Equinox 800 & iron falsing

What FE2 & sensitivity settings are effective to cut out (or reduce) the high tone falsing of square nails in mineralized ground?

Del --

This is something you and I have talked about quite a bit.

I'm ready to conclude that there isn't a way to do it, on this (or many other) platforms.

At this point, I'd ask the question in this way -- what DETECTOR is effective at cutting out or reducing the high-tone falsing of square nails in mineralized ground...

This issue is my NEMESIS.

Steve

Steve---Like I was telling you---I find my F-19 very effective in this regard in the areas I hunt.----But this Equinox is a bear!----I keep thinking I haven't got something set up right---tried everything I can think of.---All that falsing is just plain irritating.-----I think it is a great detector except for that.----Wanted to "reach out" for other members ideas regarding this.-----Thanks------Del

reduce the sens, that will help. I set mine to 16 in the iron, FE 6. My 2 cents.

coinspader Wrote:
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> reduce the sens, that will help. I set mine to 16
> in the iron, FE 6. My 2 cents.

I have already lowered my sensitivity as low as 15--that didn't help.----Haven't raised the FE as high as 6--I'll try that.----Thanks

D&P-OR Wrote:
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> What FE2 & sensitivity settings are effective to c
> ut out (or reduce) the high tone falsing of square
> nails in mineralized ground?

I am guessing you are talking about audio splash hunting in discrimination?

If so, try hunting in horseshoe mode. This will identify that iron better. Might even save some time toggling back and forth.

IMHO, Minelab's multi frequency isn't the best for heavy iron. The lower frequencies that are present like 5 and 10 are the worst about high toning in the iron. You will have better luck by using a higher single frequency like 15 or 20, and leaving the horseshoe on. You can turn the iron volume down so it doesn't drive you crazy. Also turn down sensitivity and raise your recovery speed to 6 or 7. Your not going to get any depth in a bed of nails. You are just hoping to see through a couple of them. The only problem is that there is NO iron bias in single frequency. It will still high tone on big or odd shaped iron, but you won't have the constant high tone falsing. This is why your F19 is so effective. It uses a 19khz single frequency.

It may seem counterintuitive..... but my methodology is to run F2 on '0'.
This increases 'falsing' by about 30%.
BUT
This increases audible intelligibility by several hundred percent.
Yes. Requires a bit of a learning-curve/skillset. BUT. Well worth it. Especially for unmasking coins in iron.

Good info guys---thanks for your responses.----I'm for sure going to try these suggestions.----Anyone else that wants to wade in on this--I'm "all ears".

D&P-OR Wrote:
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> What FE2 & sensitivity settings are effective to c
> ut out (or reduce) the high tone falsing of square
> nails in mineralized ground?



Del,

Have you tried other programs with different frequency weightings? Perhaps your current selection isn't your best choice.

Hope you and Patsy are doing well. Spring is coming.

Rich

------------------------------------------------------------------

Just one more good target before I go.

D&P,

I ran a ton of different settings on the Equinox 800 when I first received it. I was having "fun" playing with the different settings. I learned many things about the Equinox but I was using much faster of everything for settings. The biggest eye opener is when TomD mentioned to run F2-0 and use a slow recovery speed. Now, I mainly use 4 for recovery. As crazy as it sounds I also cranked up my sensitivity to a minimum of 23. Once I employed TomD's recommendations, I started making incredible finds. The first two seasons with the Equinox, I mainly concentrated on one park and devoted evening and weekends to hunting it. In short, I spent an enormous amount of time here. At this park I found several coins from the 1700's, 146 silvers, an 1803 Spanish 8 Reale, IH pennies,shield nickels and around 200 wheat pennies. This was at a park field I and many others have hunted for many, many years. I was and still am speechless over the coins that came out of this park field. What made the difference? Slowing my scan speed to a crawl, slower recovery, keeping my sensitivity up and investigating iffy signals. To get to your question: As I learned the Equinox at this park and came across iron, I most certainly dug my share of iron with the following settings: Park1 - Multi, sensitivity- 23-25, 50 tones, IB - F2-0, Recovery- 4, all-metal mode. However I learned a great deal in how iron behaves. Take time and hover over a suspect target and listen intensively. Is the target "holding together" ? or does it fall apart and "bleed out"? Even if the target is "holding together" but very loosely like it wants to dissipate, I dig it. I have been awarded by many of the above finds. When you hear the iron "bleeding out / dissipating and does not hold together, its always been iron for me. Do I still get fooled? Sure I do but its minimal.

Thanks again Tom for sharing your wisdom and settings.



NASA-Tom :
It may seem counterintuitive..... but my methodology is to run F2 on '0'. This increases 'falsing' by about 30%. BUT This increases audible intelligibility by several hundred percent.
Yes. Requires a bit of a learning-curve/skillset. BUT. Well worth it. Especially for unmasking coins in iron.

