Can high conductors, copper and silver be seen as a low to mid conductors when very deep? range conductors uctor of it self?

A question for Tom and anyone else probably smarter than me. If a high conductor is detected very deep, at the edge of the detectors range, will the detector now see it as a medium to low conductor now? Will the silver or copper coin or artifact resonate better with a higher frequency dialed in like on the equinox than a lower one. If you know that high conductors are being found at the edge of the detectors depth range would field 2 possibly work better [multi frequency.] Maybe this cant be answered honestly because of unknown factors, moisture content of soil, mineral content. Your thoughts guys?

No, if you want to find high conductors at the deepest depth possible you probably want to use 5kHz only.

The target is still the same, so it has the same ID. All that changes is its signal strength drops, while the ground's signal strength remains unchanged. This is what makes it hard for the detector to give the accurate ID, giving it's 'best estimate' , which is normally between 'tiny iron' ( the ground ) and 'silver coin' ( the target )

glasartisan........... I know exactly 'why' you think this.
Let's look at a few different angles:

What if...... you have the 6" coil installed on the EQX (or any unit). You are JUST BARELY detecting an 8" deep dime. The target is very 'fringe depth' to the 6" coil. The ID's are splattered all over the board. BUT........ only because its signal-strength is excessively weak........and the detector just simply can not 'lock on' to such a weak signal.
Then you install the 11" coil. Now..... the 8" deep coin is much stronger........ with a target-ID "Lock-On".

With the 11" coil installed....... you detect a 10.5" deep dime. Now THIS target is categorized as "fringe". Same thing: ID's are 'splattered'...... due to extremely weak/fringe depth target.

It is not so much that a high-conductor wants to 'down-average'; yet, it is more a function of: nearly no signal-strength to process.

BUT........ if you have mineralization........ NOW the tables: turn. , . , . , . , . and the high-conductor may NOW want to drop in high-conductive ID...... but...... because the signal-strength of the iron mineralization is now becoming stronger than the weak/deep coin signal; hence, the coin now wanting to ID as 'iron'.

There's yet another factor. What if the coin is fairly steeply 'tilted'......... say at a 75-80 Degrees tilt (almost on-edge). Now.......... you are only seeing/viewing a very small sliver of the coin.........which (by mass)......is indeed a lower conductor. The edge of the coin still retains the same exact conductivity; yet, only a tiny portion of the high-conductor can be detected; hence...... a lower ID!

Thank you guys for helping me with that. Tom, the way you explained it puts it in prospective, more clear to me now.
The reason I asked this is because I have a clad quarter buried in my test garden at about 14 inches now for several years. I have low to medium mineralization. With my Equinox wearing the 11 inch coil, I can get the quarter with about a 2 inch air gap above ground in both field 2 and to a lesser extent park 2. Park 1 just barely gets it as does field 1. But my IDs will not go any higher than 7-9. So that was the basis of my question with those low ID #s. The quarter is acting like a low conductor at that kind of depth. Since Im getting those low ID#s, I thought it would make sense to try both #2 modes in multi freq. They both appear to be a little deeper than both #1 modes. I originally thought the #1 modes and or the 4 or 5 single freq should of been deeper on a higher conductor, but they weren't. I did try single freq at 4 and then 5 and I could not get anything. Thanks again for all your thoughts/ wisdom.

glasartisan..... GOOD THING you have a test-garden!!! Sounds to me like you have some form of mineralization(s)...... that is attenuating MORE of Park Mode-1. , . , . , . over Park Mode-2! WITHOUT a test-garden...... you would NOT know this!
And single-freq: 4-Khz (or 5-Khz) should easily detect the quarter at its deepest. BUT........ once again, , , , , something in your dirt is attenuating the lower freq's MORE!
Again: Thank God for test-gardens!!!

