaft desi
> gn. I've designed a "clevis" -- the lower plastic
> head at the bottom of the lower rod, that will fit
> the 19.75mm O.D. / 18.00mm I.D. tubes I'd use for
> the lower rod. I tried to keep it similar to the
> Tarsacci head in overall design; I'll attach a pic
> of the design (the part "exterior" to the tube; th
> e interior portion is "proprietary," LOL).
>
> Anyway, I think my tube manufacturers can do a "ta
> pered" tube, so tapering it quickly at one end fro
> m 24.9mm (the "Tarsacci" middle shaft diameter, ne
> eded to fit the upper Tarsacci cam lock) down to 2
> 2.15mm (the diameter needed to fit into the upper
> side of my cam lock) seems like it will not be an
> issue.
>
> Thus far, the biggest hurdle has been that spring
> button. I want it in stainless steel, due to salt
> -water use (and preferably marine-grade stainless)
> , but no one has one of the size I need, "in stock
> ," in stainless. That means I'd have to have them
> custom-produced, which means a big expense,
> and they'd need to be purchased in large quantity.
> I can't use the Tarsacci button directly, as I'll
> likely need a taller button "height" than what is
> used on the Tarsacci shaft. Reason being, my tube
> will be thicker, at the very upper end, in terms o
> f wall thickness, than the Tarsacci tube. The over
> all I.D. of my middle shaft tube will be around 20
> .15mm all the way through, meaning 1mm wall thickn
> ess through most of the tube, BUT -- up there at t
> he top, at the "larger diameter" portion that need
> s to fit into the Tarsacci cam lock, it would be a
> bout 2.35mm wall thickness. Thus, the button need
> s to be a bit "taller" than is used on the Tarsacc
> i, due to the extra tube wall thickness.
>
> So, one option is to use regular steel -- which wo
> uld make them very available, and thus very inexpe
> nsive. But, that means they WILL corrode over tim
> e, requiring replacement. I could always keep ple
> nty in stock, and send a couple of extras with eac
> h shaft. BUT -- that's not ideal, and not the way
> I like to do things. I like top-quality stuff, us
> ing proper materials. So, it's a dilemma, as usin
> g the "right" material here is proving to be a dif
> ficult objective, given the manufacturing limitati
> ons when talking about such a small quantity of th
> ese buttons that would be needed, relatively speak
> ing...
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Steve
>
>

midalake,

I don't see any new text, in your post above, just the quoted text from my post...

Am I missing it?

Thanks!

Steve

Steve, I've used just about every water detector out there and with the exception of the earlier Minelab Excalibur spring buttons, ALL have rusted to some degree. My Tarsacci buttons are just about gone after 2 years of use (actually one has been replaced already with one saved from an older Minelab machine. My Fisher AQ limited (approx 6 months old) already shows rusting on the button.....(Yes I do rinse off every hunt)....

Not that this post helps your decision in any way, just wanted to let you know it is the nature of the beast when salt water hunting.....corrosion happens! Of course, I'm sure you know everything I've posted here!

Do what you feel is best and we will deal with it.

Cliff

Check out Kayak paddle pins, maybe the button is longer. They are stainless.

Why does it have to be a spring button? Unless you constantly break down your unit, can it be something else, like a SS bolt and nut? A thru pin with a cotter or clevis pin. Got to be alternatives.. .. . It is a custom shaft, correct?

Is nylon an alternative? as a thru bolt?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2021 08:33AM by ozzie.

Cliff --

Thank you for the feedback. I really appreciate the thoughts. However, some good news -- I do believe that I have found a supplier for stainless steel ones in the right size, but it is 304 stainless, not 316. Not perfect, but acceptable in my mind; being 304, it will still corrode eventually, it's just the nature of the beast, as you alluded to. Bbut at least being stainless it will hold up far better than regular spring steel. And I'll make sure to have enough of them on hand, for folks that might need them for replacements for my shaft, the Tarsacci, or even other machines with the same size button (1/4").

Ozzie --

Yep, kayak paddle pins are among my searches, but I just hadn't found them in the right size (though again, I may have found success, this evening).

You are correct that it wouldn't HAVE to be a spring button (in fact, I'd argue that with a high-quality, heavy-duty, adjustable-clamping-tension cam lock as is used on the Tarsacci, the button is probably not needed at all, but we've had that discussion already in this thread, LOL). Anyway, the issue with a through-bolt or whatever, is that the Tarsacci unit uses the single-button version of spring clip (not the double-button version) in the middle shaft, and so there is (I am presuming) only a single corresponding button hole in one side the upper shaft tube. So, to use a something such as a nylon through bolt, would mean each customer having to drill a second hole in their stock Tarsacci upper shaft, and I imagine many would not wish to do so, for a number of reasons. I think this IS what Dewcon does (drills another hole, and uses a through-bolt), but I figure some would not want to do that, to their stock upper shaft. If it was ME, drilling the holes in the shafts I am producing, and then shipping them to customers that way, it would be fine. But since it would require drilling in the TARSACCI upper shaft, that's another story. That's why I'm working so hard to keep it being a single spring button.