What FE2 & sensitivity settings are effective to cut out (or reduce) the high tone falsing of square nails in mineralized ground



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2022 10:06PM by EPL II.

EPL........you're welcome. I still STRONGLY recommend a Target Recovery Response speed of '2'......and a slow sweep-speed. BUT....... there is a caveat. SOME dirt (with certain minerals) may require a slightly higher recovery speed........ so as to stabilize its instability-inducing 'chattiness'. I would hope you NEVER have to go above a Target Recovery Response speed of '4'. (Too much depth will be lost).

Reminds me of the love for square nails that the CZ 3D had. Found that it would disappear when you circled the target. Nails would also move when pin pointed and end up in the side of the plug. Old school when there was no iron bias setting lol

steveg Wrote:
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>
>
> At this point, I'd ask the question in this way --
> what DETECTOR is effective at cutting out or reduc
> ing the high-tone falsing of square nails in miner
> alized ground...
>

There are plenty of machines where you can effortlessly knock out nails (even bent ones, even in minerals, etc....). Like with my Explorer II, I *never* dig nails. Even larger caste iron is quite tell-tale.

HOWEVER, the devil is in the details : It is not good at "seeing through" and un-masking. Doh ! Hence if a nail is covering a coin, you'll likely miss the coin. Versus other machines give you a fighting chance to know that something is hiding in amongst the nails.

This is just the inherent downside of machines that are good at iron-see-through, is that they'll tend to get fooled. There's some single frequency Tesoros and such that will not get fooled, yet do a good job at seeing through iron/nails : Like the Silver Sabre, the Bandido, etc.... But their depth is wimpy, and they lack the whistles and bells of the Nox.

I've seen my buddies do well with iron-see through, using their 800s, at a gold rush site . But yes : As they "grasped for straws", they would start to get fooled by certain iron objects. They knew the audio tricks , but .. "nagging doubts" kept them digging a bunch "just to be sure", doh !

I find with a recovery of 2 there seems to be a "lag" between the time a scan over a target and hear the audio. No matter coil scan speed, I can not get the two to "line up"
I used a recovery of 3 several times last year and this seems the lowest I can go where things "line up" for me. Utilizing a recovery of 3 is my plan this year.

To answer your question, I never go above 4. I am curious to know, what have you discovered (if anything) as far as depth loss between recovery speeds? For example what would be the difference in depth loss between a recovery response of 2 and 3 or 3 and 4?

Lastly, how many seconds of scan / sweep speed do you employ with a recovery of 2? With a recovery of 4 and one sweep of the coil in front of me, I use about 4 seconds sometimes 5 depending on what I encounter for target density.

Thank you for all your advice and tips! - Jim






NASA-Tom Wrote:
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EPL........you're welcome. I still STRONGLY recommend a Target Recovery Response speed of '2'......and a slow sweep-speed. BUT....... there is a caveat. SOME dirt (with certain minerals) may require aslightly higher recovery speed........ so as to stabilize its instability-inducing 'chattiness'. I would hope you NEVER have to go above a Target Recovery Response speed of '4'. (Too much depth will be lost).

Jim........ I notice approximately a 0.2" increase on a dime......when I jump Target Recovery Response Speed from '3'.....down to '2'. This makes for Target Recovery Response Speed '3' FRINGE targets......to then become "no-questions" = loud & clear with TRR of '2'.
Same goes with dropping TRR of '4'..... down to TRR of '3'. . . . . . . . . about a 0.2" gain in depth on a clad dime.
Yes....... you can deduce that dropping TRR of '4' ...down to TRR of '2'.,.,., gives you about 0.4" extra depth on a clad dime.

Now. The TRR scale is not quite linear. Dropping a Target Recovery Response speed of '5'.....down to a TRR of '4'....... gains you about 0.5" on a clad dime. Hence; "WHY" I recommend against going above '4' with Target Recovery Response speed.....if dirt/conditions allow.

BUT....... I FULLY understand that your dirt becomes an allergenic to your EQX when you drop TRR down to '2'. In your case...... a TRR of '2' causes your unit to NOW 'see' the dirt as a (weak) target! Florida dirt is inert.....and does not express this problem/phenomenon; yet, I have had dirt (Georgia) whereby...... a TRR of '2' and a TRR of '3' was total overload/failure....... and a TRR of '4' STARTED to settle the unit down. TRR 5..... and the unit purred like a kitten. (((Remember to re-Ground Balance..... each time you make a TRR change.,.,.,.,., even though this is not in the manual))).

On the EQX-800 ...... there is a symbiotic harmonious electronic synchronicity/quiescence ..... with a TRR of approx '4'.

