Is the Legend just a cloned Equinox?

I had to ask !! I am happy that Nokta has joined the SMF detector market but something is really just not sitting right with me about the Legend.
Is my thinking totally off???Is it a clone of the Nox?

Is it Noktas own spinoff of a nox? Whats your thoughts?

The question that bothers me is how does it perform?

With all the shots they fired at Minelab why not just come out and say it will outperform the Equinox? Unless..



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2021 07:03PM by calabash digger.

My thoughts on it.
I remember when they asked what we wanted and a lot of us where saying a NOX clone of some sort. I am even guilty of that so can't blame them for making a NOX clone.
The thing that was weird to me was the back stabbing in the video against Minelab when they know they "borrowed Minelabs TECH". Even when she had her video feed go down she had to come back with a Minelab stab in the back I found that weird.
The one thing that bothers me the most and doesn't seem to bother others is the Warranty. If it is not going to leak like the Minelab NOX and everyone keeps defending Nokta saying it won't then why only a 2 year Warranty?
The Clock is nice to have I used mine on my CTX all the time.
The FE thing has been around before and usually doesn't help much. Hell I could knock out TABS with my Tesero golden notch.
It looks good depending on performance but the NOX has already proven itself to me so it is a no PreOrder for me.

The Competition is good to keep Minelab going I just hope they are not a Turkish Chinese company that is just going to keep copying tech that is already here.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2021 03:23PM by GreenMeanie.

"The thing that was weird to me was the back stabbing in the video against Minelab when they know they "borrowed Minelabs TECH". Even when she had her video feed go down she had to come back with a Minelab stab in the back I found that weird."

I don't see how this is not obvious to you unless you haven't.been reading the forums. Back when ML said that the Nox makes all single freq machines obsolete, N/M took that personally(which they had every right to do) and have a HEALTHY grudge against the competition. This is good for us. It ensures we get quality products for a competitive price.

I find it really odd, that people still question N/M even though they have a proven track record of quality products rated by a vast, worldwide consumer base.

I can't vouch for the Legend until I use it. I am in the process of ordering on(I hope). I will be back making vids in 2022. I will do a breakdown of it, and then a comparison to the Nox.

"It's only when we lost everything, that we are free to do anything"

I just watched a Video and Dilek said she is working on them to UP the Warranty.
That is good News.

I think that Keith Southern quote you have in your signature might apply here.
Would Nokta Makro have a SMF machine now if Minelab had not forced them to??
Dont know...
I am not doubting the build quality of the Legend but I do have my sneaky suspicions about the performance of it compared to the Nox. We shall see...

If am wrong I will be the first to admit it.
I am number 1 on a preorder list for a Legend...

This roll out is starting to remind of the tricky Rick roll out of the Fisher machine ...BTW where is that machine now...Can I say I told you so..

Everyone I know wears a fitness tracker. So paying 650 bucks for a detector with a clock makes no sense. Now if the detector counted my steps and monitored my heartbeat I would be into that. I saw on another forum where a guy wanted the CTX for GPS. Yeah my fitness tracker does that too. Will the Legend have better balance and swing better than the Equinox? It darn well should. But wait..I already own a shaft to make that better. It comes down to performance. What will make all those Equinox owners purchase a Legend? Finding two more wheat pennies isn't a reason for me either.

I've owned a lot of Nokta Makro detectors, Racer 1 and 2, Impact, Multi Kruzer and Simplex. Build quality on them has never been an issue that I can recall. But performance has never been anything special IMO with the exception of the Impact. However the audio on the Impact sucked and I sold it for that reason. IMO they are just mediocre machines and ever since the Equinox came out I could see no reason to keep anything but the Simplex as a loaner and backup waterproof machine. I'm hoping the Legend is going to be different, time will tell. It does kind of bug me that they are just trying to make another Equinox with a few improvements. All I can say is the Legend better be at least equivalent in performance to the Equinox or it's going to bite them in the Butt. I really don't see how the Legend is going to be any deeper or any more accurate in ID than the Equinox. The place it could really shine is better separation in iron infested areas and still maintain an accurate ID. I will be getting both the Deus 2 and the Legend when they become available. I know I'm at the top of the list for both with the dealer I'm getting them from. Before I make any judgment calls on either one I will be spending a lot of time in the field doing testing against the Equinox. I kind of doubt the Legend will knock the Equinox of it's platform but I could be wrong.

