MINELAB MANTICORE: DATA & PERFORMANCE

I'm so inundated/saturated in the engineering booth.......... that I don't even have enough time to properly keep up with this forum.
I am even starting to fail to properly answer folks questions/statements/comments. . . . . . due to: lack-of-time.

Ok, Tom so XP is parallel after the last update with Manticore minus the 2D graph. Also the audio is slightly better and more descriptive.

I'm a little uncertain.........as.........I am hearing there are some issues with the Deus-2 update.

Something else that I have been encountering with Manticore:

I pass coil over a target. I acquire a ID of '70'...... and 2-chevrons deep on the depth bar-graph. Target turns out to be a 1914 penny at nearly 8" deep. This is easily a 4-chevron depth qualifier; yet, the detector presented a 2-chevron (shallow) depth indication. WHY!?!?!?
As I dig down to 7" - 8" depth mark....... I am finding little pieces of ferrous rust. Collectively........ the little pieces of rust in concert with the wheat penny......... collectively...... gives a strong enough composite signal-strength....of only 2-chevrons deep.
FYI !!!

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Something else that I have been encountering with
> Manticore:
…’
presented a 2-chevron (shallow) d
> epth indic
> As I dig down to 7" - 8" depth mark....... I am fi
> nding little pieces of ferrous rust. Collectively.
> ....... the little pieces of rust in concert with
> the wheat penny......... collectively...... gives
> a strong enough composite signal-strength..
> ..of only 2-chevrons deep.
> FYI !!!

This explains what I observed at my Florida east coast beach location. There are litterly hundreds of old and not so old wrecks off our beaches. Pieces of quarter size rust from sand pumping pipes are often mistaken by tourists as corroded reales. So there must be smaller rusted ferrous pieces. Good to know the depth meter may be off some. But the signal strength is accurate (to my ears) and lets me know it is shallower than reported by the number of chevrons.

So much is dependeant on location. Things change with the beach front one detects up and down the coast.

Thanks again Tom!

Does anyone have or can suggest a setting for 1 way targets? Meaning if you swing from L to R you hear a high tone but when sweating back from R to L its a null. and if you spin on its a null. Some people are suggesting that you can find coins by getting a one way tone and hitting the Pinpointer and digging it. I've done this for 3 days and all I'm getting it square nails. Looking for some suggestions. Or maybe there is a need for an iron update on the manticore like the D2. A friend of mine that has a D2 loves v1.1 went back to same area with version 1.0 and he considered selling the machine and tonight with 1.1 he dug a 1838 Large penny and 3 Indians in this heavily iron infested area. We are suppose to go hunt tomorrow. Just was curious about 1 way signals. Thanks

Mike

Pinpoint the target. If it's right on the hit, dig it. If the pinpoint is off to the side, don't dig.

That worked with the CZ5. If the pinpoint was off to the side it was iron. I dug a few one way hits that were IH pennies that pinpointed right on.

I assume it would work with the Manticore too.

Mike......... it takes a bit of a skillset; yet, what triggers me to dig a one-way hit (((of which you described very well/properly))) is...... how 'sharp' the hit is. Is it 'smeared'...'blurry'? Or is it a very clear/solid/distinct audio hit. High-tone falsing iron usually sounds more smeared/washed-out/blurry. This holds true for any detector. A little experience/skillset.....can go a long way!
In technical terms: If the one-way hit PREAMBLE portion of the audio is sharp/clear....... dig it!

Thanks Rick and Tom I appreciate the time you took to help me out!!! I've seen where it pin points off to the side and I understand what your saying Tom so I'll have to give it another go..... This site I'm on are now down to the really masked and 1 way hits....

Mike K

For years........ I have been (Definitively) trying to find a certain/specific answer. I am posting on this thread....... because Manticore has enough 'tools' to allow good data-collection on the problem at hand.

