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Looking for opinions (iron "falsing")

Posted by steveg 
Looking for opinions (iron "falsing")
June 01, 2021 06:13AM
Hi all!

I was having a chat with D&P-OR (Del) this evening, regarding the Equinox, and square nails, and "falsing." While I'm sure I am not alone, nails -- bent, rusty ones, yes, but ESPECIALLY old square nails -- have remained the most vexing problem for me as an old coin hunter.

The issue for me is that when trying to hunt for the REALLY deep coins, at the old-dirt sites I have when back home vacationing in PA, I find it quite difficult to discern at times a "good-sounding" square nail, from a deep silver coin. For years and years and years, I simply told myself that it's me, that I need more experience -- more time working in square-nail infested sites...and to some degree I still think that's true. Since there are essentially NO square nails here in Oklahoma, I don't get much practice with them, and so it's hard to train my ears to the "expert" level, in terms of hearing/recognizing any "subtleties" that might be there. I just don't get the number of "reps" that I would like, spending 95% of my detecting time in Oklahoma. But, with that said, I do feel that after over a decade of serious, intense, frequent detecting, including hundreds of hours in PA at these square-nail-littered sites, that I should have enough experience at this point, to do a better job than I do.

Right now, of course, I primarily swing the Equinox. And for me, anyway, I find that the Equinox struggles to give my ears much hint, in some cases, as to which target is simply a "good-sounding" square nail, versus which is a deep silver coin. There are a good number -- more than I would think ought to be the case -- of square nails that simply sound really, really good. I'm not talking about the ones that sound just a little bit "too good to pass up," but which I know are likely to be nails (but dig them anyway, "just in case"). I'm talking about ones where I am at least 50 percent confident, or more, that it's going to be a silver coin.

Now, OF COURSE, I can control the number of square nails I dig to SOME degree. On one hand, I CAN set the "mental discriminator" high enough, to avoid most of them. But, that level of "mental discrimination" is "too high" for me to be comfortable that I'm not missing the deep/iffy/subtle coins. On the other hand, the more I try to "stretch," lowering the "mental discrimination" down and really "reaching" for that deep coin, the more square nails I dig. I know this is probably not just limited to me -- that it's something that others experience, as well. But, separate from this, no matter HOW high I might set the "mental discriminator," there are simply some deep square nails, that for me, sound DARNED good...and a few of them to where I am so shocked that it's a square nail in my plug, that I continue to dig -- CONVINCED that there is something else in the hole, that NO WAY did that nail sound that good...

So, this leads me to my question. How much of this could be MACHINE-related or PLATFORM-related? Now, I want to be clear that I wouldn't trade my Minelabs for the world, as deep coin hunters. BUT -- at the same time, I have to wonder if FBS, and particularly Multi-IQ, are more often prone to report a square nail to my ears as a "silver coin," than perhaps another platform or machine might be?

So along those lines, for those folks here with lots of experience running many different machines over the years, and SPECIFICALLY hunting old coins, in square-nail-littered sites, what machines would you say did the best job with the SPECIFIC task of properly calling a square nail IRON, and NOT a "sliver coin." Said another way, which machine or platform do you feel gives the most reliable "clues" or "tells" that allow you to figure out which targets are the most likely to be just square nails, and which are most likely to be a high conductor?

I guess my bottom line is that after this many years, and digging what I consider to be WAAAAY too many targets where I was reasonably confident it was a high conductor, and instead was a small square nail, I would have thought that by now, I'd have enough expertise to minimize the number of times that happens. And maybe I have; maybe I HAVE "minimized" it; maybe this is "as good as it gets." One rather frustrating thing, is that I bought the 6" EQX coil SPECIFICALLY hoping to get some help in that regard, and yet I actually find it to be WORSE -- it seems to have even MORE of an affinity for deep square nails, than the stock coil does. I have some interest in trying the new Coiltek 5x10, to see if its affinity for square nails is a bit less than the Minelab coils, but I expect it's not, and I don't want to spend $250 or whatever on a "hope."

But anyway, I have to believe there's a way for me to "do better" in this one specific aspect of deep coin hunting. Is more experience the answer, OR -- is it possible that am I unknowingly handicapping myself IN THIS SPECIFIC NUANCED DETAIL -- by using FBS and Multi-IQ almost EXCLUSIVELY, for the past 10 years? Obviously, again, I am NOT denigrating FBS/Multi-IQ. They have proven time and again to me to be the best deep-coin hunters that exist. But in this ONE SPECIFIC application (discerning square nail vs. silver coin), is there a machine/platform that would allow me to become more skilled at this discernment, from a site-specific perspective? Thoughts?