Calabash, a few questions...

How does one go about reverse-engineering a direct-sampling metal detector?

Is the Legend direct sampling in the first place? Or does it use analog demods?

Is the Deus2 also a reverse-engineered Equinox?

The Equinox TX waveform is very White's-like... did ML poach ideas from White's?

------------------
Back when Makro released the Racer people were saying that it was a reverse-engineered T2. So I got a Racer, took it apart, and traced out the analog circuitry. It was nothing like a T2. And the micro used in the Racer was a different brand and technology than used in the T2, so it was very unlikely that they ripped the code from the T2 and used it. Instead, I suspect they figured out how to emulate the behavior of a detector that a lot of people liked.

Geotech,

Off-topic, but in the interest of furthering my own understanding...

Can you define what is meant by a "direct-sampling" detector?

Also, I am probably REALLY getting into the weeds here, but what does an "analog demodulator" do?

Sorry for the elementary questions, but not being an electrical/electronics engineer leaves me at a disadvantage when trying to understand detector function in the way that I wish I could...

Steve

Geotech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Calabash, a few questions...
>
> How does one go about reverse-engineering a direct
> -sampling metal detector?
>
> Is the Legend direct sampling in the first place?
> Or does it use analog demods?
>
> Is the Deus2 also a reverse-engineered Equinox?
>
> The Equinox TX waveform is very White's-like... di
> d ML poach ideas from White's?
>
> ------------------
> Back when Makro released the Racer people were say
> ing that it was a reverse-engineered T2. So I got
> a Racer, took it apart, and traced out the analog
> circuitry. It was nothing like a T2. And the micro
> used in the Racer was a different brand and techno
> logy than used in the T2, so it was very unlikely
> that they ripped the code from the T2 and used it.
> Instead, I suspect they figured out how to emulate
> the behavior of a detector that a lot of people li
> ked.

How do do the Chinese do it ? I dont have a clue. I should have used the word copy, mimic something different than reverse...Maybe I should have said it just seems like to much of a copy of the Equinox to me.

Its not the multi part of the detector I am really talking about because that is really unknown at this point.

It is the rest of it....Looks like a Nox, Walks like a Nox ,and even looks like it even talks like a Nox...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2021 07:19PM by calabash digger.

Did IQs suddenly drop while I was away?-Just a movie quote guys don't get heated.

Did everyone forget all the hard work Kieth did in reviewing the N/M machines? Did everyone forget the response time, tone break, and other advantages that the N/M line of machines provided? We have to wait and see if the legend will live up to it's name, or be a dud. To make any kind of judgment now is putting the profit before the cart AND the horse.

"It's only when we lost everything, that we are free to do anything"

The Legend will get its day inn the sunshine. Soon hopefully. And we will know the real deal with it.
I sorta feel upset.
I got had by Minelab when I bought my Equinox 800. Seems I was conned with a gimmick detector. Lol lol.
So I guess I am slow or some thing. Lol.

So slow I reckon, wonder if Nokta Makro wants this stupid fool and the rest who bought Equinoxes to buy their Legend?

A gimmick uh.
Think about this.
If Minelab would have just called Equinox multi freq detector.
This not the tell all, right?
I mean EQX does things that these so-called other gimmicks FBS/FBS2 and BBS can't do. Anyone who has run these knows full well I am not blowing smoke.

I don't have a degree in marketing. Maybe I should have pursued.

Btw, why wait until a manufacturer debuts a multi freq and then call another manufacturer out selling gimmicks ?

I'll watch and see how Legend performs.

Cheers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2021 08:38PM by tnsharpshooter.

Seen a FB post where Nok/Mak said it beats the Nox in certain scenarios.

steveg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can you define what is meant by a "direct-sampling" detector?

With most detectors the RX coil feeds a preamp, which then feeds 2 or more synchronous demodulators which convert the operational frequency to near-DC signals. This is where the term "IQ" comes from, one demod is clocked in-phase and the other is clocked in quadrature (90°). Together the two demod signals give us the phase of the signal which is used for target ID. The demod signals are then digitized with an ADC (analog/digital converter) and sent to a micro.

