Why Not Make a Dual Freq. F-75?

Seems First Texas went straight to a single frequency unit that does work remarkably well.
Yet, they had alot of great success (when they were Fisher) with the CZ series.

Why not incorporate the dual frequency platform into the F75?

I think that would make it a killer of a unit.

Seems the competition already has many multi-freq. digital (VDI display) platforms out there:
Ex. White's VX3 and Vi3 ; Minelab's Safari, Explorer SE, and Etrac.

Makes you wonder what is next?

I can just add a little but I'm sure others will jump in as we have brought this up before.

First, as Tom noted, the single frequency units generally do better than the multi frequency units in iron. (I think they can have higher recoveries). A deep unit like the CZ-3D is not so good in iron (I've heard). Now, I said "generally do better..." because it appears like the E-Trac does well in iron, at least on the high conductors. My V3i, which Tom made clear is a single frequency unit transmitting 3 separate frequencies and never combing them (like E-Tracs or CZ's do)- does excellent in iron. That said, a few guys who have had the E-Trac and V3i told me via PM that they thought the E-Trac was a bit better than the V3i. So, even if it's close, what did Minelab do?

Second, I think the multi frequency units came about to deal with bad ground. Now, that may be changing some with what Dave Johnson has done with the single frequency units in bad ground. Some of his do extremely well in bad ground (I've read.) So, we really don't know if multi frequency units can be better in good ground. My guess is perhaps yes, after all you have more to compare against trash, iron, etc.

That said, I can't wait for a light weight multi-frequency unit from Fisher. I'm planning on getting an E-Trac sometime next year, but the weight of the E-Trac (and my V3i for that matter) are not great for long hunts and actually hurts me the days after. So, I would jump without looking back at a lightweight multi frequency Fisher (or lighter and improved E-Trac.) I have a feeling the new multi frequency units will be great in iron. Where there is a will there is a way.

EMS

I have both the F75 and the Etrac.
Eventhough the Etrac is heavier the grip angle has been changed from the Explorer. I can swing the Etrac for a few hours before I start feeling the strain on my shoulder.

thmansurfer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can just add a little but I'm sure others will
> jump in as we have brought this up before.
>
> First, as Tom noted, the single frequency units
> generally do better than the multi frequency units
> in iron. (I think they can have higher
> recoveries). A deep unit like the CZ-3D is not so
> good in iron (I've heard). Now, I said "generally
> do better..." because it appears like the E-Trac
> does well in iron, at least on the high
> conductors. My V3i, which Tom made clear is a
> single frequency unit transmitting 3 separate
> frequencies and never combing them (like E-Tracs
> or CZ's do)- does excellent in iron. That said, a
> few guys who have had the E-Trac and V3i told me
> via PM that they thought the E-Trac was a bit
> better than the V3i. So, even if it's close, what
> did Minelab do?
>
> Second, I think the multi frequency units came
> about to deal with bad ground. Now, that may be
> changing some with what Dave Johnson has done with
> the single frequency units in bad ground. Some of
> his do extremely well in bad ground (I've read.)
> So, we really don't know if multi frequency units
> can be better in good ground. My guess is perhaps
> yes, after all you have more to compare against
> trash, iron, etc.
>
> That said, I can't wait for a light weight
> multi-frequency unit from Fisher. I'm planning on
> getting an E-Trac sometime next year, but the
> weight of the E-Trac (and my V3i for that matter)
> are not great for long hunts and actually hurts me
> the days after. So, I would jump without looking
> back at a lightweight multi frequency Fisher (or
> lighter and improved E-Trac.) I have a feeling the
> new multi frequency units will be great in iron.
> Where there is a will there is a way.
>
> EMS

I think you will find the F75 is designed in every way to be a single-frequency machine. It cannot readily be 'turned into' a dual-freq machine, though no doubt a lot of the know-how could be transferred to a new-design dual-freq detector.
What sort of dual freq machine did you have in mind? Something switchable between two different freq, like an XP deus? 'Two complete detectors in one' like a V3 (well, two-thirds of one) or a CZ-style machine running at 13 / 39 KHz ?

The V3 runs 3 frequencies at the same time and analyze them seperately wich takes alot more processing power.

The CZ and minelabs analyze them both ( respectivly 3 or 28 or pick your own nr) and combine the analyzing in one output.

Both types have advantages it seems, i like the V3 advantage better. It gives me better control.

And the depth difference really goes both ways depending on target, mineral level and type, iron contamination, AND operator understanding.

Pimento Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think you will find the F75 is designed in every
> way to be a single-frequency machine. It cannot
> readily be 'turned into' a dual-freq machine,
> though no doubt a lot of the know-how could be
> transferred to a new-design dual-freq detector.
> What sort of dual freq machine did you have in
> mind? Something switchable between two different
> freq, like an XP deus? 'Two complete detectors in
> one' like a V3 (well, two-thirds of one) or a
> CZ-style machine running at 13 / 39 KHz ?