Steve
Re: Looking for opinions (iron "falsing")
June 01, 2021 08:32AM
Deus, I live in western PA and I have tried many different detectors in the iron infested and square nail infested spots and out of all of them the Deus had the least falsing. Regarding the Nox I have been able to reduce the falsing problem by dropping my sensitivity to 20 when in the heavy nails plus I run my iron bias up to 6 using field 1 mode, I also run my recovery at 6 in heavy nails. It is very hard to get deep targets in heavy iron so I lean more toward unmasking. I use the 6 inch coil and the high recovery speed to offset the high iron bias setting. Thats what I do , I an sure others may disagree.
Re: Looking for opinions (iron "falsing")
June 01, 2021 09:14AM
I still dig deep nails. I'm using the MDT these days. Many times when I'm itching for a good signal, I'll go after one that ends up with iron at the side of the hole, especially the point of a nail. Now the little bent almost "C" shape nails. .. .. they sound good on all my machines. The iron is never in the center with the hole no matter how precise I pinpoint. What does the hint to me? Is there something to be gained by that knowledge?
Many detectorists say the sound is different. .. . I cant tell the difference, and I've tried many times with every machine that passed my way. So. .. I'll continue to waste my time on deep and or bent nails.

A thrill though is. .. when I get a good deep signal, I pull the big plug out, the hand held pinpointer only sounds off in the center of the hole. .. that's when my pulse quickens.
Re: Looking for opinions (iron "falsing")
June 01, 2021 10:58AM
I agree with the OP. The 6 inch coil makes the problem worse. I stopped using it all together. The only way I can get close to being able to tell nails from good is by circling the target. Listening and watching the bouncing numbers. Combine that with the horseshoe button and I can usually tell. I still dig some. As mentioned when I start digging and the target is off to the side...well then I pretty much know. As I always say....if it was easy there would be more competition than targets. I live in PA. I know the amount of iron on old farms. The easy stuff is usually gone. Finding silver is still much easier than finding that elusive gold coin.
Re: Looking for opinions (iron "falsing")
June 01, 2021 02:39PM
I don't get to hunt pure old iron sites a lot so I'm no expert on them in particular, but these are my settings and methodology when I do. Also I don't use the 6" coil much. I find it most useful in going back over spots as a last resort slow when I have a lot of time. Just yesterday I hunted a site in the oldest part of town that has both very old iron as well as more recent iron, and also gobs and gobs of modern trash. The number of targets is insane. Iron grunts are constant. I got a civil war button and a 1892 IHP yesterday. It may sound like I'm boasting, and maybe I am, but if I can pull good targets out that site with decent regularity I can pull good targets out most anywhere.

My settings for Equinox 800 11" coil in iron infested sites:
Park2- I personally dig less iron with it than when I use Park1.
Make sure you have a good ground balance for the site.
Iron Bias F2-0
Recovery depends on how thick is the iron. In general never below 4. Never above 6.
5 tones
Horseshoe button always on. Iron volume set below non-ferrous volumes.
Sensitivity mostly depends on how thick the iron is. I might run 15 in the thickest spots. I want to light up as little surrounding iron as possible. I bump up as I move away from the worst of it.

I circle all targets I think might be nonferrous. Once I think I'm centered over the target I wiggle and circle. I don't want to see the I.D. jump to above mid 30's or see negative numbers while circling the target. I don't want to see my center suddenly be off to the side either. Just my opinion, but if your hunting old sites with no modern trash and lots of iron your going to have to dig some iron or risk passing up good targets. I have found there is such a fine line between iron and nonferrous when uncertain dig. Circling and watching numbers keeps the ratio of ferrous to non-ferrous manageable to me. I'm not wearing myself out or wasting a lot of time. I don't think I dig an inordinate amount of misidentified iron.
Re: Looking for opinions (iron "falsing")
June 01, 2021 02:54PM
Using single frequency also helps with iron falsing.
With single frequency you can turn the sensitivity way up. It helps me when I have that constant iron tone and getting falsing in multi mode. I'm using the 5x10 coil.
Re: Looking for opinions (iron "falsing")
June 01, 2021 03:48PM
In Ohio the Deus was/is the best for me at identifying iron , square nails etc. Now in Alabama it seems the same is true. Old coins at depth and square nails at depth sound very similar with many detectors but for me the Deus is better in these and many other situations.
Re: Looking for opinions (iron "falsing")
June 01, 2021 05:41PM
In my old park the square nails are hit and miss. But the equinox 800 will surely find the deep ones no doubt. I think it's a ground balance issue possibly. When it does this it's pretty much impossible to tell a coin from nail. I've tried high iron bias low and zero. Zero works just as good as any. Only thing that works is lowering the sense a bit. Or you can bring your deus with if ya have one and it will properly ID the iron nails. Deus with 11x13" vs equinox 11" deus properly ID it nox called it silver dime. Just in my ground. I thought about digging a deeper hole and ground balancing in to see if that made a difference. Idk seems like a GB issue to me.
Re: Looking for opinions (iron "falsing")
June 01, 2021 06:37PM
Interesting post. I have hunted along-side 800 users, in ghost-townsy spots, and yes: They get fooled by certain nails more often than a machine like my Exp II. Which effortlessly ignores ALL iron. On the other hand, they get some conductors hiding under and around the iron, that my Exp. II wouldn't have heard. So I guess there's no perfect machine :/
Re: Looking for opinions (iron "falsing")
June 05, 2021 08:37PM
Now that the forum is back up, I can thank everyone for their responses. Some good info contained herein.