glasartisan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you guys for helping me with that. Tom, the
> way you explained it puts it in prospective, more
> clear to me now.
> The reason I asked this is because I have a
> clad quarter buried in my test garden at about 14
> inches now for several years. I have low to medium
> mineralization. With my Equinox wearing the 11 inc
> h coil, I can get the quarter with about a 2 inch
> air gap above ground in both field 2 and to a less
> er extent park 2. Park 1 just barely gets it as do
> es field 1. But my IDs will not go any higher than
> 7-9. So that was the basis of my question with tho
> se low ID #s. The quarter is acting like a low con
> ductor at that kind of depth. Since Im getting tho
> se low ID#s, I thought it would make sense to try
> both #2 modes in multi freq. They both appear to b
> e a little deeper than both #1 modes. I origina
> lly thought the #1 modes and or the 4 or 5 single
> freq should of been deeper on a higher conductor,
> but they weren't. I did try single freq at 4 and t
> hen 5 and I could not get anything. Thanks again f
> or all your thoughts/ wisdom.

All non-ferrous targets can be seen as negative VDI's. At least with the Equinox. I proved it again today when I had several deep targets that only single rang and had negative VDI's [beach 2] but these targets were non-ferrous when dug.

Thank you Tom. Yes the test garden does teach me alot. But I did forget to mention that I have to put up with emi from the pole wires. That silent and unsilent emi you guys talk about, can that be killing my depth on the quarter when Im in the single 4 or 5 Khtz and or in one of the park and field 1 modes? Even on some days I know Im not hearing any EMI but is it really still there affecting the detector? It sure dont seem like it bothers the #2 modes. Those are deep, reaching the quarter and then some. I have noticed in single freq on the Equinox, the emi lessens as I dial into a higher freq.
Now Tom mentioned that there is something going on with my soil mineralization. I assume the closer you get to 0 on the Equinox when ground balancing you have a more neutral soil and that is where it averages out for me. There are days when it balances at 35-40. Can EMI be affecting how the detector ground balances. Just trying to figure out why the VID #s on the quarter get pulled down to single digits if really my soil is close to neutral? EMI messing with VID #s? It is a clean test garden, no other in ground contaminants. Should a quarter at 4 inches reading at 30 VID# be reading the same at 14 inches providing no EMI and neutral ground? Thanks for the help.

glasartisan..........ABSOLUTELY! --- EMI KILLS ALL PERFORMANCE. Aside from being an audible ear-bashing.........the first thing EMI kills is: DEPTH. EMI also prevents the detector from seeing a 'clear' snapshot of the target; hence, causes bad ID's. Some frequencies are more affected by EMI. Find the ////frequency/Mode/group of frequencies//// that are LEAST affected by EMI/silent-EMI........and stick to the cleanest/clearest/EMI-free Mode........ even if it is NOT your hunting Mode of choice!

On this same (EMI) subject............ If we look at today's hyper-gain units. , . , . , . , . , . , . we can notice....... the ones that perform the best.....are the ones that mitigate EMI the best. Let's look at the new Deus-2. First........I'm shocked its factory Sensitivity preset is '95'--------that's nearly Max Sensitivity! No Mfr would ever do this!!!.......unless maximum mitigation of EMI has been imposed. Secondly, I speculate the Deus-2 is no deeper than the EQX. ----BUT. EXCEPT. ---- BECAUSE it mitigates EMI to a greater extent.,.,.,.,.,., you can guess 'which one' goes deeper (performs better) in the REAL World.
Conclusion/Summation: EMI is "key".

A natural auto Ground Balance of '0'....... does not necessarily mean: Low/No minerals. The tell-all is: How 'wide'....... or how 'narrow' is the Ground Balance ""span"".....and the unit still be fairly ground balanced. In other words: If you move your Ground Balance only a couple of digits away from 'balanced'.......... and you are suddenly severely out of Ground Balance . , . , . , . , . , then you have heavy mineralization.

