MINELAB MANTICORE: DATA & PERFORMANCE

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> midalake........ Really deep/weak targets will not
> even 'paint' any markings on the 2D screen. IF it
> does...... it is very faint. The 2D screen mimics
> what the ID system generates..... in most cases.
> BUT......... there is hope yet. Here's a weird qui
> rk about MC: A Nickel may be audibly ID'ing as 'fe
> rrous'....... BUT......... many times the ID will
> generate a underlined '27' (which is a -27). A Nic
> kel ID's as a +27 if the signal-strength is strong
> enough to generate a ID. But...... if the Nickel i
> s too deep...... it is common the ID generated is
> a -27 !!!
>
> khouse........ There is a huge (non-linear) learni
> ng-curve to successfully dig one-way hits. There i
> s substantially less learning-curve to dig good 2-
> way hits. . . . . AND....... the learning-curve ne
> eded to understand the 1-way hits....... is in the
> education/tuition/embodiment of the 2-way hits! ((
> (Let me save you the pain & time)))!!!

Interesting on the number flip on deep nonferrous. [I experienced some of this with the Tarsacci as well].
In the real-world Tom with gold hunting this will be useless! If gold comes in on a scale for example 18-70 one cannot be chasing EVERY opposing -18 to -70 number. It is not realistic.

The FE "red line" isn't activated unless it's in am???---That's a real bummer!

Kingfish....... I am short on time...... but will answer all of your questions. Partial answer:
Fisher. My gut thinks: They are done. They will keep producing Big Box Store units; yet, will never produce another top-end flagship. Their last flagship was the F75...... which debuted in Sept 2009. I don't even know if the AQ is still on their plate. . . . . as a truly 'completed' project.

Interesting observations I've been meaning to share/impart:
Mode differences whilst hunting in thick nails:

All Terrain High Conductors = Overall.....less sensitive to iron. More iron falsing. Deeper. Unmasks slightly better.
All Terrain Low Conductors = Overall.....more sensitive to iron.,.,.,.,., yet, with better iron ID. Less iron falsing. Not quite as deep as All Terrain High Conductors. Adjacent target separates slightly better.

Both Modes have/present virtually no 'conductive blind-spots'. In other words: both Modes are very sensitive to BOTH: high conductors AND low conductors.

( I have another small increment of time ).

Kingfish......To finish answering your Fisher question: No........... I am not working with Fisher at present time. I think if they were working on another top-end/flagship........ there is a possibility they may holler at me.

Totally different topic that I should convey now........ or data will start to be lost (forgotten) =

Yesterday I hunted a site that had two different era's of activity on it. Fall of 1836 and Spring of 1870. My intent was to pull any/all non-ferrous targets out of the site. A Ferrous Limits Upper setting of '4' was total-fatigue/total-failure..... due to excessive iron falsing. Interestingly....... a Ferrous Limits Upper setting of '5' cleared nearly all iron falses. I have never seen/witnessed such a clear/sharp/dramatic delineation ....with such a small change/adjustment. VERY distinct.
Several masked non-ferrous targets presented a very smeared/constipated/blurry 'warble' audio. Although they may sound terrible.........it is very audibly clear that there is a non-ferrous co-locate. (((Again........ I head-to-head compared Deus-2 to Manticore...... on many of the masked targets))).
For some crazy reason........ this site had very few sheet-steel implements......,,,,,,,which allowed Ferrous Limits Lower.... to be set at '0'. (This is the 2nd time this has happened.....at a inland hunting site).
After (over half-day) hunting this site........ I left....and went to another site. In short order...... the Manticore was totally unusable/useless at the new site. . . . . with Upper '5' and Lower '0'. I immediately switched to Upper '8' and Lower '3'. Nearly all problems went away. Tuition! Education! (And food-for-thought).

Out of time!

NASA-Tom,

I am reading and re-reading each post you are making, and will do so multiple times again when I get my MC. I am not saying much (and others aren't either), as I suspect we are "absorbing," rather than "commenting." I KNOW that's the case, for me. I know sometimes you get discouraged when you spend all that time to detail your thoughts, and it SEEMS like people don't care. NOT true (again, at least in my case). PLEASE, as time permits, keep the info coming. EXTREMELY educational.

A couple of quick questions...

You said at the second site the MC was "totally unusable/useless" given your ferrous limits. SO, if the MC was "useless," but was "fixed" by adjusting ferrous limits, I ASSUME you meant theMC was unusable due to iron noise/falsing?"

Also, regarding your statements about how falsing was nearly ELIMINATED at the first site, switching from limits upper 4, to limits upper 5. You were using All-Terrain High Conductors?

Finally, the statement you made about the partially masked targets giving "smeared/constipated/blurry 'warble' audio," that sounds "terrible" but "very clearly signals that there is a non-ferrous co-locate" is very intriguing. That, I assume, is one of those audible skills that will only come with time. How does that relate to your admonition, at first, for us to dig only 2-way hits, not one-way hits...is this "terrible audio on a partially masked co-locate" consistent, as you rotate, such that it's one of those "two-way hits" you tell us to focus on at first? OR -- is this particular audio nuance harder to learn, and thus is a more "expert" tuition, to be had "later?"

Steve

What Steve said, also taking it all in.Thanks Tom.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2022 06:18PM by DJW-OR.

Keep posting tom I'm in learning mode as well

I'd like to know more about the 2D/TT screen. I've noticed on a few videos that on items that are not round, as in items that have some length to them show up when swept horizontally as a long trace. This occurs even though the I.D. numbers are pretty tight. When they are swept in the vertical the trace appears round. I get why they would appear different using a DD coil in the different target orientations, but I don't get why it shows long items to be long when the I.D. stays pretty tight number wise.

If the detector was simply plotting an X/Y on a graph based on I.D. how can it show length to a target with a tight I.D.?

It may be an illusion, but it looks like something more is going on than simply plotting on a graph based on the targets I.D. alone. I hope my question makes sense.

Longbow62 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'd like to know more about the 2D/TT screen. I've
> noticed on a few videos that on items that are not
> round, as in items that have some length to them s
> how up when swept horizontally as a long trace. Th
> is occurs even though the I.D. numbers are pretty
> tight. When they are swept in the vertical the tra
> ce appears round. I get why they would appear diff
> erent using a DD coil in the different target orie
> ntations, but I don't get why it shows long items
> to be long when the I.D. stays pretty tight number
> wise.
>
> If the detector was simply plotting an X/Y on a gr
> aph based on I.D. how can it show length to a targ
> et with a tight I.D.?
>
> It may be an illusion, but it looks like something
> more is going on than simply plotting on a graph b
> ased on the targets I.D. alone. I hope my question
> makes sense.

This is an excellent question. IF this is happening, it doesn't make sense at first glance, just as you said...

Steve

Kingfish....... Nokta/Makro will fully be a top-performer (World Class unit)........ if one fundamental issue can be corrected with their SMF (Legend).

steveg......... MC at 2nd hunt site was unusable due to newer nails that would not ID (report properly) with too low of a Ferrous Limits Upper setting of '5'. This new site (with substantially less decomposed nails/iron) required stronger iron discrimination via Ferrous Limits adjustability.
Yes......... 1st site I was using All Terrain High Conductors Mode. (Same with 2nd site...... for most of the hunt).
Iron falsing is a slight bit more difficult to control whilst in All Terrain High Conductors; yet, very do'able. All Terrain Low Conductors is a bit better ...with less iron falsing; yet, not quite as deep.
Yes.......... 2-way hits is THE premise /// learning-curve..... (tuition- - - into: intuition) for learning the unique 'warble' of the polyphonic audio characteristics of masked targets. It DOES take a longer learning-curve! It's one of those: You'll hate it.... at first. Then..... the lightbulb goes "ON".......and NEVER extinguishes....... for surreal/unreal door openings.