Lots of votes here for the Deus as being the best at this, which is interesting.

Ozzie, I agree with everything you posted. I have -- at least for now -- accepted that IF there is a different sound between a "good-sounding" square nail, and a deep silver coin, that I can't hear it, so I'm resigned to dig...and let my excitement increase ONLY after I pop the plug, and my pinpointer shows the target in the center of the hole. I can totally relate to what you are saying there.

Rick, interesting that you mentioned single frequencies on the EQX. I've never hunted that way, I've only occasionally/briefly checked a target on the EQX with a higher frequency, but otherwise, it's all multi, all the time. HOWEVER, I have been talking with Del that I'm going to experiment at a particular very old church site that I like to hunt in PA (I am headed there next week), but conducting a full hunt in 20 kHz/40kHz on the EQX, to see if there is any improvement. I am familiar enough with the site, that if high single freq. helps with the square nail "falsing" to any appreciable degree, it should become apparent. It will take some time, I expect, to get used to the nuanced behavior of the machine running it different than I am used to, but hopefully the "learning curve" is short, and I can make a reasonable assessment.

Do you feel that in general, the 5x10 offers you any advantages, Rick, specifically pertaining to "iron falsing," as compared to the "worse than stock coil" 6 incher (I'm glad to hear that you feel the same way, Goodmore; tells me I'm not imagining things).

Thanks all for the input!

Steve
Re: Looking for opinions (iron "falsing")
June 06, 2021 02:15AM
I haven't used the 5x10 or 6" coils in iron trash much. I mostly lake hunt now.

I went to old school site that is loaded with iron. I was getting a lot emi so I tried single frequency and 15 khz was quiet. In single frequency you can max sensitivity with no problem in my mild ground. I was surprised how nice it ran in the iron. There isn't much of a depth loss neither in my mild ground. On my test coins 4 khz hits them better than multi. I'm starting to like single frequency and will be trying 40 khz in the water tomorrow.

I would like to hear your thoughts on single frequency in iron when you try it.
Re: Looking for opinions (iron "falsing")
June 06, 2021 12:19PM
Steve:
The "percentile" of body-rotation around a deep iron object.,.,.,.,.,., is the primary aid in the determinant of dig/no-dig----go/no-go...... decision making process.
VDI means nothing.
Audio means everything. (((Intelligibility-conveyance thereof))).
F2 = '0' presents a bit more falsing ........... yet; MUCH, MUCH greater audible intelligibility conveying factor.
The preamble..........body...........and post-amble........ of the audio.,.,.,.,.,.,., is also a tell-all for signature-to-hull emitter correlation.....(of suspect target). How 'smeared' ..... or how 'crisp'.,.,.,.,., the pre, body, post-amble: .......is 'key'.

I dig very little deep iron with M-IQ Operating System..........as compared to (my very own inception) CZ-3D platform. ((( I just need to pay more attention as to: "why"..........so I can teach/convey.......even further......to a higher plateau ))).
Gen-1 Multi-IQ presents some fairly major attributes. Gen-2 will take M-IQ even further.
GMP/Deus platform(s) are tremendous (merely by way-of-comparison) in iron.
MDT audio in iron is also euphorically/stunningly tremendous; yet, VDI is horrific.
Nokta Impact (on 20Khz) is also tremendously conveying in iron.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2021 12:28PM by NASA-Tom.
Re: Looking for opinions (iron "falsing")
June 06, 2021 12:57PM
Oh boy, a Gen 2.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2021 12:59PM by tnsharpshooter.
Re: Looking for opinions (iron "falsing")
June 06, 2021 03:35PM
I'm certainly looking forward to that...