A direct-sampling detector places the ADC right after the preamp and digitizes the signal at the operational frequency. The digitized signal is sent to the micro which does demodulation digitally. It is a harder way to do things (and requires a much better ADC) but is more flexible.

Direct sampling detectors I know of are Minelab X-Terra, Go-Find, Equinox, Vanquish; XP Deus; and White's Prizm 6T/Coin GT.

Geotech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> steveg Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Can you define what is meant by a "direct-sampli
> ng" detector?
>
> With most detectors the RX coil feeds a preamp, wh
> ich then feeds 2 or more synchronous demodulators
> which convert the operational frequency to near-DC
> signals. This is where the term "IQ" comes from, o
> ne demod is clocked in-phase and the other is cloc
> ked in quadrature (90°). Together the two demod si
> gnals give us the phase of the signal which is use
> d for target ID. The demod signals are then digiti
> zed with an ADC (analog/digital converter) and sen
> t to a micro.
>
> A direct-sampling detector places the ADC right af
> ter the preamp and digitizes the signal at the ope
> rational frequency. The digitized signal is sent t
> o the micro which does demodulation digitally. It
> is a harder way to do things (and requires a much
> better ADC) but is more flexible.
>
> Direct sampling detectors I know of are Minelab X-
> Terra, Go-Find, Equinox, Vanquish; XP Deus; and Wh
> ite's Prizm 6T/Coin GT.


Man! I’m getting rid of my T2. I don’t think it has or does any of that



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2021 11:01PM by Bill long.

I was thuinking about buying one Bill. ----Bill long Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Geotech Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > steveg Wrote:
> > ------------------------------------------------
> --
> > -----
> > > Can you define what is meant by a "direct-samp
> li
> > ng" detector?
> >
> > With most detectors the RX coil feeds a preamp,
> wh
> > ich then feeds 2 or more synchronous demodulator
> s
> > which convert the operational frequency to near-
> DC
> > signals. This is where the term "IQ" comes from,
> o
> > ne demod is clocked in-phase and the other is cl
> oc
> > ked in quadrature (90°). Together the two demod
> si
> > gnals give us the phase of the signal which is u
> se
> > d for target ID. The demod signals are then digi
> ti
> > zed with an ADC (analog/digital converter) and s
> en
> > t to a micro.
> >
> > A direct-sampling detector places the ADC right
> af
> > ter the preamp and digitizes the signal at the o
> pe
> > rational frequency. The digitized signal is sent
> t
> > o the micro which does demodulation digitally. I
> t
> > is a harder way to do things (and requires a muc
> h
> > better ADC) but is more flexible.
> >
> > Direct sampling detectors I know of are Minelab
> X-
> > Terra, Go-Find, Equinox, Vanquish; XP Deus; and
> Wh
> > ite's Prizm 6T/Coin GT.
>
>
> Man! I’m getting rid of my T2. I don’t think it ha
> s or does any of that

calabash digger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How do do the Chinese do it ? I dont have a clue.

The Chinese rip the code image out of the micro of a real detector and use the image to replicate other micros. That's pretty easy, I can send a detector to China with 5 Ben Franklins and they will send me back the micro's code image.

But to modify that image for use in a new design mean you have to disassemble it from the image back to assembly language, and then understand what you have. That's a really tall order. The only time I've seen it done is when Deteknix ripped the T2 code and used it in their Q20/30 models. But they added code to support wireless headphones and rechargeable batteries, including minor mods to the keypad and display. I sent a Q30 to China and got the code ripped from it, and it was 80+% identical to the T2. The remainder being code that Deteknix added or modified. So it can be done, but is incredibly challenging and usually not worthwhile (as Deteknix found out).

> It is the rest of it....Looks like a Nox, Walks like a Nox ,and even looks like it even talks like a Nox...

And what does the Nox look like? Well, ironically, a whole lot like the Deteknix models! I believe Deteknix was the first with the cellphone-on-a-stick concept.
Reality is, all detector companies borrow from each other, just like every other industry. Not a Big Deal.

I don't understand people's surprise. It's the same as every other market, when the first automobile came with windshield wipers or electric windows and locks or climate control others copied it. When the first flat screen tv came out others copied it. When apple made the smart phone others copied it. Why because it worked and people liked it. The nox is a extremely popular detector so why wouldn't another company take features or use the same verbiage. Everyone wanted a SMF so that's what they did. You can bet the electronics aren't the same because it's a different company. I don't understand that side of it anyway I leave that to people who do like NASA tom and geotech. But I'm sure the similarities are skin deep, we just have to wait to see how the performance is. And as far as trash talking seems the same as a vehicle commercial to me it's business!