Previously....... I would sweep a coil at approx 3-Feet/Second.
Now I sweep at a speed of 2-feet/Second. ((( Probably because I have been detecting extra trashy areas ))).

Also noteworthy: In nearly all cases...... a slower Target Recovery Response speed setting does not necessarily stop you from detecting AND separating two (or more) targets that are close together. If the targets can be seen independently.....at a higher TRR speed.,.,.,.,.,., they can also be seen at a slower sweep speed with a slower TRR. Remember..... a slower TRR has greater depth...and a stronger signal strength....subsequently: lending to a better ID.

Gosh. ALL of this data should be on the large EQX thread....... so as to consolidate!!!

Tom when you say you had to change the trr to 5 for the hot Georgia dirt how was the machine behaving with the lower trr speed? Was it constant ground feed back of -7s and -8s with the horseshoe button pushed?

Yes...... for the most-part. It was a barrage of -8....through..... +1 ....and sometimes +2 ID's/false chatters created by the ground minerals.

That's exactly what I encounter here where I hunt but I have just been dealing with the noise. Will having the machine set like that possibly mask good targets? Or will the audio still tell you good target from bad through the noise?

Meaning is it still worthwhile dealing with the feedback from the ground to possibly gain greater depth?

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Also noteworthy: In nearly all cases...... a slowe
> r Target Recovery Response speed setting does not
> necessarily stop you from detecting AND separating
> two (or more) targets that are close together. If
> the targets can be seen independently.....at a hig
> her TRR speed.,.,.,.,.,., they can also be seen at
> a slower sweep speed with a slower TRR. Remember..
> ... a slower TRR has greater depth...and a stronge
> r signal strength....subsequently: lending to a be
> tter ID.
>
>

Tom , I enjoyed your post. Good material.

On my Explorer II, it only has "fast and slow" for recovery speed (ie.: only 2 options/settings). And my experience between this, and my prior Whites models, was that faster recovery speeds did not necessarily mean loss-of-depth (depending on someone's definitions). All it meant was that you had to pay closer-attention to the beeps. NOT "loss of depth" (if you had the right ear). At least this was my experience.

So when I tried the Nox, I made the mistake of immediately opting for a fast recovery speed. Since the location I was testing it on was a junky turf parking strip . And when it came time to test over flagged signals, I was immediately struck by the wimpy depth of the Nox 800. Ie.: my Exp. II got the signals much better/deeper. But when I went to post my observations (back when the Nox was first getting feedback posts from everyone), I was told that I should have lowered the recovery speed to 3 . Not 4 and 5 where I'd been sampling it at.

And lo & behold, I discovered that the Nox does indeed suffer depth loss and gain at the various speeds (3 vs 4). Unlike other detectors that I was used to.

And yes, by slowing it down to 3 I did not notice much problem with added masking, or loss-of-separation. Since, go figure, the machine is renowned already for ability in this department. Perhaps 4 is better for spots when depth or TID cherry-picking is not the objective. But for spots where depth is the issue, persons should not be afraid of 3.

Now as to whether or not I felt it to be superior for depth and cherry-picking in junky turf, is another topic.

Tom_in_CA Wrote:
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> NASA-Tom Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> >

> Now as to whether or not I felt it to be superior for depth and cherry-picking in junky turf, is another topic.

Repeat after me "the Nox is far superior to the Dino2K" haha

Pedlar mills.......The EQX is somewhat of an interesting platform/Operating-System. It performs best when run 'hot'........ but, with stipulations. It likes to be run 'hot'...... and JUST BARELY into a very slight amount of instability. This is fully applicable to running Sens just BARELY into a little chatter. . . . . . running Target Recovery Response speed just BARELY too low . . . . . . . . . running Iron Bias just barely too low.......
etc...........

If you run the EQX a bit deeper into instability..... to the point where you have mild (vague/interpretive word!) chatter...... the EQX starts to lose more performance than suspected. Beware..... be careful.

Tom.......... If I remember correctly....,,,,,,, on the Exp-II: FAST and SLOW were equiv to a Target Recovery Response speed of '6' and '2', respectively.

Tom_in_CA Wrote:
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> There are plenty of machines where you can effortlessly knock out nails (even bent ones, even in minerals, etc....). Like with my Explorer II, I *never* dig nails. Even larger caste iron is quite tell-tale.

I don't think I would say *never* I'm pretty sure I see at least a few nails from each hunt, for sure other types of iron.

At the end of the day, I think digging a certain amount of iron is just part of the game. Except for larger iron bits like chisels, axe heads, etc. which oddly tend to hit around a 13 on the EQX800, I don't think I dig any more nails then I have with any other machine, and when I do it's typically because I'm grasping for straws digging the ultra iffy in search of the goods. To be honest, in my experience, it almost never pays to dig the ultra iffy stuff, the ROI has been almost nil.