This is all becoming more clear now why the detector is doing what it is doing and presenting to me. Will try to move the test garden to a different part of the yard so as not to get slammed with so much EMI.
I like your tip on finding another freq or mode that just might be more clearer and free of EMI and still maintain as high a sensitivity as possible. I can see doing it that more and more as you suggest. Im kind of learning that already. It certainly has to be much better than just giving in to EMI in your current mode and turning down your gain, just to be able to hunt in that EMI bombarding your detector.
Much appreciated Tom for your wisdom and thoughts.

glasartisan.......... something I failed to clarify:
Yes..... a single (low) frequency may go deeper overall....... BUT .....(usually) at a fatal cost. A single frequency has nothing to compare (comparator)........soooooo............the deeper the target goes.,.,.,.,the QUICKER a "single" frequency will lose/fail any form of proper ID. Multi-freq (SMF) does not suffer this problem nowhere near as bad.
Depth.......vs.......Depth + ID !!!!!!!! Big difference between the two!

glasartisan --

WHILE your soil is different from mine, your EMI is different from mine, etc., I can tell you that on the deepest quarters that the EQX can see in my test garden, in no way, shape, or form does my machine try to ID the quarter as single-digit VDI. The IDs are splattered, and some sweeps give just a chirp with NO VDI, but, never a consistent 7 to 9 VDI. I cannot say that in multiple, short, quick sweeps, there would NEVER be a 7 or 9 VDI show up on the screen, BUT, the majority of those "splattered" VDIs would be in the 20s and 30s...

If you are getting a CONSISTENT, REPEATABLE 7 to 9 VDI, my guess would be that it's possible you have a tiny piece of rusty iron very near to your quarter -- most likely above it. If I were you, I would re-bury a quarter at that same depth, in another location nearby, and check it. I would not be surprised if you won't detect that quarter quite as well, or as deep, as it will be "freshly buried." BUT -- bury it to whatever you find to be "fringe detection depth" for a newly buried quarter, and my guess is that you will find that it does not ID a consistent 7 to 9. You SHOULD see a good many 20s and 30s in there, in the "VDI splatter..."

Just my two cents, as I have never witnessed what you are describing on a fringe-depth quarter-type target, in any type of dirt, with my own or any of my hunting partners' Equinoxes.

Steve



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2022 12:36AM by steveg.

Good advice Steve. ((( I always assume folks absolutely sanitize a cubic-yard of soil.....to include using a large Rare Earth magnet.....,,,,,,,,.......... in prep's .......BEFORE burying a test-target. )))

I like to epoxy my targets on 3/4" PVC pipe.......cut to exacting lengths.......for absolute depth-control testing. (And they are also very easy to remove/reinstall/relocate).

NASA-Tom --

Understood! If he did "sanitize" the dirt, then I'm at a loss for that particular scenario that has been laid out...

Steve

When a deep (ID: 29) target stays in a narrow (7-9) ID range........ this is 'usually' an indices of mineralization.
IF there were particulate contaminant(s)....... like a small piece of a nail anywhere in close proximity of the deep Quarter.............as you rotate your body around the target whilst sweeping the coil. , . , . , . , . , . , "usually"....... the ID will 'splatter' in a much wider span. . . . . . . . . to include negative numbers..... all the way up to high positive numbers. In glasartisan's case........ the 'span' is very narrow; hence, my speculation of 'mineralization'.
His mineralization can't be TOO heavy......... because he IS able to detect the 14" deep target. (Just not with any ID accuracy).

In my case......... I have a clad dime epoxied to a 14.0" PVC (3/4", Schedule-40) pipe. It is EXACTLY 14.00" deep. VERY few detectors will even detect it. , . , . , . , . , . , especially with any form of accurate ID. Yet, it CAN be detected........and with very reasonable ID. This goes to show........ what minimum mineralization can exist........."can" a 14" deep dime be detected and ID'd.............and a host of other intel-gathering datapoints. It is SO easy for me to pull the PVC pipe.......... and plant it in other locations around the globe..........for testing/data-collection.
((( I actually have many PVC pipes .....cut to exacting lengths........,,,,,,,,,,.......... most with a Nickel or a clad Dime epoxied to these differing-length pipes. And WOW.....are they priceless tools!!! ))).

NASA-Tom, understood. Yes, ID splatter as opposed to a consistent 7-9 ID makes more sense, if it were a piece of nail. It's very interesting that mineralization could cause that. Apparently, it would be rather unique dirt? I've not experienced that kind of dirt before.