Steve



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2021 08:52AM by steveg.

We have discussed those spring buttons Steve. My option is to use a SS bolt on my upper. Ive not had an issue with the middle so if i dont have one im ok. What happens to us water guys is we get pushed around out there a lot. Standing on one leg with the scoop.... we put the detector in a position a bit away from us but.... unfortunately sometimes we end up leaning on it. Just our body weight pushed down on it. That over time can cause the shaft to slip in that lock because a lot of times we are just pushing down but we are twisting it as well. For me a single spring clip wont stop the side ways movement if the lock gives at all. CF then wears. I dont travel with mine therefore i dont break it down every time either...... but most certainly do rinse it. The machine has top notch locks IMO.... but i can show you my upper still has a good bit of wear and ive used epoxy to build it back up.... that and a SS bolt has stopped both up and down and side ways movements. As a seller.... what you do about that clip is up to you and the cost. Not everyone works a machine like me, Cliff and a few others i know. Glad to see you seem to be making progress..... looking forward to it.

Thanks for the input, Dew. I'm much happier now that I can get them in at least 304 stainless. I talked to the supplier in more detail; he says they usually have this size in stock, as it's a size they regularly produce. He can offer them to me for a reasonable price, AND -- the good news is, I can buy them 50 or 100 at a time, so he isn't like many suppliers that will only do a production run for you if you are buying 1000 pieces (or, for some suppliers, it's 10,000 pieces)!

I heard back from my plastics producer also -- and I'm going to do a small run of 10 of the lower rod plastic pieces the first time, to test/prototype. I THINK they will be good to go, as they are not all that different than the other ones I have made for other units, but still, I don't want to order too many on the first run, just in case there's a dimension that is a bit "off" for whatever reason and would need tweaked.

So, I think that was the last "hurdle." But -- it was irrelevant to you, since you use the through bolts.

Yep, making good progress. We'll hit a slow-down when it comes time to have tubes produced, and we are just about there. I'm finishing up a few details with Bill/basstrackerman, and then I'll initiate tube production.

With any luck at all, I'm building the first small batch of "prototypes" in 6 weeks...

Steve

Steve....... it's called "synchronicity". My entire life is premised off of this...... to a euphoric extreme. (((You could ask Aaron about it))).

A SS spring-clip button..... that would last approx 3 years..... would suit a proper (read: nominal) service-life. Yet......... I am certain the SS 304 would last about 6/7 years.......(using Dew, Cliff, Todd, Tom & Larry submerged saltwater application/usage).
And ..... (word-to-the-wise)...... it is now official: Tarsacci will (confirmed) be around for the long-haul. They JUST officially graduated through (completed) the "Initial Start-Up" phase. (((Statistically speaking: Over 90% of Start-Up companies fail this phase......and file Chapter-11/bankruptcy))). [[[ I call this = Tarsacci has 'launched'...... the Solid Rocket Boosters have separated...... and now is on a Orbital Trajectory flight path}}}.

steveg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> midalake,
>
> I don't see any new text, in your post above, just
> the quoted text from my post...
>
> Am I missing it?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Steve

Yes there was supposed to be????
I have seen these spring clips in plastic. Not sure about their last power though? They would not rust!!! Dave

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Steve....... it's called "synchronicity". My entir
> e life is premised off of this...... to a euphoric
> extreme. (((You could ask Aaron about it))).
>
> A SS spring-clip button..... that would last appro
> x 3 years..... would suit a proper (read: nominal)
> service-life. Yet......... I am certain the SS 304
> would last about 6/7 years.......(using Dew, Cliff
> , Todd, Tom & Larry submerged saltwater applicatio
> n/usage).
> And ..... (word-to-the-wise)...... it is now offic
> ial: Tarsacci will (confirmed) be around for the l
> ong-haul. They JUST officially graduated through (
> completed) the "Initial Start-Up" phase. (((Statis
> tically speaking: Over 90% of Start-Up companies f
> ail this phase......and file Chapter-11/bankruptcy
> ))). [[[ I call this = Tarsacci has 'launched'....
> .. the Solid Rocket Boosters have separated......
> and now is on a Orbital Trajectory flight path}}}.

This is amazing news!! Great to hear tarsacci will be around for a while! Now if I could figure out a way to get the arm cuff closer to my elbow. That would make it feel so much better.