Quote:"Direct sampling detectors I know of are Minelab X-Terra, Go-Find, Equinox, Vanquish; XP Deus; and White's Prizm 6T/Coin GT"
Others that could probably be added to that list :
XP Orx and Deus 2, (seems pretty obvious)
Rutus Alter71; the selectable freq choices make direct-sampling highly likely.
NokMak's other models with selectable freq: Anfibio, Kruzer & multi, Impact. Maybe the Simplex, too.
Tarsacci MDT8000 seems a good bet, too: selectable freq, plus the complex time-domain analysis part of its operation makes a plain demod rather limiting.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2021 01:03PM by Pimento.

GreenMeanie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My thoughts on it.
> I remember when they asked what we wanted and a lo
> t of us where saying a NOX clone of some sort. I a
> m even guilty of that so can't blame them for maki
> ng a NOX clone.
> The thing that was weird to me was the back stabbi
> ng in the video against Minelab when they know the
> y "borrowed Minelabs TECH". Even when she had her
> video feed go down she had to come back with a Min
> elab stab in the back I found that weird.
> The one thing that bothers me the most and doesn't
> seem to bother others is the Warranty. If it is no
> t going to leak like the Minelab NOX and everyone
> keeps defending Nokta saying it won't then why onl
> y a 2 year Warranty?
> The Clock is nice to have I used mine on my CTX al
> l the time.
> The FE thing has been around before and usually do
> esn't help much. Hell I could knock out TABS with
> my Tesero golden notch.
> It looks good depending on performance but the NOX
> has already proven itself to me so it is a no PreO
> rder for me.
>
> The Competition is good to keep Minelab going I ju
> st hope they are not a Turkish Chinese company tha
> t is just going to keep copying tech that is alrea
> dy here.


Why the 2 year warranty ?

I think it is all about the math. They are putting out a competitive detector AND coming in at a price approx $300 less than the Equinox 800. Betting that if they extend the coverage to 3 or 4 etc, the economics math doesn't work in their favor.

On the bright side, Sven indicated the housing can be opened AND is sealed by an O-ring. This gives the impression to me that the main unit can be serviced and repaired even after the warranty period. The Equinox being a sealed unit must be replaced.

Does anybody know how Minelab is handling failed equinox units AFTER the warranty expires? Like How much is a replacement unit? My 800 is out of warranty as of last March and I am curious. .


rich

------------------------------------------------------------------

Just one more good target before I go.

Thanks, geotech!

Much appreciated. VERY complex, obviously, for someone without the background, but it actually helped a bit in my understanding.

Thank you!

Steve

Geotech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> steveg Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Can you define what is meant by a "direct-sampli
> ng" detector?
>
> With most detectors the RX coil feeds a preamp, wh
> ich then feeds 2 or more synchronous demodulators
> which convert the operational frequency to near-DC
> signals. This is where the term "IQ" comes from, o
> ne demod is clocked in-phase and the other is cloc
> ked in quadrature (90°). Together the two demod si
> gnals give us the phase of the signal which is use
> d for target ID. The demod signals are then digiti
> zed with an ADC (analog/digital converter) and sen
> t to a micro.
>
> A direct-sampling detector places the ADC right af
> ter the preamp and digitizes the signal at the ope
> rational frequency. The digitized signal is sent t
> o the micro which does demodulation digitally. It
> is a harder way to do things (and requires a much
> better ADC) but is more flexible.
>
> Direct sampling detectors I know of are Minelab X-
> Terra, Go-Find, Equinox, Vanquish; XP Deus; and Wh
> ite's Prizm 6T/Coin GT.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2021 12:02AM by steveg.

I dont know how they dealing with out of warranty pods. I have one that is out of warranty and does not work so I might give them a call and see what they say.

I had 3 pods fail on the Equinox. One guy I know had 7 flood. My friend will not go near a mudhole with his out of warranty unit.

I get that companies borrow from one another. I am just not used to seeing the company that did the borrowing doing a whole lot of trash talking about the detector they copied mimicked or whatever its called .

