MINELAB MANTICORE: DATA & PERFORMANCE

Guys...... I'm going to use this thread to consolidate all of the data/results/questions/field-performance of the MC (Manticore) right here.

Because this is our new baby......and it's not quite released yet, , , , we are still 'protective' with how much data is disseminated. BUT........this will change with time. There's still a few things we are buttoning up.

Just curious, when you say "we", do you mean we as in your were involved with testing, or we as in you are employed by Minelab? I know you were involved with testing a lot of Minelab machines, but this sounded more in depth than that.

Chris..... pretty much every developmental aspect of the product; yes, to include field-testing. But...... one thing I am not a part of is.... marketing. My weak spot! Keep me focused in the 'engineering' booth.

Dan..... you ask about the benefits of 'expanded iron ID range'. Manticore has a -99 to 0 iron ID range. Because most of us have never been exposed (had the tools/availability) to a high-resolution iron ID range....... we would (unsuspectingly) never know just exactly 'what' it would/could do for us.
If you are an Archaeologist ...... there's tremendous benefit. Iron implements make up a very large portion of archaeological interest. With this expanded iron ID range.... here are some of the benefits:
* It is SO easy to tell the decomposition-rate/status of the iron you are dealing with.
* If there are 2 generations of iron in the ground........say........ 200-year old iron nails........and 450-year old iron nails.,.,.,.,.,., their decomposition status/rate will be different....and present a very distinct, discernable large ID delta/difference.....that you will see in the Manticore iron ID range.
* Different generations of mankind....have produced different types of iron. Annealed, alloyed, wrought, cast......etc........etc. They all have different conductive bandwidth spans...... that now can be delineated with Manticore.
* When you detect unfamiliar/new territory...... the 'type' of iron and the 'age' of the iron implements. , . , . , can really dictate the era of the area. Hammered square nails,,, cut square nails,,, round (modern) nails ..... all have a different conductive bandwidth that can only be expressed in an expanded iron ID range. (Can you start to see attributes to a hobby detectorist yet).

On the beach....... expanded iron ID is important:
* Stainless jewelry ID's on the high end of the iron ID range.,.,.,.,., usually in the -14 to 0 ID iron range.
* Stainless Swiss Army knifes, Stainless watches...... stainless hardware is in that -18 to 0 iron ID range.
* Nuts, bolts, screws, nails, bobby-pins, fish hooks........ are in the iron ID range of -60 to -20 iron ID range.
* Natural recurring ironstone ID's -98 or -99.
You will see a 'pattern'.... that is very educational/tuitional.

IF you could figure out a way to wire a EQX coil to the new Manticore...... the Manticore would blow/burn it out. Soooo...... coils are NOT interchangeable. (There's also other reasons for incompatibility).
The coil has tighter tolerances....and more stuff in it; hence, soooo........it must be built heavier-duty. The extra 2 heli-arc'd fore-aft curved ribs are not very hydrodynamic; yet, are a necessity.
Coil ears. Would you rather break a few-hundred dollar coil? Or break a $50 lower shaft ((of which NOW has the coil ears on the shaft....instead of the coil)).
Yes..... Sens now goes up to '35'. And yes..... a EQX Sens of '21'..... is fairly equiv to a Sens of '21' on MC.

Manticore is indeed one entire generation (next-gen) above EQX.
For the near-forseeable future..... EQX will remain on the market. EQX is $1000..... MC is $1500. Differing price-points.

If you have an EQX......and you acquire a MC.....,,,,,, the 'transition' will be very comfortable. (Familiar....comfort-zone. , . , . , . , . and by no accident).

A long time ago...... I stated EQX was a continuous/ongoing product AND process. Here it is! Manticore!