Steve

Thank you SteveG for your thoughts. Your #s are not getting pulled down like mine? What depth are you at with your quarter in the test garden? Is your mineralization mild? I would say Im certain that when I dug the hole for the quarter, I checked before I dug, while the hole was open I checked and certainly scanned the dirt going back in. Had the detector in all metal, clean. But I never used a rare earth magnet. Dont know how I could. After the first 6- 8 inches of top soil the rest is all clay here.
I do a 360 dance around that quarter, no negative #s and nothing above 10 VDI. Like I said it averages between 7-9 vdi with sometimes a 10 thrown in. The best mode for me is field 2 but single freq 4 is quieter, no emi unless it is silent and dont know about it. I still cant reach the quarter in 4 or 5 freq. The deepest modes are the gold mode where it IDs again at 7-9. And get this, in single freq 40 in gold mode 2 I get the quarter. No other single freqs will hit the quarter like the 40khtz.
I like your idea that I should be moving the test garden to a different location. Rebury the quarter. Just a little frozen tight currently. I have to get away from the EMI.
So Tom can I deduce then that I feel my mineralization is somewhat affecting the #s on the quarter but not entirely the culprit here because im getting good depth but that the knock out punch is really coming from that dam EMI, driving my VDIs into the single digits, lower than if EMI was not even there? But the question then is if EMI generally acts upon multi-frquency more so than single freq, why is it that I cant detect my quarter in 4 khtz and that mode is certainly quieter than the multi- freq modes? I understand that ID accuracy in single freq will be affected more so than when detecting in multi-freq. But Im not even getting a beep in the 4 or 5 freq. Thanks to all who have chimed in. Much appreciated.

glasartisan,

My soil is, I think it's fair to say, moderately mineralized. Red clay (iron oxides) predominates here. With some single-frequency machines, the iron in the dirt skews the ID downward, on a deep target. BUT -- with the Equinox, and with FBS detectors, this is not the case. It causes some loss of depth, and "splattered" IDs at depth, but DEFINITELY nothing like you are experiencing. With everything tuned perfectly, I can barely coax a chirp or two from a 10" deep quarter, with my Equinox. The deepest coin I've dug is in the 9 1/2" to 10" range, "in the wild" in this red Oklahoma dirt. Only with the Tarsacci have I been able to exceed 10".

As for your garden, if you checked the hole before you dug, and then scanned the dirt with a detector in all-metal mode as you put the dirt back in the hole, then to me, that would make me "reasonably" confident that there is not piece of rusted iron several inches above the coin, which -- along with NASA-Tom's point that if there were, it would more like result in a much larger range of VDI values, as opposed to a more consistent 7 to 9 as you describe -- makes me feel like my conjecture is not correct. I simply have no experience with the type of dirt that you must have, to force a multi-frequency machine to give a consistent, but very, very low VDI, for a high conductor like a quarter. That's beyond anything I have personally experienced. Part of me would want to wonder about a coil issue, but -- you get roughly correct VDI on the quarter UNTIL it reaches "fringe depth," correct?

Very interesting.

Steve

glasartisan........ "usually" EMI (silent ....or otherwise) ....... will "wide-span" splatter the ID's all over the board...........OR..........completely 'blank' the target (not detect it). When switching between single-frequencies....... it is fairly easy to see 'which' frequency is most affected by EMI......if the EMI is not silent. If the EMI is silent........ then only a test-garden will 'expose'.......BUT........ ONLY if you have a base-reference for THAT specific frequency ...on a specific conductive target. . . . . . which would THEN allow you to see the difference (performance loss).
Initially....... it's a little perplexing as to 'why' your best single frequency (4Khz or 5Khz) is failing to detect a high conductor target......of which that SPECIFIC frequency is pinnacle/resonant to/for that target (the quarter). But...... it is really leaning towards 'mineralization' (albeit ..... not too high)........ but enough to draw-down (and override) the actual ID of the quarter. Your mildly laced iron lateritic soil ...... is overriding the strength of the Quarter's signal. . . . . . and drawing the ID down .......closer towards the ID of the lateritic soil. As for 4Khz or 5Khz not even detecting the target. , . , . , . , . , . , . apparently, these lower single frequencies are MORE attenuated (shunted)........than their counterpart higher frequencies. (This is somewhat of a paradox; yet, soil can do weird things).
I DO still wonder ..... if you have a severe case of SILENT EMI; yet, I lean more towards mineralization.
steveg.......yes. A detector that works on the principle of 'time-domain' is much less affected by bad dirt.

glasartisan,

It sounds to me like normal behavior for a very deep high conductor in iron minerals.