> Why the 2 year warranty ?
Dilek stated last night on a Q&A Facebook talk that she is putting pressure on management to extend the warranty. I have a feeling that'll happen. .
>
> On the bright side, Sven indicated the housing can
> be opened AND is sealed by an O-ring. This gives t
> he impression to me that the main unit can be serv
> iced and repaired even after the warranty period.
> The Equinox being a sealed unit must be replaced.
>
> Does anybody know how Minelab is handling failed e
> quinox units AFTER the warranty expires? Like How
> much is a replacement unit? My 800 is out of warr
> anty as of last March and I am curious. .
>
>
> rich

Dilek stated last night on a Q&A Facebook talk that she is putting pressure on management to extend the warranty. I have a feeling that'll happen.

One of the customer service reps told me the last tine a had a pod in for replacement that after the warranty expires, a new pod will cost $350 for the 800 and will come with a 3 year warranty.

calabash digger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I get that companies borrow from one another. I am just not used to seeing the company that did the
> borrowing doing a whole lot of trash talking about the detector they copied mimicked or whatever its
> called .

Well that's another issue, and really has nothing to do with whether they mimicked the Equinox. IMO, it's just bad form to trash-talk a competitor, especially during the initial unveiling. I recall when Steve Howard of White's was talking down "that cute French thing" in one of their promo videos. Well, who's out of business and who ain't? Best thing is tell us what they got and why we're gonna like it. So, yeah, I agree with you on that point.

Pimento Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Others that could probably be added to that list:
> XP Orx and Deus 2, (seems pretty obvious)

Definitely Orx, and I also assume Deus2.

> Rutus Alter71; the selectable freq choices make direct-sampling highly likely.
> NokMak's other models with selectable freq: Kruzer, Impact. Maybe the Simplex, too.
> Tarsacci MDT8000 seems a good bet, too: selectable freq, plus the complex time-domain analysis part
> of its operation makes a plain demod rather limiting.

Tarsacci uses analog demods, according to the patent. Generally, analog demods are easy to adapt to selectable frequencies so I assume analog demods as direct sampling is quite a bit harder to do and still maintain depth.

calabash digger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I dont know how they dealing with out of warranty
> pods. I have one that is out of warranty and does
> not work so I might give them a call and see what
> they say.
>
> I had 3 pods fail on the Equinox. One guy I know h
> ad 7 flood. My friend will not go near a mudhole w
> ith his out of warranty unit.
>
> I get that companies borrow from one another. I am
> just not used to seeing the company that did the b
> orrowing doing a whole lot of trash talking about
> the detector they copied mimicked or whatever its
> called .

Wow 3 fail? And your buddy had 7 fail? I've had 2 fail .. my second was from cracks forming around brass inserts where the bolts go that bolt it to the shaft. All 4 areas were cracked and cracked through battery compartment. So cheaply made. Love the electronics , hate the cheap build. I've had several XP deus detectors and don't remember ever having an issue other than a pinpointer connectivity issue that was solved quickly. Can't wait for my XP deus 2 to get here. Your equinox 800 pod will cost $350 for replacement.

The one place this new Legend will be of interest to many is in the water. Performance is just not as critical. Target separation for all practical purposes is not an issue in the water. And digging a deeper hole in the water I hunt is down right impossible. As already stated....being more reliable in the leak dept should not be a hard goal to obtain. Fine gold and depth in the wet sand. Those are the questions I have. The same ones since I started salt beach hunting.

Time will tell. But of the 4 models of theirs Ive owned every one of them has zero depth in target rich enviroments. The FBS/Nox eat their lunch and pop the bag in that regard. None of them could roll off a nail and hit an 7-8"+ dime. I think ppl read keiths stuff about the nokta/makros and didnt catch he was mainly reffering to small, shallow targets in heavy iron. The minelabs also are still DEEP in dry ground. Thus far no ones really came close in that regard. Theres also the ID at depth. Again, minelab owns that too.

Hopefully theres real, tangible improvements from the multi frequency that can be noticed when actually detecting after all the pot shots. If you come for the king, you best not miss.

Well said deadlift..

all I am hearing around here is the very same 'blah blah blah'
that wafted about, way back when the Racer was being released....

lets hope the humble pie is still available during these trying times