Steve

tnsharpshooter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh boy, a Gen 2.
Re: Looking for opinions (iron "falsing")
June 06, 2021 06:02PM
steveg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Lots of votes here for the Deus as being the best
> at this, which is interesting.
>
>

The Deus might be satisfactory at ID'ing and rejecting singular nails. But I would say that larger iron (I-bolts, cast-iron fragments, etc....) will "ring the bells of Notre Dame" on the Deus eye rolling smiley

I realize that the Deus faithful have their audio tricks to tell the difference. However, I continue to wonder if the "devil might be in the details" : If you employ the tricks to discern those larger iron objects, then so-too might you be passing conductive targets underneath them, that are attempting to be masked. In other words, if the Deus user is waiting for a "clear line of sight" to the object, for the audio-tricks to work, then .... heck .... SO TOO do a host of other machines *work just fine* when there is a clear line of site.
Re: Looking for opinions (iron "falsing")
June 06, 2021 06:24PM
Tom_in_CA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> steveg Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > Lots of votes here for the Deus as being the bes
> t
> > at this, which is interesting.
> >
> >
>
> The Deus might be satisfactory at ID'ing and rejec
> ting singular nails. But I would say that larger
> iron (I-bolts, cast-iron fragments, etc....) will
> "ring the bells of Notre Dame" on the Deus eye rolling smiley
>
> I realize that the Deus faithful have their audio
> tricks to tell the difference. However, I continu
> e to wonder if the "devil might be in the details"
> : If you employ the tricks to discern those larg
> er iron objects, then so-too might you be passing
> conductive targets underneath them, that are attem
> pting to be masked. In other words, if the Deus
> user is waiting for a "clear line of sight" to the
> object, for the audio-tricks to work, then .... he
> ck .... SO TOO do a host of other machines *work j
> ust fine* when there is a clear line of site.


You take a deus with either LF or HF coil to old site with lot of iron and nails.
Take your XS explorer, CTX, and others.
Try to get signal on deus located signals.
Even use.11" coils on all.
I got a pretty good idea what the end results will be.
Now deus HF coil will beat the Deus LF coil , still LF coil worthy.
And EQX will be rated high too. Higher against deus LF coil vs hf coil.

In a dig everything nonferrous in older site with a tuned Deus user using HF coil. Hold on you are in for a ride.
Tom, you are focused too much on big iron.
Big iron destroys all detectors really.
But what about medium, small and smaller?
You ain't going to find or get nonferrous signal or target under rail road spike or horseshoe with Deus or anything else.
Nice thing is deus will tell you what's big iron. And user can get away from and go to other areas / spots where it is deemed detectable.

One has to use Deus a lot in old sites, to be able to appreciate.

Cheers.

Reckon you will ever be weaned off of XS Explorer?
Just maybe winking smiley

To show you what can happen.
A true story here.
The big old site I test detectors and hunt in.
This one target (we'll call it a target) I hit this thing with Etrac, CTX with stock coils and smaller coils. Etrac even had a 10x12 self coil on it on some hints where I hit this thingy.
This area has big iron, all sizes and shapes. Loaded. Some areas has less bigger iron than others. Anyway both etrac and CTX gave Huey signals when swept. Sounded like a lot of gibberish. Sounded lot like how detector sounds when coming over 250 year old buried iron of all shapes and sizes. This went on for few years. I even hit this thingy with other detector models. Makros and Noktas again a using multiple sized coils when sweeping this thingy, And yes even the deus as newer user of Deus. I wouldn't dig. Just sounded like iron falsing etc. So as time went by my detecting proficiency went up I think. And XP released the hf coils. So back into the site to get acquainted with Deus and HF coil. I had ellliptical one first. I went to site first time just to sweep around and listen to. To get idea of disc levels etc. May have been next day or the day after I was off to the races in this same site with he deus elliptical. Green horn hf deus coil user too. Think the day after I took an actual forum member here to site. And I used a deep tech warrior unit. So it was day after my initial trial run with Deus hf coil.
So as I started sweeping I came upon this same spot and swept and heard some thing sounding higher odds nonferrous than all my previous encounters. So I dug and out popped around 4" deep a war nickel. Golly gee I had swept this thing for around 5 years. And never got till this day. And wouldn't you know it. About less than 2 feet over I get a signal (one of those just good enough to give a try and out pops a Spanish bit again around 4" deep. Coincidence that I was using hf coil and located and dig these 2 targets? Don't think so.
And I think it was next few days I was in fort part of site. And had been here several times too before and found nothing really ever but a few smaller musket balls and maybe one of those older flat buttons. And on that day I happen to dig the smallest Spanish bit I ever dig. Real small and thin. Again another coincidence? Don't think so.
I posted about this stuff earlier on this forum.
Naturally there some some comments made that my story and finds all BS. As I live to far inland for Spanish bits to exist.
This site near river. This river used heavily back in the day as terrain here for roads back then difficult using available tech to build.