A couple of things.

1) Iron minerals will push high conductor VDI over into the iron range on the detector. I think we all refer to the his as high conductor wrap around.

2) The higher the operating frequency, the faster and further into the iron range iron wrap will go as the starting VDI is closer to the high conductor boundary stop.

3) Adding distance enhances this phenomena.

In your ground, the wrap around for that target in those minerals at that depth has continued to "push" the target VDI not only across the high conductor barrier into iron but also on up further into the scale. The fact that 40 kHz does it and 4 kHz doesn't validates this.

Its great news as its means 1) no dead spot on phase shift boundary (or maybe just a small one) and 2) no built in catch all for wrap around. Its pretty excellent really.

Great informative post.

HH
Mike



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2022 10:23PM by Mike_Hillis.

Steve....... are you still in Milwaukee? Do you still have CZ-3D Ser# 11210355 ? How does the CZ-3D with 10.5" coil see the Quarter?

maybe you cld leave that test garden. and make a new one for comparison

Yes Tom, still here. No longer have the CZ-3D. I just was not using it enough, so I sold it. I sure wish now that I had it for comparison.
Tom, I like the idea of gluing your targets on the end of 3/4 PVC. Are you just pushing them into your soil then at the predetermined depth? Do you enter the soil at 90 degrees or on a 45 degree angle so as the soil is not as disturbed under the coil? You must have sandy loamy soil, easily pushed in. That would never work here. After 6-8 inches of top soil its all clay here. I guess I would have to hammer it in. If that would even work.
Thanks Mike for your thoughts but I lost you when you started talking about the validation of the single 40 freq getting the quarter over the 4 freq? Why is that great news? What is a dead spot on phase shift boundary? And why is it that on the higher operating frequency, the faster and further into the iron range iron wrap will go? The starting VDI is closer to the high conductor boundary stop you say? I just air tested a quarter inside, just too cold outside. Im getting a VDI# of 27-28 in park 1 multi freq. And single 4 freq at 29-30 VDI. Thanks everyone for your thoughts, Steve

Moving an earth magnet (350#) through your soil will open your eyes to how many particles it attracts. . . .. When I do that in my soil it covers the entire magnet. I have to pinch it off the magnet. Ask yourself what this stuff does to the detectors capabilities.

Steve....... I have a very long-shank screwdriver that I hammer into the ground....... and then 'waller' out the hole.....just wide enough to shove the 3/4" PVC pipe into the ground. I usually end up having to hammer the PVC into the ground a bit anyway. Straight down into the ground. Not at a 45-deg...... or even a side-wall insertion. (Now) .... simply straight down into the ground.

Steveo...... yes, the 350-lb pull Rare Earth magnet is quite the eyeopener. All the little flecks/flakes of rust. (((The Tarsacci's time-domain architect/platform somewhat ignores these contaminants))).

NASA Tom Do you fill the PVC pipe with like soil or leave it void?
Also regarding using a strong magnet to purify a test bed; I can see doing this to remove man made iron bits, But on the new Iron ore red dirt test bed I am finishing up, I only removed the man made iron. It is still full of natural pebbles & bits that Will stick to the magnet. I left them as that is the natural conditions I often hunt in. Should start testing in it soon.

Chris

Steve,

I live in a different part of the USA so my ground is different than the coral sands of Florida and detecting in medium to high mineralization is the normal state of affairs, not the exception. Iron minerals lift high conductor TDI numbers. The stronger the iron mineralization the faster this lift happens.

Metal detectors TID ranges have a low end (ferrous starting point on your TID, normally a 1, and a non-ferrous high end stopping point, what every your TID range stops at. Doesn't matter what the scale is. Could be 1 to 60. Could be 1 to 99, Could be -95 to +95.. Point being here is that this isn't really a linear line. Its a circle. Using a a TID scale of 1 to 60 for the example....TID 1 and TID 60 are not far apart on the circle. The reality is that they are right next to each other. Almost as close as 1 is to 2.