Thanks Tom this is helping me a ton. So next thing I wonder is in your opinion what gets sacrificed first for stability? Recovery speed or sensitivity?

THAT is determined (primarily) by the magnitude-of-severity of your dirt!
In most cases....... I would sacrifice a bit of Sens......in order to gain Target Recovery Response speed: stability.

Tom,
I have never GB'd in multi-frequency when I changed TRR speed but I will start this hunting season. What seems like such "small adjustments / increments" in TRR speed truly adds up to depth loss.

I am learning and understanding more concerning TRR speed. Thank you. Not only we are dealing with depth increase or loss based on adjustment, but also the ability to adjust TRR speed to hunt in more mineralized /contaminated soils. I understand what you are explaining about signal strength. I remember running much higher speeds such as 8 and hearing a whisper of a high tone in iron contaminated soil. I would drop the TRR speed one at a time. By the time I reached a TRR speed of 4, the target sounded loud and a much better ID displayed.(the old Sovereign wiggle over the target truly helps with providing a better ID. At least it does for me) Since I have implemented your recommended settings, I have located a tremendous amount of old coins and relics. I sincerely appreciate your time in answering my questions and providing priceless information! - Jim


NASA-Tom Wrote:
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> Jim........ I notice approximately a 0.2" increase on a dime......when I jump Target Recovery Response Speed from '3'.....down to '2'. This makes for Target Recovery Response Speed '3' FRINGE targets......to then become "no-questions" = loud & clear with TRR of '2'.Same goes with dropping TRR of '4'..... down to TR R of '3'. . . . . . . . . about a 0.2" gain in depth on a clad dime.Yes....... you can deduce that dropping TRR of '4'...down to TRR of '2'.,.,., gives you about 0.4" extra depth on a clad dime. Now. The TRR scale is not quite linear. Dropping aTarget Recovery Response speed of '5'.....down to a TRR of '4'....... gains you about 0.5" on a clad dime. Hence; "WHY" I recommend against going above '4' with Target Recovery Response speed.....if dirt/conditions allow.
BUT....... I FULLY understand that your dirt becomes an allergenic to your EQX when you drop TRR down to '2'. In your case...... a TRR of '2' causes your unit to NOW 'see' the dirt as a (weak) target! Florida dirt is inert.....and does not express this problem/phenomenon; yet, I have had dirt (Georgia) whereby...... a TRR of '2' and a TRR of '3' was total overload/failure....... and a TRR of '4' STARTED to settle the unit down. TRR 5..... and the unit purred like a kitten. (((Remember to re-Ground Balance..... each time you make a TRR change.,.,.,.,., even though this is not in the manual))).On the EQX-800 ...... there is a symbiotic harmonious electronic synchronicity/quiescence ..... with a TRR of approx '4'.
Previously....... I would sweep a coil at approx 3-Feet/Second. Now I sweep at a speed of 2-feet/Second. ((( Probably because I have been detecting extra trashy areas ))).
Also noteworthy: In nearly all cases...... a slower Target Recovery Response speed setting does not necessarily stop you from detecting AND separating two (or more) targets that are close together. Ifthe targets can be seen independently.....at a higher TRR speed.,.,.,.,.,., they can also be seen at a slower sweep speed with a slower TRR. Remember..... a slower TRR has greater depth...and a stronger signal strength....subsequently: lending to a better ID.

Gosh. ALL of this data should be on the large EQX thread....... so as to consolidate!!!

Cal_cobra Wrote:
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>
>
> I don't think I would say *never* I'm pretty sure
> I see at least a few nails from each hunt, for sur
> e other types of iron.
>
>

Bow down and repeat after me : "Tom_in_CA repeatedly kicks my #ss with his dino2k".

(now I gotta work extra hard this coming Sunday to not get spanked !! >< )

Tom_in_CA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cal_cobra Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> >
> > I don't think I would say *never* I'm pretty sur
> e
> > I see at least a few nails from each hunt, for s
> ur
> > e other types of iron.
> >
> >
>
> Bow down and repeat after me : "Tom_in_CA repeate
> dly kicks my #ss with his dino2k".
>
> (now I gotta work extra hard this coming Sunday to
> not get spanked !! >< )

Well----One of y'alls gonna have a sore butt (I'll bet)!!

Tom I played with settings on my equinox today for a few minutes at my house found it interesting. To get the machine to not react to ground feedback I found that to run a recovery of 5 I had to run the sensitivity at 15. To run a recovery of 4 I had to go to 13 sensitivity. I will see tomorrow what I have to do to run recovery at 3. So now do you think it's worth the reduction in power to have the ground feedback gone or am I better off dealing with the noise and running hotter. Just curious as to your opinion