50% more power to the coil does not equate to 50% more depth.
There is something else..... that helps make up for this. And..... since it is in a video....that has gone viral......I will share/expound:
One (of the two) MAJOR points-of-focus was MEGA MITIGATION OF EMI.
Sooooo........ without divulging too much.,.,.,.,., you will notice something in the video(s)..... that MC has a Noise Cancel feature that is Press-AND-HOLD the EMI Noise Cancel button....and it will continuously SIMULTANEOUSLY search ALL Noise Cancel channels ALL at the SAME TIME.
There are other ADDITIONAL things we've done to mitigate EMI. But.........in a nutshell....... as an example..... if you are hunting an area whereby you could run EQX on Sens '22'.,.,.,., MC's better EMI mitigation abilities will allow you to run Sens on '26'. Don't think this is a big deal??? Go back to any of your 'hunted out' sites that had some EMI....... and try again!!! Then 'reevaluate' !!!

I have a ton I want to say/share about Manticore; yet, I am reluctant/apprehensive .... as the product is NOT quite complete. I am even apprehensive about what data has ALREADY been released....and the product is still not on the market yet. Other Mfr's are keenly watching (copying).....circumnavigating around patents.

Thanks NASA Tom, I look forward to the perspective on this. Learning & understanding is what I enjoy about this forum & it's members.

Chris

Hi Tom

I think most of us are IDing Stainless with the Equinox above the "0" point now. So, what you're saying Stainless will now ID at 0 to -14?

Questions

It would seem difficult because most stainless on the Equinox IDs in the gold range. Any hint as to how the Manticore can take a metal that IDs in the gold range and now make it 0 to-14? AND Still keep gold +1 and better???? THIS, would appear to be quite a breakthrough.

I am guessing that Stainless 304 will ID different than 316?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/30/2022 02:33PM by midalake.

midalake..... Stainless annular items (like stainless rings) will still ID just like gold.....as a non-ferrous. Non-annular stainless items are where you will see a "ID span" in the iron range. You can also 'push' deep into the Iron Bias.....and help stainless become positive-ID non-ferrous numbers.... if you choose.

* EQX charge cord (and reprogramming/updates cord) is interchangeable with MC.
* Even with a 99-point non-ferrous ID range..... targets (including deeper ones) will still ID 'lock-on' fairly well. Not much ID 'bounce'. Jagged objects will ID 'bounce' ... especially when you rotate around the object....due to differing jagged-edge ...coil approach-angle... exposure.
* You can tap the Noise Cancel button .... and MC will Simultaneously run all Noise Cancel channels at the same time..... and select the best channel....in about 2-1/2 seconds. OR..... you can press and HOLD the Noise Cancel button......for as long as you want......which will provide you a better 'capture' of differing interfering frequencies......giving MC a better overall aggregate picture of what is in the air. If you hold the Noise Cancel button down long enough....... you will see the unit start to 'lock on' to one (maybe 2) N.C. channels the best.

* There is only ONE button to push..... to enter into ONE menu..... whereby.... ALL settings are presented.....on ONE page. ---K.I.S.S. theory fully employed!
Whilst I love the Deus-II...... you can push several buttons......enter into several incremental/partial settings.......and need to push OTHER buttons ...in order to access OTHER settings. In theory..... it may sound/look good.,.,.,.,.,., but in reality...... it is not. And some of the 'needed-to-access' menu's....are in not-so-intuitive locations.

NASA-Tom --

You just did a data dump, that is going to take me awhile to really think through. WOW!

A few questions though. First, two you haven't yet mentioned...

1. Will the Manticore present any improvements over the EQX (or FBS) in terms of less "falsing" off of nails, ESPECIALLY square nails (which like to, at times, fairly skillfully mimic deep silver, of course). I am wondering if some of the "improved iron ID" you are discussing, includes better IDing of iron as "iron," and less masquerading as a "good target" at times.

2. Can you talk a bit more about the audio, and how it's been "nuanced" for more "intelligibility," and yet will still be familiar to an EQX user? For instance, I ALWAYS run 50 tones, on the EQX, and ALWAYS ran "full tones" on the Explorer series, and on the CTX. BUT -- the audio, cued off of 40 or 50 VDI numbers (one tone per number) would be quite different if you run "full tones" on a machine with 200 points of resolution. I guess what I'm asking is, what can you tell us about the audio of the unit?

