CZ tuning & T2 operating frequency

Hi Tom D

First time on your forum and I would like to compliment you on the job you are doing putting out the good information you do in your articles. They are in-depth, concise and accurate. Having put many many hours on Fisher products, I can say from experience that your findings on many of the subjects you touch on are right on. Good Job!

That said I have to admit I have switched from the CZ over to the new digital Fishers. The reason being that I cannot seem to find a newer CZ's that handles iron as well as the older units I used in the past. My question is this, Will FT/Fisher have people properly trained in the tuning of CZ's?

I see you have convinced Bill L to try listening to some iron with the T2. Hopefully he will see the light! LOL What is you opinion of the T2 compared to the lower frequency Fishers for coin hunting older sites? My experience with other "relic" detectors operating above 10 Khz has not been good when it comes to coin hunting older sites where the coins and iron are mixed down in the 6" to 8" range. It did not matter what coil was used, they would not signal on older pennies/silver dimes co-located with iron that gave good signals with the lower frequency Fishers either the CZ or the new digital units. Your thoughts please.

On the subject of the digital Fishers, what are your thoughts about them? I was an early, one of the first to buy, user of the Coinstrike. It took a while but like most of those who stuck with the machine I found it to be an oustanding performer at many tasks. Not for everyone certainly as it seems all the high performance machines have their quirks which some cannot learn to come to grips with or which makes them unsuitable for their type hunting. I would hate to see proven detectors like the Coin$trike and ID Edge dropped from the lineup unless Dave and the team have some worthy replacements.


Thanks
Tom Z



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2007 01:29PM by Jackpine.

Hi Tom,

Glad you find the info helpful. I need time to write more stuff.....as I have a lot more on the brain.
I have been running the T-2 for a couple of years now.... and find it to be superior at pulling non-ferrous items in Fe infested areas. In fact, in my inventory of detectors..... I find I am only using the T-2 and correctly-tuned CZ-3D's. In Florida (where I do most of my hunting), the Coin$trike/ID Edge/Explorer-XS-II-SE does not ascertain the depths (or ID accuracy) that a CZ-3D acquires. And when targets (here in everglades/boggy/soggy tropical Florida) sink at a average rate of 1"-per 5-years,,,,,, depth capabilities become paramount. I have hundreds of hours on the Coin$trike....and just can not find one niche with it... that would trump a CZ. I am the type of person of whom could care less if a platform is digital or otherwise. If a detector can 'trump' my current unit by even just 1%..... I'm jumping ship,,,, regardless of brand. Life is too short.
I'm seeing too many inconsistencies with the batches of CZ-3D's (within the past year)..... and it hurts me. I wish more folks could "experience" a properly tuned CZ-3D. I am uncertain (at this point) how well FTP will produce the 3D's. I'm not even sure if the calibration techs have yet received my calibration 'test-standards' (special tools/equipment utilized for base-reference calibration & tuning) to create CZ-3D's. Los Banos Fisher had them last. Although, I believe FTP has the correct remainder hardware for the 3D's.
A few T-2 words. ((( MY article "Head-to-Head Comparison Testing" was generated around the T-2 ))). The T-2 does not have the depth capabilities of a CZ; HOWEVER, in iron infested sites where ALL other detectors have long since failed to produce any more non-ferrous items; enter the T-2. Properly set up, the T-2 will find MANY more non-ferrous items that no other detector could see. Now,,,, understand this.......,,,,,,,,, do NOT expect the T-2 to ID the co-located non-ferrous target properly. If there are 4 nails and one nickel under the T-2's coil..... and the T-2 properly ID's only the nickel,,,,,,,,..... Well then,,,,the T-2 lied to you. If the T-2 ID's only "nail #3" correctly,,,,,,,,........ Well then,,,, the T-2 lied to you again. If the T-2 properly ID's only "nail #4" correctly......... you get the gist. No detector can "properly" ID in multi-target co-locate scenarios. ------ The T-2 is not perfect. The T-2 ID's iron very well. Steel is a different story...... it sometimes has difficulty ID'ing. ....i.e. steel bottle-caps, plate steel etc......
So,,,, as far as going "coins only" hunting in Fe infested areas with the T-2 (and the T-2 properly ID'ing the coins)...... as long as the coins are not too deep,,,,,, it will perform very well compared to other detectors,,,, but primarily due to the extremely tight elliptical DD coil (extreme enhanced adjacent target seperation characteristics),,,,,, BUT, this is assuming there is some seperation between the coins and the nails. If there are multiple targets under the coil..... things go awash.