Yeah.
I had a blast those days.
This site may be even more productive in near future.
Hopefully I can detect some more do some more videos and talk about detector performance and finds in this site once again.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2021 07:02PM by tnsharpshooter.
Re: Looking for opinions (iron "falsing")
June 06, 2021 07:57PM
tnsharpshooter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Big iron destroys all detectors really.
>


tn-sharpshooter, thanx for chiming in. I guess I should have been more clear: I am VERY AWARE that I am doing better at un-masking, when using the Deus , versus than with my Explorer. No dispute about that. That was not my issue. My issue was the bigger iron (eg.: very big rusted nuts, rusty crown bottle caps, domino-sized cast-iron fragments etc.....). And in THOSE cases, I have to disagree with you : they do not "destroy" all machines equally. Some machines are more prone to getting fooled by them. And IMHO : The Deus is one such machine.

YES there are audio tricks to over-come them. But then you can kiss un-masking goodbye. If a coin was under that domino sized cast iron chunk, then your audio tricks are going to tell you to pass it. Ie.: you will mask. Perhaps the Deus will un-mask with a few rusty square nails over a coin. But the trick ceases to work with larger iron. And to be honest with you, I have to wonder whether : 2 square nails over a coin might mimic the audio of the "trick" that is supposed to be used, to pass iron.

So I find myself digging a ton of these larger iron objects "Just to be sure". Doh ! And by the end of the day, my buddies who are rejecting iron better will simply have more conductive targets in their aprons. Because they haven't spent lots of time trying to 2nd-guess these audio-tricks.

I might add that this is a site-specific curse: Because some sites are not riddled with "larger iron". It might be predominantly smaller iron (nails, wire, etc...). In which case, yes, the Deus shines. I have a site, near my area, which ceased all human influence by 1860 or so. And for whatever reason, there's only an occasional larger iron object that sounds off on the Deus. Which, yes, I can correctly "call" ahead of time. And the smaller iron is overcome just fine by the Deus. Such that I was simply amazed at what all the prior generations at this site had left. It's been hit by Explorers, XLT, 6000s, CZ's, Tesoros, etc..... To the point where it was difficult to get ANY more conductive hits in the heavy iron zones. But the Deus effortlessly bagged 6 or 7 more, in an area where I'd probably only have been able to have heard 1 of them, for example.

HOWEVER, at another site I can think of, I bagged so much large iron, that it was driving me bonkers. And when I dedicated myself to the "tricks" (to pass the larger iron, despite how crystal clear it rings) then I suspected that I was *only* digging targets to which I had a clear-line-of-sight too. And found myself doing no better than my buddies with their 800s.

Oh well, I'll practice more.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2021 08:00PM by Tom_in_CA.
Re: Looking for opinions (iron "falsing")
June 16, 2021 05:47AM
I am not a relic hunter but from what I have seen others say and do I believe at some sites you have to clear out the large iron to see what possibly lies underneath it. I don't know of any detector that can see a coin sized target under a domino sized piece of iron, if there is one I would like to know what it is because I want one. smiling smiley
Re: Looking for opinions (iron "falsing")
June 20, 2021 01:09PM
NASA-Tom Wrote: "Gen-1 Multi-IQ presents some fairly major attributes. Gen-2 will take M-IQ even further."

Tom, will Gen-2 likely be software upgradeable on the existing NOX platform or is it likely to be a new hardware platform?

———

The new F2 iron bias appears to be more than just an expansion of the iron bias range. The detector seems to behave differently as if new algorithms are at work.
Re: Looking for opinions (iron "falsing")
June 21, 2021 06:07PM
go-rebels........both sentences are spot-on. BUT........ because there are several companies watching every move of Minelab and Tarsacci........... it would not be prudent for me to disseminate future intent(s).
Overall......... I do believe most companies will indeed allow for user-friendly updatable platforms. This expands way beyond metal detectors.