I say they are almost as close because the design engineer will typically build in a little buffer to try and keep 60 and 1 apart as long as possible because of how iron minerals affect the phase shift. Sometimes there is also a dead spot between the 60 and 1 where it just blanks. No id, no audio no nothing.

When the iron mineralization lifts the target id, it can lift it high enough that it will pass the highest VDI number and roll over into the starting numbers of the scale. Once the target's TID passes 60, it doesn't just stop, it rolls over and starts again.

Operating frequency also affect this because operating frequency affects the phase shift numbers. Speaking specifically to high conductors.... Lower frequencies expand the higher conductor phase TID range and you can get a greater resolution in high conductor numbers. In other words a quarter will respond further away from the 60 TID. Higher operating frequencies compress the high conductor TID range. In other words a quarter will respond closer to the 60 TID.

Result is that higher operating frequencies used in iron mineralization will push high conductive targets over and across that 60/1 TID boundary faster than a lower operating frequency will. This is one of the reasons the detector designer will try to normalize target TID numbers across frequencies.

I deal with this on a regular basis. Your 14" test bed quarter TID results seem to act the way I would expect it to, if your detector is really picking up the quarter.

HH
Mike

Mike,

While I was confused with your first post, everything you said in that second one, made total sense, EXCEPT...I have never had a deep high conductor on the machines I use, register into the foil range. You are saying "you deal with this on a regular basis," and that glasartisan's TID results are "as you would expect." But I have never seen this. Now, one could say that I have never seen it BECAUSE I don't dig low VDI targets at depth very often, so I "don't know" what I "don't know." BUT -- I can say for certain that in my iron-mineralized test garden, neither of the fringe-depth quarters, clad or silver, behave that way (solid foil ID). Plenty of high-tone chirps and high VDIs mixed in with some iron grunts and very low-end iron VDIs...but NOT any form of "consistent" VDI into the foil range...

Is this just a difference in the dirt that you hunt, vs. the dirt that I hunt, or is it a difference between a single freq, and multi freq, or ??

One thing I can say, is that way back when I had an F70 with concentric coil, about 12 years ago, I do recall that any deep high conductor would read a solid "13" on the VDI scale...hmm...but that was a single freq. machine, and since then, I've used almost exclusively FBS or Multi-IQ...and they do NOT behave the way glasartisan described...

Steve

Thank you Mike for that explanation. I think I understand it better now. Especially when you said think of the scale not in terms of linear but circular. Yes 60 is right next to 1 in a circle. So when someone says that iron that is buried next to a high conductor coin, it will tend to pull the VDI #s down, what is really happening is that the VDI #s are rolling forward past the highest # and into the starting low #s on the scale. Not really going backwards towards the lower #s?
So if we use the new Deus 2 for instance. Dont know if you been following some of the videos. Their scale I think starts in the negative #s and goes to 99. If Im running in one of their beach programs I assume then there will be some compression there and the high conductors will show up closer to 99. That mode being weighted towards higher freqs. And if I run in their high conductors program I will see better resolution and the VDI #s will be slightly lower. This mode weighted towards high conductors. I dont know if there is a normalize off and on like the Deus 1 had. From the videos I have seen it sure looks like dime, quarter and half are only within 1 or 2 VDI #s apart from each other. Very compressed. Wish they could of expanded that scale. I guess you wouldn't dare knock out a 98 or 99 for iron wrap around. Thank you Mike for the well said explanation, Steve

It's been my experience with deep high-conductors in mineralized soils that TID is down-averaged toward iron. The problem with wrap-around for me was always with iron nails, where the bent portion or pointy tips cause a high TID response or chirp while also a low grunt. The high-tone chirps are not repeatable and distinctly not similar to non-ferrous, but bothersome all the same. I've never tested if a high-conductor might up-average across the TID boundary into iron. If it does happen I'd expect to get enough solid high-tones to dig anyway and I'd assume the low-tones were nearby iron rather than wrap-around from the non-ferrous target. But it would be interesting to test and find out.