Longbow62........ Yes..... the 2D screen DOES paint a picture that may (otherwise) be harder to hear. . . . . yet: visibly easier to see. a LOT of times....... sheet-steel will paint a long diagonal (or long vertical stripe)...... even though the ID may report as a solid tone (maybe a bit elongated/smeared audio). BUT........ BE CAREFUL!!! A coin masked by a close nail will do the same thing! THAT'S where 'audio' is ""key"".

Longbow62 Wrote:

> If the detector was simply plotting an X/Y on a gr
> aph based on I.D. how can it show length to a targ
> et with a tight I.D.?

Possibly, the TID and the 2d screen use different filters and/or work independent of each other. An averaging filter for the TID and the 2d screen shows a range of TIDs perhaps down averaged. Otherwise because of falsing at the ends on the nail, the line(Length) would be much longer.

"It's only when we lost everything, that we are free to do anything"

Im popping in and out simply because this site wont allow me to post. Have no idea why has to be a setting.

SteveG, we both were pretty active with the Explorers, i wonder if this smart screen reacts the same with some targets like deep nickle, IHs, and bottle caps? Still yet to see very much on its use IN the water. Im hoping to see what phones they use and what kind of chatter the salt water may cause as well as adjustments needed. Im going to be on the sidelines until then. Maybe someone will have all the water settings down for me by then lol.

Thanks Tom for some real in depth information thus far.

Kingfish......... I'm TRYING to find the time to answer the remainder of your questions. Here's more 'attempt' =

Manticore is dumbed-down...... but it's NOT dumbed-down. Anytime you are inventing things...... it is commonplace to run into things that have 'side-effects'. Many times.... the side-effects are a 'negative'. But...... sometimes the side-effects are 'positive'. During Manticore inception..... there were a couple of things that presented tremendous performance attributes; yet, . . . . . we have yet to figure out ways to:
1. Capture it
2. Fix it
3. Harness it
4 Reproduce it (to include: on an assembly-line)
5. AND....... sometimes................ figure out what 'caused' it
6. THEN........... (ultimately) implement it

This is exactly what happened during EQX prototyping-into-inception. A couple of the side-effects were 'eye-opening'....... but............... would take years to capture & harness. -------Three years later: DONE! ((( It's called: Manticore ))). Yes......... we (now) have a new group of 'positives' to try to harness......and employ. Fruition: Most probably another 3-years. ((( Lest we forget....... or forsake! )))

Tarsacci. Same thing. The crew at Tarsacci already/absolutely has a: "shoot-the-engineer" ...and release the thing. BUT....... the engineers of Tarsacci (((ESPECIALLY Dimitar)))....... wants to: improve/enhance/improve/enhance/improve/enhance........ and the vicious circle continues! In the biggest regard...... it is euphorically commendable. Yet......... an engineers work is NEVER "done". . . . . and............ a-little-more.......a-little-more.......a-little-more: ensues.

I need to say something else = The Minelab engineering team....could absolutely care less about "market timing". The physicists/engineers could absolutely care less about 'the money'. The physicists/engineers could absolutely care less about 'metrics'. What we DO care about is: Wanting to 'show off' OUR NEW BABY. We want everyone to see just exactly how well this thing really performs. We BEG for all others to: DISCOVER A NEW WORLD. ------It is the Owner/President of whom cares about the 'beans'....... counting the dollars. And.............. rightfully so. Money AND corporate SURVIVAL!!! Physicists & Engineers want you to see (first-hand) the PHYSICS and ENGINEERING aspects of the new widgets 'employability'.

Kingfish........ you are also wanting to know what is on my mind. I do indeed have a very specific/discrete 'next target'. But............. in this case.............. I choose not to share, . , . , . , . , . so as to NOT give the competitors the 'jump'......... and (because).... I have a very specific "control-the-variables" (and outcome) mode/means/methodology to very discretely 'target'.