The future is looking bright.
Re: Looking for opinions (iron "falsing")
June 21, 2021 09:40PM
I don't think I dig any more iron with the EQX then any other detector I've used. It certainly unmasks better.

What I have observed is that when hunting in old relic sites, that it IDs large iron (axe heads, large spikes, chisels, etc) at TID 13, right at nickles. That said, the audio is different then a nickle, being flat and very monotone vs a nickle (or other conductor in nickle range) which has a bright more alluring audio characteristics. I still dig all the 13's as one never knows, but I do find it odd that larger pieces of iron are ID'd @ 13.

Tom_in_CA said "like my Exp II. Which effortlessly ignores ALL iron" - When we compare our finds at the end of a hunt, I'm fairly certain I've seen a handful of iron targets each and every time we've been out.
Re: Looking for opinions (iron "falsing")
June 22, 2021 12:58AM
Brian----Check your p.m.s--------Del
Re: Looking for opinions (iron "falsing")
June 22, 2021 06:29PM
Cal_cobra Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't think I dig any more iron with the EQX the
> n any other detector I've used. It certainly unma
> sks better.
>
> What I have observed is that when hunting in old r
> elic sites, that it IDs large iron (axe heads, lar
> ge spikes, chisels, etc) at TID 13, right at nickl
> es. That said, the audio is different then a nick
> le, being flat and very monotone vs a nickle (or o
> ther conductor in nickle range) which has a bright
> more alluring audio characteristics. I still dig
> all the 13's as one never knows, but I do find it
> odd that larger pieces of iron are ID'd @ 13.
>
> Tom_in_CA said "like my Exp II. Which effortlessly
> ignores ALL iron" - When we compare our finds at t
> he end of a hunt, I'm fairly certain I've seen a h
> andful of iron targets each and every time we've b
> een out.


Cal Cobra i found the equinox to do the exact same thing, call all the big nasty tin and garbage a 13. I will actually dig more big iron trash with eq 800. For me seems to be less clues then deus. They all seem to have pros and cons in the trash. Just a matter of which you can more easily relate to or put up with. Anyone who is swinging a combo of both deus and Eq 800 I think are swinging the best of the best. For the real nasty spots though ill grab my anfibio or impact with 5" coil.
Re: Looking for opinions (iron "falsing")
June 22, 2021 09:24PM
Hey all,

THANKS for chiming in. Great comments. I've been on vacation for 2 weeks, and thus not alot of time to read/post. I'm caught up now.

NASA-Tom, I wanted to thank you for those tips. Even using them, however, I still struggle with some of these targets -- much more than you do. HOWEVER, that is of no surprise, given the delta in experience between the two of us. Question, if the VDI of the MDT is "horrific" in these scenarios, yet the audio is "stunning," and telling, can you elaborate just a little on what I might want to listen for (and in what mode -- all metal, disc, or combined)?

OK, some follow-up comments regarding my initial post, and many of the comments that have followed from others (thanks all)...

I was in Pennsylvania, and so I had a chance to hit one of my favorite old church sites, that has a good many square nails (and many that have "fooled" me entirely, over the years). SINCE I don't have, nor really want to purchase, a Deus -- although many here have said it's a MUCH better unit in these scenarios, I decided to do something I've never done. I put in a couple hour hunt at this church site, running the Equinox FOR THE FIRST TIME in a mode other than Multi-IQ. I decided to run it at single freq, 20 kHz, trying to sort of maybe "mimic" to some degree, what I thought might be some of the reasons the Deus might be working better for some in these scenarios than the Equinox. And in doing so, I learned some interesting things.

First -- I learned that 20 kHz is indeed MUCH less "falsy" in the square nails. It was a MUCH easier hunt; I dug VERY few of them, and NONE were of the variety where I was legitimately "fooled." They were "iffy," but I had to dig several of those, to learn how 20 kHz behaves. My conclusion is that it is a MUCH easier way to hunt, in square nails. I was very pleased.

I ALSO learned, however, that running Multi many times in the past at this site (and of course digging many "good-sounding" square nails) may have been frustrating and tedious, due to all the nails I've dug, BUT -- I ALSO did not leave many good targets. So, I conclude that while I'll dig more square nails than I hope to in Multi-IQ, when chasing very deep high conductors, I also am not MISSING a whole lot. So, that's at least good. I did dig 3 IHPs running at 20 kHz. Two were from a part of the site that I largely avoided in the past due to the density of the square nails there (so that is a "bit" of a victory, as 20 kHz DID allow me to hunt this part of the site fairly easily). The other was from a small section that I've never hunted before, so, not "apples to apples" there. In the areas of the site that I've hit hard in the past with Multi-IQ (and with Explorer and CTX), I dug no coins, but did dig one high conductor -- a "broach" that was IDing in the IHP range. Also good, is that all of these digs were "moderately" deep (largely about 7 inches or so), which also gave me confidence that while 20 kHz may not be the DEEPEST way to set up the unit, it was also not substantially "crippled," either, depth-wise.

So, that's my assessment at this point. The next adjustment will be for me to try the 6" coil at this site. I have used it before here, but abandoned it quickly because it is even MORE apt to call a square nail a "coin," when running in Multi. SO, since I have found that 20 kHz is a much less "falsy" way to run the machine in this type of iron, with 11" coil attached, I will give the 6" another chance. THIS may be the key to pulling out a few more keepers, as I know there are at least a couple of targets that are "masked" with the 11" coil, that a smaller coil may be able to see. That's why I bought the 6", but since it turned out to be so falsy, that offset any possible separation benefit it may have offered. But, at 20 kHz, if the "falsiness" is toned down, like it was on the 11", then I might actually be able to utilize what should be this small coil's ability to separate adjacent coin/iron situations a bit better. That is yet to be seen.

Steve
Re: Looking for opinions (iron "falsing")
June 22, 2021 10:01PM
Steve....... when I place a lot of attention to the VDI screen of the MDT....... it is quite 'jumpy'. Unless the target is shallow....... it hardly 'locks on' to a VDI number....for target ID. But......... I never use the VDI on nearly any unit.......regardless of brand. The audio of the Tarsacci is all-telling.
The VDI of the EQX/M-IQ platform really 'locks-on' to a number...... and holds it. Even at depth. BUT........ once again........ I virtually never look at a ID screen.
Re: Looking for opinions (iron "falsing")
June 23, 2021 03:19AM
steveg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey all,
>
> THANKS for chiming in. Great comments. I've been
> on vacation for 2 weeks, and thus not alot of time
> to read/post. I'm caught up now.
>
> NASA-Tom, I wanted to thank you for those tips. E
> ven using them, however, I still struggle with som
> e of these targets -- much more than you do. HOWE
> VER, that is of no surprise, given the delta in ex
> perience between the two of us. Question, if the
> VDI of the MDT is "horrific" in these scenarios, y
> et the audio is "stunning," and telling, can you e
> laborate just a little on what I might want to lis
> ten for (and in what mode -- all metal, disc, or c
> ombined)?
>
> OK, some follow-up comments regarding my initial p
> ost, and many of the comments that have followed f
> rom others (thanks all)...
>
> I was in Pennsylvania, and so I had a chance to hi
> t one of my favorite old church sites, that has a
> good many square nails (and many that have "fooled
> " me entirely, over the years). SINCE I don't hav
> e, nor really want to purchase, a Deus -- although
> many here have said it's a MUCH better unit in the
> se scenarios, I decided to do something I've never
> done. I put in a couple hour hunt at this church
> site, running the Equinox FOR THE FIRST TIME in a
> mode other than Multi-IQ. I decided to run it at
> single freq, 20 kHz, trying to sort of maybe "mimi
> c" to some degree, what I thought might be some of
> the reasons the Deus might be working better for s
> ome in these scenarios than the Equinox. And in d
> oing so, I learned some interesting things.
>
> First -- I learned that 20 kHz is indeed MUCH less
> "falsy" in the square nails. It was a MUCH easier
> hunt; I dug VERY few of them, and NONE were of the
> variety where I was legitimately "fooled." They w
> ere "iffy," but I had to dig several of those, to
> learn how 20 kHz behaves. My conclusion is that i
> t is a MUCH easier way to hunt, in square nails.
> I was very pleased.
>
> I ALSO learned, however, that running Multi many t
> imes in the past at this site (and of course diggi
> ng many "good-sounding" square nails) may have bee
> n frustrating and tedious, due to all the nails I'
> ve dug, BUT -- I ALSO did not leave many goo
> d targets.
So, I conclude that while I'll
> dig more square nails than I hope to in Multi-IQ,
> when chasing very deep high conductors, I also am
> not MISSING a whole lot. So, that's at least good
> . I did dig 3 IHPs running at 20 kHz. Two were f
> rom a part of the site that I largely avoided in t
> he past due to the density of the square nails the
> re (so that is a "bit" of a victory, as 20 kHz DID
> allow me to hunt this part of the site fairly easi
> ly). The other was from a small section that I've
> never hunted before, so, not "apples to apples" th
> ere. In the areas of the site that I've hit hard
> in the past with Multi-IQ (and with Explorer and C
> TX), I dug no coins, but did dig one high conducto
> r -- a "broach" that was IDing in the IHP range.
> Also good, is that all of these digs were "moderat
> ely" deep (largely about 7 inches or so), which al
> so gave me confidence that while 20 kHz may not be
> the DEEPEST way to set up the unit, it was also no
> t substantially "crippled," either, depth-wise.
>
> So, that's my assessment at this point. The next
> adjustment will be for me to try the 6" coil at th
> is site. I have used it before here, but abandone
> d it quickly because it is even MORE apt to call a
> square nail a "coin," when running in Multi. SO,
> since I have found that 20 kHz is a much less "fal
> sy" way to run the machine in this type of iron, w
> ith 11" coil attached, I will give the 6" another
> chance. THIS may be the key to pulling out a few
> more keepers, as I know there are at least a coupl
> e of targets that are "masked" with the 11" coil,
> that a smaller coil may be able to see. That's wh
> y I bought the 6", but since it turned out to be s
> o falsy, that offset any possible separation benef
> it it may have offered. But, at 20 kHz, if the "f
> alsiness" is toned down, like it was on the 11", t
> hen I might actually be able to utilize what shoul
> d be this small coil's ability to separate adjacen
> t coin/iron situations a bit better. That is yet
> to be seen.
>
> Steve


My expericences. Hunting site using EQX 800 - with original released version software and with iron bias FE set to 0. This square nail infested site (area) already busted hard with Deus using both 9" and 11" LF coils by me.
On most Eqx located targets using multi freq Deus and LF coil use would not detect. How did EQX do on these using single freq in particularly the use of 20 and 40 kHz? Some targets I got no detection. And the hits when I did get where very light hits tone wise. I rate most as I would not have located had I not already located using multi freq (park 2 and field 2 modes used).
Can soil play a part in how well the single freq ops works on EQX? Perhaps.

I listen for the hollowed sounding tone. When hunting area loading with nails using EQX. Rotating around target not a sure thing to do in making a decision. Nor is using the horse shoe button. Repeatability and sound when sweeping the "spot" on ground is key.

Now I did do head to head using Deus and HF coils on these EQX located targets. The hf coils faired better than the deus LF coils did.

I posted about this right here on this forum. Some time back.

So IMO a site is not deemed hunted out (EQX 800 wise) unless multi freq has been used in site. Just use of single freq hunting won't get all the EQX detectable goodies.
This is my story and I am sticking to it.

This post of Steve's.

We may have to pull this back up in the future and revisit.

Cheers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2021 03:23AM by tnsharpshooter.
cjc
Re: Looking for opinions (iron "falsing")
June 24, 2021 03:31AM
These are the simple basic skills that no one bothers with now--thinking that they can run before walking. When you begin to look for "sets" of target characteristics instead of thinking that there is some audio subtly to listen for these spikes are easy to discern. People think that "tech" is going to do it all for them when the opposite is try--more basic skills are needed to harness the extra power and make sense of the more detailed information. Thanks all "Im going to say. cjc
cjc
Re: Looking for opinions (iron "falsing")
June 24, 2021 03:33AM
These are the simple basic skills that no one bothers with now--thinking that they can run before walking. When you begin to look for "sets" of target characteristics instead of thinking that there is some audio subtly to listen for these spikes are easy to discern. People think that "tech" is going to do it all for them when the opposite is try--more basic skills are needed to harness the extra power and make sense of the more detailed information. People see that I have three books on this detector but can't imagine that there might be anything in them that would help them. Case in point. cjc
Re: Looking for opinions (iron "falsing")
June 25, 2021 01:27AM
cjc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> These are the simple basic skills that no one both
> ers with now--thinking that they can run before wa
> lking. When you begin to look for "sets" of targe
> t characteristics instead of thinking that there i
> s some audio subtly to listen for these spikes are
> easy to discern. People think that "tech" is goin
> g to do it all for them when the opposite is try--
> more basic skills are needed to harness the extra
> power and make sense of the more detailed informat
> ion. People see that I have three books on this de
> tector but can't imagine that there might be anyth
> ing in them that would help them. Case in point.
> cjc
I just ordered 2 of your books on the Equinox off of %$#@ last week, looking to hone my skills with my 800. smiling smiley
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