.... Also (( Food-for-thought )), , , , A detector that is 'silent' in the iron,,,, may NOT necessarily be a good thing!!!

H.I.H.

Tom

"Also (( Food-for-thought )), , , , A detector that is 'silent' in the iron,,,, may NOT necessarily be a good thing!!!"

Oh how I agree on that Tom! The best iron hunters are the ones that are noisy at low, small nail reject settings. Machines like the 1236x2 (silencer off) and the ML Advantage with low disc (zero to 9:00 on the dial) get the job done better than the quiet ones that are designed to take a long look at a target before putting thru an audio response. Reg Sniff explained that to me a long time ago. The 1200 series pop and click because they "want" to put thru a response on targets close to the rejection setting rather than wanting to silence the reponse like the others are designed to do. This type of quick cutoff and recovery allows good stuff close to iron and low in conductivity as well to be heard as a good tone. There is a market for both types and those quiet machines will continue to be popular!

Thanks for the info on tuning, lets hope the FT gets it together on the CZ's and does them right!

So I take it that the T2 works best when used as a "beep-dig" detector set up to hear at least some of the iron responses?
Use low disc and learn the sounds type of thing? Do you use the multi tones or 2 tone ferrous/non-ferrous mode?

There is something to be said for the new detectors with adjustable iron disc. The Explorer has it but, being a slow sweep, slow recovery machine I do not care for it in iron. The digital Fishers are more to my liking because of the fast recovery/response. The Edges tones are more suited to me for that type of fast on/off audio response in heavy iron infested areas and even tho TID around heavy iron cannot be trusted the Edge still will amaze me at times with its ID ability on some pretty tough targets. Of all the ID detectors I have used it is the best I have seen at giving something close to a "true" reading on iron/trash co-located targets.

Sorry for the ramble and back to the subject. You made an excellent point in your article comparing the 5" and 10.5" coils on mid depth co-located coin/iron targets. I see the higher frequency machines as having the same effect. Less responsiveness on the coin due to the frequecy so that the iron signal predominates. Without exception my use has shown that higher frequency detectors need bigger coils to see deep silver. Thats why they come with 9" or greater stock coils. This creates a set of problems. Masking due to coil size and the overall greater sensitivity these detectors have to small targets.
Going to a small coil or turning down the sensitivity is no help. Sure there is less masking with the smaller coil but again due to the frequency being used you lose even more response on the co-located high conductor. Its a no win situation! If the T2 IS better than the other high frequency machines at this then it has to do with the coil construction more than anything else JMHO.


Tom



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2007 05:16PM by Jackpine.

Tom,

Yes, With the T-2, I strictly use it for "relic-only" hunting in Fe infested areas, monotone only, very low disc,,,, and nearly max sensitivity to deliberately induce a bit of instability. Only under emergency conditions,,, do I use anything other then 1 tone.... and if so,,, it's usually 4-tone. It sounds & operates like a CZ-70 4-tone system, has the VCO pin-point, and CZ-3D 'old-coins' parameter when in 4-tone (by no accident). If my 4-tone CZ breaks in the field,,, there's virtually minimal mental transition to a 4-tone invoked T-2. The recovery speed between adjacent targets, FINALLY,,, (for the first time in history), exceeds human comprehension/capabilities. When the T-2 is invoked into any type of 'boosted' performance...... the unit should only be used in the hands of well seasoned detectorists. It becomes very noisy/chattery. It's a prospecting unit.......and with that in mind..... it'll detect tiny flakes of metal trash,,,,, and a non-seasoned detectorist will write-it-off as being a "unstable" detector.......when,,,, in actuality... there is just that much junk in the ground/under the coil. The 'between targets' recovery speed of the Explorer is slow,,, the ID Edge is medium,,, and the T-2 is the speed of a Pentium 'V' 586 microprocessor (once again... by no accident). The hair-splitting adjustablilty of the iron range is paramount..... as MOST good non-Fe targets(especially old sites/targets) are masked by huge volumes of iron. And yes, the T-2's operating freq is resonant to the hard-foil (nickel's) range,,,,,, is extremely sensitive to these low conductors,,,,, and has (a trade-off/downfall) average performance on copper/silver - high conductance items. The higher operating freq lends itself to better EM stability in Fe3O4 soils.
Tom, You hit the "nail on the head" (sorry, bad detectorist pun) about coil sizes vs. operating freq. And lowering operating freq 'sensitizes' the unit to silver coins, gives greater depth to these copper/silvers that most all of us are after,,, but interjects some Fe3O4 bad lateritic/magnetite dirt instability. It's time to desensitize a unit to iron.... and boost sensitivity to silver!