And now, I have two questions for elaboration on things you HAVE mentioned...

1. You said 21 sens on Manticore = 21 sens on the Equinox, BUT, that the Manticore sens goes as high as 35. I imagine that with better EMI mitigation, that allows higher sensitivity to be run, and hence, Manticore allowing higher sens settings. But 35 seems amazingly hot...what is the highest you've been able to run it, on the edge of "crazy," without extreme audio fatigue (obviously site dependent)?

2. You said EMI mitigation was "one of" the "two" major points of focus... can you tell us what the other one was?

If any of these things can't yet be discussed, I get it...

Thanks!

Steve

Tom thanks for all of your info and research into different detectors and taking the time to inform us of your findings. I'm going to ask a question that may be a little premature but is for me and my area of hunting the main one. If you had to pick a non pulse detector for 3 to 5 bar dirt old house sites which one would it be? Should the manticore be top for that?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/30/2022 04:11PM by Pedlar mills.

The expanded iron range does sound exciting if I am understanding it correctly. A lot of detectors will lump all size iron together in condensed ID ranges. There are a lot of desirable iron targets for relic hunters. Previously the most used method of finding those was to run an all metal mode where you could get a sense of the size of the object. And that in itself, brings on a whole new level of ear fatigue. The tackling of EMI also sounds exciting. I just hope that is part of the project that is still being worked on, aka "buttoned up" because to me, what I have saw in the videos thus far, show the machine to be very chatty.

Exactly what I thought---appeared to be a very "chatty" machine------Daniel Tn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The expanded iron range does sound exciting if I a
> m understanding it correctly. A lot of detectors
> will lump all size iron together in condensed ID r
> anges. There are a lot of desirable iron targets f
> or relic hunters. Previously the most used method
> of finding those was to run an all metal mode wher
> e you could get a sense of the size of the object.
> And that in itself, brings on a whole new level of
> ear fatigue. The tackling of EMI also sounds exci
> ting. I just hope that is part of the project tha
> t is still being worked on, aka "buttoned up" beca
> use to me, what I have saw in the videos thus far,
> show the machine to be very chatty.

D&P-OR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Exactly what I thought---appeared to be a very "ch
> atty" machine------Daniel Tn Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The expanded iron range does sound exciting if I
> a
> > m understanding it correctly. A lot of detector
> s
> > will lump all size iron together in condensed ID
> r
> > anges. There are a lot of desirable iron targets
> f
> > or relic hunters. Previously the most used metho
> d
> > of finding those was to run an all metal mode wh
> er
> > e you could get a sense of the size of the objec
> t.
> > And that in itself, brings on a whole new level
> of
> > ear fatigue. The tackling of EMI also sounds ex
> ci
> > ting. I just hope that is part of the project t
> ha
> > t is still being worked on, aka "buttoned up" be
> ca
> > use to me, what I have saw in the videos thus fa
> r,
> > show the machine to be very chatty.

Yes. Not making excuses, but what if it was already 7 points of higher sensitivity? The sensitivity range of the Manticore is 1-35.

Minelab knew from day 1 after the Equinox release that EMI was an issue. AND they have been working on it for three years. I would HIGHLY doubt this machine is more susceptible to EMI........!

Well---I certainly hope it isn't MORE susceptible to EMI than the Equinox---which was excessive in that regard (IMO).-----midalake Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> D&P-OR Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Exactly what I thought---appeared to be a very "
> ch
> > atty" machine------Daniel Tn Wrote:
> > ------------------------------------------------
> --
> > -----
> > > The expanded iron range does sound exciting if
> I
> > a
> > > m understanding it correctly. A lot of detect
> or
> > s
> > > will lump all size iron together in condensed
> ID
> > r
> > > anges. There are a lot of desirable iron targe
> ts
> > f
> > > or relic hunters. Previously the most used met
> ho
> > d
> > > of finding those was to run an all metal mode
> wh
> > er
> > > e you could get a sense of the size of the obj
> ec
> > t.
> > > And that in itself, brings on a whole new leve
> l
> > of
> > > ear fatigue. The tackling of EMI also sounds
> ex
> > ci
> > > ting. I just hope that is part of the project
> t
> > ha
> > > t is still being worked on, aka "buttoned up"
> be
> > ca
> > > use to me, what I have saw in the videos thus
> fa
> > r,
> > > show the machine to be very chatty.
>
> Yes. Not making excuses, but what if it was alread
> y 7 points of higher sensitivity? The sensitiv
> ity range of the Manticore is 1-35.
>
> Minelab knew from day 1 after the Equinox release
> that EMI was an issue. AND they have been working
> on it for three years. I would HIGHLY doubt this m
> achine is more susceptible to EMI........!

Not a performance but a format question,,,any accommodation for those of us that prefer our own wired headsets?,,, an adapter like Nokta/Makro or a WM08?WM10 like the NOX/CTX versus the supplied wireless?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/30/2022 07:12PM by shoveler.

Correct. I can only answer...... what I feel is comfortable/safe to answer.....at this stage in the pre-release process.

* Yes..... there's enough Sens adjustment....that you can drive it into EMI also. It's just that....it takes a bit higher Sens settings to incur EMI.... as compared to EQX. EMI handling is far better than before; yet, not perfect. If we could RID EMI..... that would be the best-case-scenario.
* From the very start..... The Equinox was to be a: mid-line/mid-priced unit.
* From the very start..... The Manitcore is to be a medium-high line//medium-high priced unit.
* Although I do not care for a X-Y ID screen (audio is EVERYTHING to me)..... it does/will suit a function for many folks.
* The other major attribute of the unit....... I need to 'hold-in-reserve'...... for now. Now if someone asks Mark Lawrie the right question...... and he answers it.,.,.,.,.,., then I will consider expounding upon.
* On the expanded iron ID range: You will become more familiar with 'dating' (era) of unfamiliar sites...... by the age/decomposition status of iron..... and by the TYPE of iron implements in the ground.....via the iron ID conductive range.
* The highest I have been able to run Sens at some of my inland/turf/dirt sites...is at a Sens setting of '28'. ((And wow......what an eye-opener!)). This was over 2-years ago. I have been EXCLUSIVELY spending time in the salt...since then. Concentrating on salt performance. (((The more you can engineer into the handling of salt........ the more THAT will allow you to do with all the other settings......ie: boost the settings))).

I'm not willing to discuss 'audio' yet. . . . . with legitimate justification in testimony.

Pedlar..... if you live in 5-bar dirt..... I would still recommend the Tarsacci. BUT..... I have not 'fully' experienced (enough time in) bad dirt with MC; yet, there is some improvement in bad dirt handling capabilities.

* Just like the EQX...... you can plug in (1/8" stereo-jack) wired headsets into the MC.

Here's some more info from the Minelab website:

[www.minelab.com]

Understanding the iron / steel / non-ferrous range is a critical area of skill building for beginners. This is where a lot of the gold is. In my books I've tried to teach a bit about mediating this range in both your tuning and ID-ing skills. Its great to see a machine that has the ability to show this range graphically. Sounds like a very exciting detector. cjc



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2022 12:05AM by cjc.

Tom D. thanks for sharing all that you have, this is fascinating, and far more exciting news then any of the (mostly crappy) Manticore YouTube videos.

One big question I have is with this expanded iron range, how will the Manticore work in these 1800's sites where decomposed cans reign supreme? On the Equinox (or any detector really) they ID'd as a conductor, which wastes a lot of time digging in the field. Sure there's some tricks you can try to apply to better ID it, but at the end of the day, at most of these sites you want to dig all conductors, as even the iffy ones can be keepers.

Also I've noticed on my EQ800 that iron tools, such as axe heads, picks, chisels, hoes, etc., TID @ 13. I've always found that odd, although truth be told, I've dug some cool iron relics that came in @ 13. Any insight into if this will still be the case, or will this enhanced iron resolution/detection more properly ID these types of finds?

So many more questions come to mind, but I don't want to overload you any more then you already are

NASA-Tom,

Yes, I thought I might have been "digging a bit too deep" with my questions, at this point. I'll look forward to when you can more freely discuss, understanding the current limitations.

Thanks!

Steve

Dan...... THANKS for sharing that Minelab homepage marketing link! BUT...... I am SHOCKED that Minelab is putting out SO much information on Manticore..... well before its release. So much so...... that I no longer want to put out any more data on it. It's too premature...... and TOO compromising. (Which is my biggest concern!). Manticore has been such an in-the-blood collaborative effort ...... culminating into something that I DON'T want to see compromised. Soooooo......... I'm going silent.... for a while.

BUT..... if you guys want to keep posting here....about: concerns, questions, comments, ideas.... etc......... that is ALWAYS helpful. When I feel more comfortable..... I will commence posting again.... in regard to Manticore.

Hi there Tom, you have talked about the expanded iron range which really sounds exciting. Are you able to talk a bit about possibly expanding the high conductor VDI range? More resolution perhaps between the coin denominations, copper/silver coins/higher conductors. Where does a quarter fall?, half dollar?, silver dime? What VDI #s ?
You might have noticed that on the Deus 2 every high conductor is crammed all together upper scale between 91-98 VDI #s. Hope the MC has some good resolution there in that area. Thanks Tom, Steve

glasartisan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi there Tom, you have talked about the expanded i
> ron range which really sounds exciting. Are you ab
> le to talk a bit about possibly expanding the high
> conductor VDI range? More resolution perhaps betwe
> en the coin denominations, copper/silver coins/hig
> her conductors. Where does a quarter fall?, half d
> ollar?, silver dime? What VDI #s ?
> You might have noticed that on the Deus 2 every
> high conductor is crammed all together upper scale
> between 91-98 VDI #s. Hope the MC has some good re
> solution there in that area. Thanks Tom, Steve


Without giving actual numbers. Folks will like the spread of higher conductors on nonferrous ID scale. Examples, aluminum twist caps, zincolns, clad dime, silver dime, copper pennies, and quarters, etc. Far more spread out than on EQX and the other higher priced recent release.
I'll be quiet now. Let Tom do his thing here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2022 10:03AM by tnsharpshooter.

on display at the joan allen raly in kent this last weekend for users to try

It looks like the Manticore will be able to see thru iron much better. Maybe better than what's available now.

I also wonder with the 2d screen, what will aluminum foil look like compared to gold jewelry.

w2My two biggest questions are:

1) I know it's rated deeper in water than the Nox and IP68 rated, but that test is under 5' for 30 minutes. Have significant design improvements really been made targeting the waterproofing?

2) I want to know if it's compatible with the module that came with the Nox so I can continue to use my Sunray Golds without plugging directly into the machine.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2022 03:23PM by sumrtym.

hey Tom, curious if the WM-08 wireless module from the Equinox will work on MC?

also, Mark seemed to state that Bluetooth headphones (that work on Equinox) won't work on the MC? so the only wireless setup will be the proprietary headphones provided....correct?

oh, and at some point could you post up some of the better finds you've made during your part of the MC dev process...curious minds and all that....

cheers

The engineer doesn't seem to note the term "target trace" but does say "target shape". Can you elaborate? Thank you.

Dang it, Tom took his marbles and went home

Tom, does it have AUTO sensitivity with bias +1 to +3 like the CTX? Thanks

After doing some reading, it looks like there is no "auto sensitivity". Looks as though "target trace" is the #2 item that Tom isn't ready to talk about just yet....If it can tell me that I have a nail and a coin at beyond 7" in my bad soil, then put me on the order list.