I've often think about the old flash cameras. You would hold a button down to charge the flash circuit to be released for the flash. I thought this type of high energy could be used in detectors..... I mean you hit a target, charge up the ground penitrating jolt then shoot that juice into the ground taking a photo of the target. Then the target would be displayed on the screen rotating around like a 3d program. Maybe Kodak will come out with a detector? Lol.

Kenny
[www.youtube.com]

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> steveg......... MC at 2nd hunt site was unusable d
> ue to newer nails that would not ID (report proper
> ly) with too low of a Ferrous Limits Upper setting
> of '5'. This new site (with substantially less dec
> omposed nails/iron) required stronger iron discrim
> ination via Ferrous Limits adjustability.

Got it.


> Yes......... 1st site I was using All Terrain High
> Conductors Mode. (Same with 2nd site...... for mos
> t of the hunt).
> Iron falsing is a slight bit more difficult to con
> trol whilst in All Terrain High Conductors; yet, v
> ery do'able. All Terrain Low Conductors is a bit b
> etter ...with less iron falsing; yet, not quite as
> deep.

Got it.


> Yes.......... 2-way hits is THE premise /// learni
> ng-curve..... (tuition- - - into: intuition) for l
> earning the unique 'warble' of the polyphonic audi
> o characteristics of masked targets. It DOES take
> a longer learning-curve! It's one of those: You'll
> hate it.... at first. Then..... the lightbulb goes
> "ON".......and NEVER extinguishes....... for surre
> al/unreal door openings.

Sounds like it will be tough to learn, at first...but will pay dividends, later.



> Longbow62........ Yes..... the 2D screen DOES pain
> t a picture that may (otherwise) be harder to hear
> . . . . . yet: visibly easier to see. a LOT of tim
> es....... sheet-steel will paint a long diagonal (
> or long vertical stripe)...... even though the ID
> may report as a solid tone (maybe a bit elongated/
> smeared audio). BUT........ BE CAREFUL!!! A coin m
> asked by a close nail will do the same thing! THAT
> 'S where 'audio' is ""key"".

This makes sense to me. I ASSUME the screen plots are similar to FBS, which means each plot is simply an x,y coordinate pair plotted on an x,y coordinate system, where the x-axis is CO and the y-axis is FE.

And so, yes, we should be able to see things in the plots that are "hard to hear," BECAUSE, since we are usually listening to the conductive tones, AND looking at the conductive ID, hearing/seeing "stability" there is not telling you anything about the FERROUS ID. There could be substantial variability in ID ON THE FERROUS SIDE, and so, it seems logical to me that we should see vertical (or even slightly diagonal) "smears," for many "junk" or "ferrous" targets -- even if the CO ID of the target is very solid/consistent in VDI/tone. Little variability in "x" (CO), does NOT mean there is little variability in "y" (FE).

Steve



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2022 03:12PM by steveg.

dewcon4414 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> SteveG, we both were pretty active with the Explor
> ers, i wonder if this smart screen reacts the same
> with some targets like deep nickle, IHs, and bottl
> e caps?

Good question, Dew, although my SUSPICION is that while the screen is similar, we'll have to learn new "nuances" and "bounces" and such, with different targets, on the MC -- since the technology is different. It will be interesting to see. I'm looking forward to tackling the learning curve...

Steve

Tom, Thank you for taking the time to answer all of my questions. You are the reason why I will buy a Manticore.

shoveler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "shoveler........... The percent of EQX failures i
> s truly not that high. EMPLOY THE WARRANTY!!!! Tha
> t's what it is for!!!"
>
> I'm a skeptic Tom or , maybe "not that high" is a
> relative term , but of the 4 people I know that us
> e/used a NOX , we have gone through 11 machines an
> d 5 of those never saw water. Warranties are fine
> if they are still in effect but no one now dares t
> o put an out of warranty machine under water. Half
> the reasons you gave above for the creation of the
> 700/900 deal with manufacturing issues.

That's odd because I know several Equinox users out here and not a single one has had a failure.

Cal_cobra Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> That's odd because I know several Equinox users ou
> t here and not a single one has had a failure.

Get those people together and have them pick you some lottery numbers then go buy some tickets!!!

Is there a Problem with the Manticore? Is that why Minelab is not sending this out to dealers as they have a problem to fix? Can't figure out why this unit won't be sitting under 1000's or 10,000 trees this Christmas.... Have you heard anything NASA-Tom?

It could be but official narration is the border customs here in EU.

Mike........ I am deep INSIDE Manticore.,.,.,.,.,. and not very 'connected' with marketing/production/distribution of Manticore. To the best of my knowledge........ there are no problems with Manticore. There may be a International commodity restriction imposed; yet, I doubt that also.............as........ it should hold the same international shipping parameters as the EQX.
There is a (very mild) caveat: We physicists/engineers always want to do MORE MORE MORE...........soooooooo........... in our eyes......... Manticore is NEVER "done".

Tom, have you updated to an actual 'shipping' production unit? or if not are you running the actual shipping SW version? and what is that version?
sounds like you might be using a version beyond the one actually shipping?

appreciate the info you're providing btw....

canslawhero......... It certainly may not be obvious.......... but it is an absolute no-no for me to admit what version(s) I have. BUT........ in light of this.........I'm/we (at Minelab) are well aware of proto versions, preproduction versions and the final/actual version. , . , . , . , . and the improvements/variations/differences between!
I believe I CAN say this: I do have a updated version.
Interestingly...... the last several software versions retained identical performance; yet, gave more tools/settings/options.

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> canslawhero......... It certainly may not be obvio
> us.......... but it is an absolute no-no for me to
> admit what version(s) I have. BUT........ in light
> of this.........I'm/we (at Minelab) are well aware
> of proto versions, preproduction versions and the
> final/actual version. , . , . , . , . and the impr
> ovements/variations/differences between!
> I believe I CAN say this: I do have a updated vers
> ion.
> Interestingly...... the last several software vers
> ions retained identical performance; yet, gave mor
> e tools/settings/options.
thanks Tom, I recalled you saying you had version '59' but the production version is '50' I believe....

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mike........ I am deep INSIDE Manticore.,.,.,.,.,.
> and not very 'connected' with marketing/production
> /distribution of Manticore. To the best of my know
> ledge........ there are no problems with Manticore
> . There may be a International commodity restricti
> on imposed; yet, I doubt that also.............as.
> ....... it should hold the same international ship
> ping parameters as the EQX.
> There is a (very mild) caveat: We physicists/engin
> eers always want to do MORE MORE MORE...........so
> ooooooo........... in our eyes......... Manticore
> is NEVER "done".


I get that TOM I just hope they support this machine with updates. As I spent the big $$$ on the CTX and no updates. I hope we don't go down that road again. Thanks for an awesome product as I'm sure it is not that I have one. Seems like Minelab is giving more YouTubers machines than there own detexperts?? Been swing minelabs for a very long time. Thanks for everything you do and I love Minelab products!!!!!

Just like with EQX.......... there will be updates for Manticore.

Hi Tom,

I took my manticore out for the first time this weekend at a few colonial sites and I used both all terrain high and low conductors programs not changing anything on them. When I got to heavy machine gun iron I increased the recovery speed up to 8 to try and maximize separation.

Was using 8 recovery speed to high?

Also do you think minelab could build an additional all terrain search mode specifically for square nail/machine gun iron infested sites?

Thanks!

FAST program should to work good with iron...

viperSRT-10....... I have yet to ascertain better/enhanced adjacent target separation characteristics ABOVE a setting of '7'. In fact..... the delta/difference between speed '6' and speed '7'...... heavily starts to generate/employ the: law-of-diminishing-returns. There is formidable/nearly-severe depth loss on higher Recovery Speed settings; yet, keep in mind........ if you are in carpets of nails.,.,.,.,.,.,., your depth is severely limited/restricted anyway!
You may also choose to try 20-KHZ single freq........... JUST to see if this helps you any........ in your SPECIFIC topographic/demographic/geographic environ.

(((Your other question is more 'spot-on' than you may imagine!))).