Problem/Question ((in a nutshell)) = When you find a badly masked non-ferrous target (amongst carpets of nails/ferrous targets)..........
1. Can you change the velocity/speed of the coil....... to enhance non-ferrous target 'resolution'?
2. Can you RAISE the height of the coil a few inches above the ground.....of the badly masked non-ferrous target...... to enhance non-ferrous target 'resolution'?

Answer to problem/question #
1. Yes. And........as to be expected.......in most cases.......slowing the sweep-speed of the coil........ usually results in much better resolution (including ID) of a badly masked non-ferrous target.
2. NO! In nearly all cases.............. when you raise the height of the coil (even just a few inches above the surface of the ground)....... the iron: WINS/DOMINATES. , . , . , . , . and...... in most cases....the non-ferrous target goes: undetected/silent!

Beware.

Hi Tom,

For the result you mention above, during the testing did you also adjust recovery speed at all?

If so what were the results?

Thanks!

NASA Tom, How do you relate the 2nd question and answer/observation with varying the level of Sensitivity/receive gain and/or transmit power? There seems to be a different effect on the targets under the coil.

Chris

viper........ yes.....,,,,,,......... I have been testing a entire host of tests with Recovery Speed. Deeper targets go away with faster Recovery Speeds. In general........ faster Recovery Speeds will shorten (even: 'clip') the audio of a target.,.,.,.,., potentially 'fooling' the ear/brain into sounding too short.....as if to be ground chatter. And these results are with masked/partially-masked targets.
What I have been TRYING to 'definitively' resolve is: If higher Recovery Speeds are employed.......does even slower sweep-speeds in concert with higher Recovery Speeds......present more 'resolve' on a partially masked target? So far.......... when a non-ferrous target is badly masked.,.,.,.,.,., in nearly all cases.,.,.,., dropping Recovery Speed down to '2'....will generate the longest/clearest non-ferrous unmasking audio report. Not all cases; yet, most cases. ((( I know how things work on the bench....... BUT.......I do not go real-World hunting: on the bench!!!))). So far...... what I HAVE been able to resolve is: there is a law-of-diminishing returns......... point-of-no-return........ when you go TOO low...or...TOO high with Recovery Speed. The working 'usable' range of Recovery Speed (in the real-World) clearly seems to be between 2-6. When you go to 7 or 8..........or go down to 1 or 0....... VERY little can be gained. ((Except on the bench)). --- If a partially masked target can be acquired with a Recovery Speed of 6......... the audio report will be longer (more intelligible) with a Recovery Speed of 2.....in most cases. There is a caveat: for those folks of whom hunt in medium or high mineralization dirt....... may (at minimum) require a MINIMUM Recovery Speed of 4...... in order for the detector to be stable/huntable.

Chris....... I know where you are concerned/going with this. VALID! Keep in mind....... when you turn 'ON' nearly any brand of detector....... the transmit power is at a fixed maximum 'constant'. It is not adjustable. Transmit power has nothing to do with the Sensitivity control.
BUT! If Sensitivity (which is: Receive gain control) is too high........ the audio can become saturated/smeared/blurry........ and begin to mask targets again. The Sensitivity control is one of the most misunderstood (and....subsequently: misused) controls of a detector. In carpets of nails (a good example!)...... too high of a Sens setting....will result in LESS unmasking. Too low of a Sens setting...... will result in a 'no detect' and/or 'no signal' from a partially masked target. A medium (or medium-high) Sens setting appears to be the nominal median average for best success. Of all my testing....... 'some' conservative Sensitivity employment has (in general.......in most cases)....... generated best resultant. Use...... but don't abuse! Not TOO zealous!!!.....is the ticket.
Yes........ it does appear that TOO much Sensitivity seems to MORE-so 'activate' (light-up) the iron......even more. Be careful!!!

NASA Tom, Both parts of your last answer make perfect sense & reflect what I have observed in both my Low mineral test bed and my High mineral test bed. This is borne out in field hunting. What I try to keep in mind when hunting a difficult site is the performance of the detector at lower Sensitivity levels. If I KNOW how deep 50% Gain/Sensitivity is on coin size targets and how they will sound I can hunt with confidence & stability. This is better to me than trying to work thru the noise with uncertainty. This same type of prior knowledge based on experimenting applies to the Reactivity/Recovery setting. I still would like to see more top end detectors have an adjustable TX control. Some would misadjust it or complain of battery drain but I think it could prove quite useful.

Chris

TOM. - RE Update

Hi Tom, any comments on the Manticore update? Does anything change when using your beach mode settings?

REgards

This update ....is a worthy update; yet, minimally for beach hunters. If you are a IN-THE-WATER hunter........ the additional Volume control may be helpful. If you are a LCD screen watcher...... the "RED" numbers for iron/ferrous may be helpful. If you are ever a dry-sand hunter........ the new audio options for Prospecting/gold Mode is of benefit.

NASA-Tom -- can you talk any more about any of the benefits of the update, for land/turf hunters?

Steve

To me it's huge improvement having the numbers turn red.

Kenny
[www.youtube.com]

khouse Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To me it's huge improvement having the numbers tur
> n red.
It's my understanding that they only turn red when you are operating in a.m. though.

Video I did showing Manticore with update. Showing red ID when selected behavior.
Audio is king.
Don't necessarily believe your eyes as far as red ID being witnessed thinking ferrous only detected under coil.
Enjoy.

[m.youtube.com]

One more video showing red ferrous ID tendencies.
Gold ring and nails

[m.youtube.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2023 02:20PM by tnsharpshooter.

Del...... the ID numbers will always turn RED in any of the Modes........ as long as iron is not Notched/Discriminated out. In other words: If you select RED...... and you can hear the iron.,.,.,.,.,., their corresponding ID numbers will indeed light up with red digits.

Steve...... as time permits...... I shall elaborate more on the upgrade/improvements with this MUU. With my few minutes remaining....... I shall say this:

1. Zero depth/performance has been "forego" // compromised....... in order to implement all of these upgrades.
2. Sensitivity Boost. This Mode (and you will probably set it up as a hot-key)...... can really help in detection AND ID...... if you are one to run calm/stable settings for your normal hunting style. This feature simply jumps Sens 5 points instantly (temporarily). IF you run your detector HOT (I always do)...... and you invoke this feature...... it will jump your performance up into the EMI. Use accordingly/wisely!
3. Stabilizer function works in some mineralization...... in the department of mitigating high-tone falses from iron. If you have near zero mineralization...... it is less effective. A good starting point (for your testing) .... would be a Stabilizer setting of '7'. And..... it is completely your choice if you want to use (or not use) Stabilizer Filter. The audible intelligibility may be easier to understand.....with Filter "ON".

Out of time!

But, what if EMI is reducing/corrupting both transmit and received signals of both machines?
Any altered signals would also cause erroneous user information, correct?
I get the fact that the Tarsacci is/was designed for bad ground and beach hunting so it should perform well in the extreme ground conditions.
I would/could only guess a smaller than stock coil would help with EMI.
There is so much going on when EMI is a contributor to the equation of detector TX and RX circuits.
Not being an electronics guru I can only surmise.

Mark....... you may have answered on the wrong thread....... but that's ok.

Yes.......EMI WILL kill ID AND depth!!! Especially if the EMI is emanating/generated from underground power wires.

I have another minute.

Manticore and Goldfield Mode. You NOW can use it for relic hunting and micro-jewelry hunting BECAUSE the new MUU allows/gives more tone options. No longer is this Mode incarcerated to Prospecting only/exclusively. It is now a bit more 'General Purpose'. Personally ....... I like 1 Region - All Tones, M8 coil, Iron Volume '2', Recovery Speed(s) 2 or 3 or 4, Ferrous Upper Limits: 4, Ferrous Lower Limits: 3.........in order to completely dissect an area...... pulling ALL non-ferrous implements out of premium (trashed-out) sites.,.,.,.,.,., within the confines of this technological advancement.
REMEMBER = Goldfield Mode will find the tiniest of low conductors......... like #9 birdshot!

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have another minute.
>
> Manticore and Goldfield Mode. You NOW can use it f
> or relic hunting and micro-jewelry hunting BECAUSE
> the new MUU allows/gives more tone options. No lon
> ger is this Mode incarcerated to Prospecting only/
> exclusively. It is now a bit more 'General Purpose
> '. Personally ....... I like 1 Region - All Tones,
> M8 coil, Iron Volume '2', Recovery Speed(s) 2 or 3
> or 4, Ferrous Upper Limits: 4, Ferrous Lower Limit
> s: 3.........in order to completely dissect an are
> a...... pulling ALL non-ferrous implements out of
> premium (trashed-out) sites.,.,.,.,.,., within the
> confines of this technological advancement.
> REMEMBER = Goldfield Mode will find the tiniest of
> low conductors......... like #9 birdshot!

Does this mean the Goldfield Mode, (I'm assuming is true all metal mode) can have more than one tone?

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have another minute.
>
> Manticore and Goldfield Mode. You NOW can use it f
> or relic hunting and micro-jewelry hunting BECAUSE
> the new MUU allows/gives more tone options. No lon
> ger is this Mode incarcerated to Prospecting only/
> exclusively. It is now a bit more 'General Purpose
> '. Personally ....... I like 1 Region - All Tones,
> M8 coil, Iron Volume '2', Recovery Speed(s) 2 or 3
> or 4, Ferrous Upper Limits: 4, Ferrous Lower Limit
> s: 3.........in order to completely dissect an are
> a...... pulling ALL non-ferrous implements out of
> premium (trashed-out) sites.,.,.,.,.,., within the
> confines of this technological advancement.
> REMEMBER = Goldfield Mode will find the tiniest of
> low conductors......... like #9 birdshot!

M8 coil you say! Tom, perhaps you could give us an idea when we will be able to buy one?

Mark....... yes. You do have the ability (now) to select what ever tone option(s) you choose .... for the Goldfield Mode. You can make it sound like any of the other Modes; yet, always keep in mind: it is a hyper-sensitive Mode ...... especially to very low conductors. Kinda hard to handle (at first).
Goldfield Mode...... in its original (unmodified) form/configuration....... is indeed a all-metal Mode. You (now) can change that....... to your customized likings. This Mode functions with any coil size; yet, is most applicable/suited for the M8 coil. VERY "focused" outcome/resultant.
(((Think = Cellar hole.....and: underneath porch.....akin scenarios))).

viper....... they're coming. I know it looks as if they have already been available.....and for quite some time.....according to the Minelab website.

Tom-----What is the reason for this delay in getting Manticores out (in users hands)?----Has it got to do with Minelab implementing this new update?----Manticores have just been very slooowly trickling in to dealers.----Have even heard now that there won't be anymore coming to dealers until sometime in July.------Del

Del........ the true bottom-line is: DEMAND
The demand for this detector has been the highest......... since ML history. And............ even to the point whereby............ accessory coils production...is 'on hold'....... until we can get this SUPPLY/demand issue resolved on the actual unit itself. (Accessory coils are a 'secondary' concern...... compared to 'primary' ""actual unit"" production).

Thanks for your response Tom.----The complaint many of the small dealers have is the fact that they just simply (still) can't get Manticores in stock.----It seems that the "big box" stores are the ones that get (most of) them.----It doesn't seem to me that Minelab is giving the small dealers a "fair shake" in this regard.----It's a shame Minelab didn't plan their production/shipment schedule any better than this.---If there is this much problem getting the detector product out---what's it going to be like for the subsequent coils---as you somewhat alluded to.--------Del