The market needs a multifreq machine that is designed to grab deep silver in hunted out parks and at the same time neglecting shallow shreds of aluminium and foil and small iron...... Much like a Minelab, but openly advertised as a silver hunter..

frequencies ? i am no guru... but maybe 1 kh and 3 khz. Dave will find the two best or even 3 to to the job.

But, maybe they should implement a secondary mode or " process " that use only one frequency like the Goldbug Pro and with the same recovery speed and tonebreak disc system..

The problem will be to design a coil that can work equally good with both options.

If you're after 'deep silver in hunted-out parks' you're looking for coins with approx. natural frequencies from 1KHz (dollar) to 4KHz (half-dime). The optimum single frequency for this would be 4 - 6 KHz, so basically CZ frequency. A new CZ would definitely sell (in the US), and it would have all the usual characteristics of the modern First Texas machines, light, long battery life, LCD screen etc etc.
But worldwide, this machine would have less obvious demand. Perhaps a switchable dual freq F75-style machine would sell, eg 4 & 16 KHz, to cover modern coin-shooting, milled copper/silver at 4KHz, and relics/ancient coins at 16KHz. If this could be achieved with a single 'broadband' coil, so much the better.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/29/2012 11:22PM by Pimento.

Pimento...... perceptive and correct.

frnifo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pimento Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I think you will find the F75 is designed in
> every
> > way to be a single-frequency machine. It cannot
> > readily be 'turned into' a dual-freq machine,
> > though no doubt a lot of the know-how could be
> > transferred to a new-design dual-freq detector.
> > What sort of dual freq machine did you have in
> > mind? Something switchable between two
> different
> > freq, like an XP deus? 'Two complete detectors
> in
> > one' like a V3 (well, two-thirds of one) or a
> > CZ-style machine running at 13 / 39 KHz ?
>
> The market needs a multifreq machine that is
> designed to grab deep silver in hunted out parks
> and at the same time neglecting shallow shreds of
> aluminium and foil and small iron...... Much like
> a Minelab, but openly advertised as a silver
> hunter..
>
> frequencies ? i am no guru... but maybe 1 kh and 3
> khz. Dave will find the two best or even 3 to to
> the job.
>
> But, maybe they should implement a secondary mode
> or " process " that use only one frequency like
> the Goldbug Pro and with the same recovery speed
> and tonebreak disc system..
>
> The problem will be to design a coil that can work
> equally good with both options.


i like these thoughts! echo my sentiments

(h.h.!)
j.t.

FTP is indeed working on a new multi-freq platform/design......... of which is due out NEXT December........ one year from now. This target date is 'soft'.....yet, conceptually..... to know this project has been underway for some time............ and still has substantial time remaining..... should speak volumes.

Pimento.... whites uses the 3 and 15 Khz dual freq on its DFX. I used it for several years.... its a good machine, but there are better available.

Dew

Dew. Yes, I didn't mention it because I incorrectly thought it was CZ-like, transmitting both and receiving/interpreting both together. I hadn't realised it could selectively respond to either freq or both (correlate mode). It's design is still compromised by transmitting both at once, I suspect. Doing only one at a time, in the traditional tuned-circuit way, must be slightly better. I'm pretty sure the XP Deus does this, there are some latching relays in the search-coil assembly that switch in/out tuning capacitors (as well as changing the digital switching frequency that everything is locked to).

I think what the problem is .... one freq looses depth because of mineralization and the other doesnt like EMI. So there appears to be something missing.... maybe another freq added to stabilize the two. Dont work bad using either one based on the area you are hunting.... but several machines have switchable freq. On a beach the machine works pretty good.

Dew

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FTP is indeed working on a new multi-freq
> platform/design......... of which is due out NEXT
> December........ one year from now. This target
> date is 'soft'.....yet, conceptually..... to know
> this project has been underway for some
> time............ and still has substantial time
> remaining..... should speak volumes.


it certainly does! the complexity of such
an undertaking must be considerable,and would require
time to bring to fruition!...just sayin'

(h.h.!)
j.t.

NASA-Tom, thanks much for the confirmation that FTP IS working on a multi-freq. platform, and that it's getting close enough to at least TALK about a release date; that's AWESOME news, in my opinion. Deserves its own thread! (Unless, of course you are trying NOT to "shout it from the rooftops" just yet...) The thoughts of such a machine, with the ergonomics of other recent FTP designs...WOW!

One question, that I'm SURE you won't be allowed to answer, but I'll try anyway...will it more likely be one that transmits all frequencies simultaneously and compares (analagous to what I think you have said Minelab does with their FBS machines), or more likely one that transmits separately, and uses only one at a time (as I think I understand the V3i does); or, will it be a different approach entirely? I'm not looking for any "secrets" here, just wondering if it will allow comparing and information-gathering from multiple frequencies simultaneously...(and I don't even know if I am getting the terminology quite right, but I hope it's making sense what I'm trying to articulate).

Steve

Wow, december 2012. isnt that when the Mine... no Mayan calendar ends.

A new enlightened age for detectorists.

Them Mayans just ran out of paper. We have seen Whites take the XLT to the DFX to the V3.