H.I.H.

Tom

Thanks for the candid and honest report on the T2! I am always on the lookout for a sensitive jewelry machine for fresh water wading. I mentioned to Dave J in an email that they should consider adding an optional long coil cable to the new detectors for us shallow fresh water hunters. Fisher detectors can be chest mounted and I apprecialte that ability. Most of the availble waterproof units leave me cold for fresh water hunting. I hear its not a big enough market for the manufacturers to invest a lot in new waterproof detectors but surely someone can can out with something suitable for a diehard fresh water hunter like me.

Deep on coins in iron is a tough one. I do have my go to unit for that but its not a Fisher or Teknetics. <grin> It does however use a DD coil and is a single low frequency machine. If someone does come up with an improvement in a desensitized to iron, deep silver combo TID unit it will be a big hit.

Later
Tom Z

how much the slightly higher operating frequency really aids in areas with high Fe soils. Most "bad" ground east of the rockies consists of decomposed clays and so forth. By all reports, detectors like the ML Advantage handle these with no problem and it operates at around 5 Khz. Don't get me wrong, detectors like the MXT and the new T2 have a lot going for them but, I see way too many people purchasing them based on, "this should be good look at who designed it" only to find they do not aproach the performance of the dedicated coin machines on high conductors. Other than the 3D what has come out in the last few years that advances the "state of the art" for coin hunters? Nothing! We do not need another "all terrain" detector like the MXT/T2! Heck I would be happy with something in the 7-8 Khz range. Surely with todays technology engineers would be able to design a detector in that op range that retains excellent sensitivity to small jewelry size gold yet gives good performance on deep silver.

Just some rambling thoughts.


Tom Z

Is there a way to determine if my CZ3D is properly tuned without sending it back to the factory?

Thanks,
GZ

Gary,

Place CZ-3D in "Enhanced" mode and:
* Approx. 25% - 40% of new nickels should read 'round-tab' (with mid-tone).
* $5.00 Gold Half-Eagle should read high-tone (Zinc Penny ID).
* U.S. Shield nickel should read high-tone (Nickel ID).
* Zinc pennies should read high tone (High-Coin ID).

Sensitivity/Depth check: Place Sensitivity on '5', Disc '0' and in 'Enhanced' mode:

* U.S. clad dime should air-test & ID correctly at 11.25" (w/8" coil).
* At maximum range... audio response should be short, faint & crisp......and NOT 'smeared/elongated' audio.

Autotune mode should start to produce a faint audio threshold tone/hum at sensitivity settings above '9'.

Just a few 'quick-checks'.

H.I.H.

Tom

Thanks Tom. I appreciate your time in replying and the information that you gave.

Off with the small coil and on with the 8" for some testing.

GZ

Great stuff you guys the other forums should read this! Can I post this there?

Sure, It's to help ALL.

H.I.H.

Still holds true

OMG blast from the past.

MRH I'm meeting up with a friend today and will get a chance to try out the MMK. I'm curious how well they invoked the 5 Khz frequency and its usefulness for deep high conductors in garbage dump type trash. My Musketeer is getting long in the tooth and a bit tired. Need to find someone to tune it.

Everyone is waiting for the Manta...not me. I want/need to see what FTP has to replace the CZ-3D. Stiff competition these days so I wonder if the Mosca/CZX went back to the drawing board because of it.

I "almost" wish we had bad ground up here... Naah

Tom Z

PS: FTP missed the boat on all terrain detectors. Had a couple back in the day that would have been big hits.. Think 1270 an excellent fresh water wading machine. Begged Dave J a couple times and the response was always "no market for something like that" LOL



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2018 09:11AM by Jackpine.

Wow...excellent info....after using a CZ for 20 plus years and every model ever made of this unit its easily masked and wonder how many good finds I missed because of this...