Dew

Should be simul multi-freq...... analogous to the CZ platform.

Wow -- you WERE allowed to answer...

That sounds simply outstanding. Can't wait!

Steve

I hope it will be able to do both frequencies independently, in the F75 way, as well as simultaneously.
If you're reading this Mr. J, can it have some of these features, please: reasonably water-resistant. A thick-ish screen to protect the LCD. Breaks down into three equal-length short-as-possible parts (with coil still attached to lower rod) for optimum compactness. Has a depth-gauge going in half-inch steps (or even centimetre steps) - makes pinpointing more precise. Depth gauge adjusts for different coil sizes (automatic or manually set). Mixed-mode audio option. Cordless headphone transmitter. A single-tone disc mode that reports everything disc'ed out with an iron-tone. LCD backlight with on/off control. Doesn't fall on it's side when you put it down. Detailed instruction manual, that's not 100% aimed at the North American market.
I'm sure it will be worth waiting for.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2012 07:25PM by Pimento.

WOW, Thats great news.

Having just spent some time trying to find targets in a nail/iron pit, I've been experimenting with single-tone and all-metal modes on my F75.
As a result, I would like to add to my 'dual-freq F75' wishlist (2 posts ago):
In single-tone disc mode '1', can we have the adjustable audio pitch, as set in all-metal mode?
New dual-tone mode,'2': anything disc-ed out gives an iron-tone, good targets give the single adjustable pitch, as in mode '1'
A four-tone mode where everything disc-ed out is reported as an iron-tone.
These features could also be added to the standard F75.
Also, a push-button (like an F2 pinpoint one?) that when depressed, switches from 'disc' mode to 'motion all-metal' mode, and vice-versa, depending on the original mode chosen.

Gosh an analog or digital CZ 1-100 sounds like a killer also.....

Hmmmmmm. I like some of these ideas.

I thought it would be worth explaining why I would like the iron-tone the way I described.
Having got used to the F75's non-obtrusive iron tone, I appreciate the benefits of being informed about what is under the search-coil, even if I don't want to dig it. Example: If I get a 90's TID iron-false, I can easily find the iron, and explain the false. But when searching in woods for isolated, possibly deep targets, I'm aware they can read as large iron, TID = 12,13, with the odd jump into non-ferrous. So I'd like to set disc at 11, everything above this giving me a good tone, but I still want to hear the iron for the below-11 targets. Similarly, if I was coin-shooting, I might choose a disc of 22, but hearing the disc-ed out stuff in an unobtrusive way, such as the iron-tone, would be helpful.
I have found that during the recovery process, TID values of a target can change, particularly lower-conductivity items dropping into the iron range. E.g. when a plug is removed from pasture, and the target is in the plug, sweeping the plug sitting on the drop-sheet can show this drop-to-iron effect. If I have the machine with disc 22, I won't hear the target in the plug, but it won't be in the hole, either, causing confusion. If I had the iron-tone for the disc-ed out targets, I would know where my target was.

And this is why I never like to completely Disc out iron........ so as to maintain knowledge of what is happening under the coil at all times. A adjustable split-tone (tone-break)........ in concert with adjustable volume control over the low tone would be beneficial. This certainly would be for the more advanced hunters though.

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Should be simul multi-freq...... analogous to the
> CZ platform.


simultaneously transmitting multiple
"low" frequencies,combined with a
"lightening" quick processor,in a "lightweight'
platform. from a marketing perspective,positon the
detector at the "right"" price point",and (f.t.p.) will
have a "world beater" on it's hands!..just sayin'

(h.h.!)
j.t.

jmaryt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NASA-Tom Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Should be simul multi-freq...... analogous to
> the
> > CZ platform.
>
>
> simultaneously transmitting multiple
> "low" frequencies,combined with a
> "lightening" quick processor,in a "lightweight'
> platform. from a marketing perspective,positon the
>

My bet is it isn't going to be just one machine. Rather a new platform for both land and water machines.
> detector at the "right"" price point",and (f.t.p.)
> will
> have a "world beater" on it's hands!..just sayin'
>
> (h.h.!)
> j.t.

frnifo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The V3 runs 3 frequencies at the same time and
> analyze them seperately wich takes alot more
> processing power.
>
> The CZ and minelabs analyze them both (
> respectivly 3 or 28 or pick your own nr) and
> combine the analyzing in one output.
>
> Both types have advantages it seems, i like the V3
> advantage better. It gives me better control.
>
> And the depth difference really goes both ways
> depending on target, mineral level and type, iron
> contamination, AND operator understanding.

Cz's operate at 5khz &1 5khz and from my testing and years of use,had my cz20 since 93 the cz's beat everything I have in iron.
T2 - gold bug pro..

------------"Cz's still bad to the bone".------------
Living on a big ass Astroid.
The woman that got my rib,I want it back.

Somebody's way ahead of you.

Or so I suspect.

In the immortal words of Bob Dylan - "Time will tell - who has fell - and who's been left behind - when you go your way and I go mine".

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold