Bitcoin, really?

I heard a bunch of support for this as last week's coin club meeting. Most old timers knew nothing of it; others were cautiously supportive and were getting in line with Albert. But then these are the guys lining up to buy raffle tickets to win the lone silver eagle.

[www.slate.com] (Abstract: Bitcoin = Ponzi Scheme)

Bitcoin may be useful for certain types of transactions, especially illegal ones. But bitcoin’s defenders argue that the experiment has proved that a currency can come into existence and function without any government role, so designed as to make inflation impossible and bank transfer fees unnecessary. These features are supposed to make bitcoins irresistible for consumers. Meanwhile, stripped of the power to manipulate currencies to advance nefarious ends, governments will collapse, and we will live in an anarcho-utopia.

Thank God detector technology will never find this stuff.

---

Tom, just delete this post if you feel it is inappropriate.

Go-Bankers, I mean Go-Rebels - You completely left out the point of bitcoin. You said nothing of it. You just attacked it. If you know nothing about it, why not ask? How can anyone take you serious if you just attack it? It's like just attacking an E-Trac and not giving any information, all the while E-Tracs work.

Short Video and a newby site to learn - [www.weusecoins.com]

It is worth noting Go-Rebels - the level of intelligence of the people behind bitcoin is immense. You have some brilliant mathematicians, cryptographers, security experts, programmers, economists, IT people, Lawyers, etc. It is simply like a Mensa collective (with more heart).

But let me help you out with the one point you brought up, a Ponzi Scheme. Basically a Ponzi Scheme functions by paying out profits to participants with money from new members. Basically, it's how the lottery works, in addition to it being a tax of sorts. Bitcoin is traded like a stock or commodity. It is nothing at all like a Ponzi Scheme - both in theory and practice. The price goes up and down due to supply and demand. Again, it is like a stock, commodity or currency but a bit more that we don't yet understand. Currently the demand is so far above the supply that it is a hard topic to even get into. The global financial situation imo is what is driving it. Thank you Cypress, the bankers messed up there.

If you guys wish to educate yourself on bitcoin (or gold/silver, USD, etc. for that matter) DON'T LISTEN TO Go-Rebels (no offense), he has already shown his lack of knowledge regarding economics in the gold/silver thread. Please educate yourself. Do the research. Don't trust me or anyone else. Make your own conclusions.

Price - [bitcoin.clarkmoody.com]
Articles & Videos - [www.thebitcoinchannel.com]
Forum (HUGE) talking about all areas, including a subeconomic forum - [bitcointalk.org]

My one concern for bitcoin is FinCen. But that will be handled in the courts and it is worth noting they are just concerned about Financial Crimes (e.g. - drug purchases, laundering money, etc.) Also, bitcoin is decentralized, so they could never stop it completely (which isn't there intention anyway).

Albert

ps - Go-Rebels, you do just realize you probably helped bitcoin out?
Yes, the Barbara Streisand effect of sorts.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2013 12:27PM by earthmansurfer.

Thanks for the info Earthman. I do like to educate myself, and my gut feeling is metals are going to rise back up.

You want talk about Ponzi schemes? Social Security, thats a Ponzi scheme.

Madoff based his off of it.

Quote; It is worth noting Go-Rebels - the level of intelligence of the people behind bitcoin is immense. You have some brilliant mathematicians, cryptographers, security experts, programmers, economists, IT people, Lawyers, etc.
Brilliance has always played a part in the larger ponzi schemes so not a deciding factor in my opinion of bitcoin . Looking forward to more on the subject from both promoters and those who think it is a scheme....

deathray - It is inevitable that gold/silver go back up. It will be a result of currency problems imo. They can only prevent the inevitable for so long, eventually something's got to give (e.g. another Cypress). Even if they unfortunately start a war, people to get things economically going again (which I pray they don't), that will then draw people in. Understand, China and Russsia are buying up gold. China doesn't even sell any of theirs. The gold supply has dried up in many non 1st world nations, and not due to the cost...

silverhound - Honestly, the part I mentioned about heart is true. Brilliance or smarts was not my main point, though it is a secondary foundation of sorts. These guys who are the first adopters of bitcoin are not there to make money. Most of them already have that. They are often nerds with good paying jobs and such. Many, many, many of them got in bitcoin to help change the system - primary foundation - statement. Read the White paper on bitcoin by Satoshi Nakamoto (an alias) to get a better idea. Look on the forums to see what I am talking about.

Albert

The concept of Bitcoin and it's premise is a good one. The problem I have at this point ( as mentioned in another post) is that when a virtual currency such as this, has the potential to change how financial transactions occur ( that is, buying and selling something in it's simplest form), and the fact that the currency used is not government issued nor can it be tracked or manipulated in the sense that hundreds of billions can be created out of thin air, then it will be attacked.

A certain exchange I believe has folded, Mt. Gox was shut down due to either enormous traffic or a DDoS attack ( and expect more of them in the future). In addition, due to a lot of people not being educated, bitcoin 'wallets' have been stolen since at this point the best thing to do is use the exchange to buy/sell and get out. Don't keep money in an 'account' ( at least that is what I have interpreted has happened in some instances....someone correct me if I am wrong on this)

As security measures increase and more people become aware of it's strengths and weaknesses, it can grow. It HAS to start becoming more mainstream to gain any traction. When it is first used as a 'black market' currency for drug transactions and other things where the parties want to stay anonymous, thats not a glowing testimony on a way to start. But hey, ya gotta start somewhere.

I stated in another post that I am liking more things tangible. Land, physical precious metals, goods, METAL DETECTORS ! But I am continuing to read and get informed about it. The argument for Bitcoin should be it's main premise is an alternate currency, with strict adherence to how it is created, with a STABLE and SECURE exchange mechanism, that can be used anonymously, and the secondary part is it can gain value but also be quite volatile, then maybe more people may want to check it out.

Right now I think most people think it's another form of a derivative that is manipulated and only used to trade and make money on wild price swings.

Rover - Bitcoin is sure to be attacked as you mentioned, and is actually already being attacked in a variety of ways (i.e. - Exchanges, not bitcoin, are being hit with DDOS, thousands of small transactions to lag systems, etc.) But, do we really expect an old dinosaur of a system to give up and let cryptocurrencies run things? Taking it head on just doesn't work. It seems we will have to slowly go around, much like the internet has done with traditional communications, data, information, etc.

Mt Gox (Which really is running on an engine designed for gaming, hence the name!) was not shut down by external forces. It was done by them, much like how the Stock Market will be frozen in the case of a huge drop. Nothing new there. The thing to really address here is that the exchanges need to follow a larger model to render DDOS attacks and other attacks mostly negligable. Eventually something huge along the lines of Amazon, NYSE, etc. But, what is probably even better given the subject, is a decentralized exchange, which is old hat at this point. My company was working on this with IBM'S DB DB2 over 12 years ago. Moves like this will mostly make DDOS attacks obsolete. But again, we are in the VERY EARLY growing stages. Just like the internet was in 93-97, and really still is today (in the big picture).

This is what we have to go through. If anyone thinks "Well, I'll just wait till things settle down." That is fine, but to have revolutionary changes, I prefer to become a member and not couch surf. It is my way of participating, just as I did with the internet. I'm happy to say I was one of the first people in the world to stream video online. A nice memory for me. Doesn't make me an expert here but I took part in something special and am again doing that now. (Not hugely by buying as I'm a poor English teacher, but by participating and sharing.)

Bitcoin wallets get hacked, just as bank accounts do and such. The thing to do is to have a paper wallet with your private key in your possession with the digital coins in the bitcoin network. That is what people do that have millions of dollars of bitcoin. It is more secure than you could imagine. The 256 tech is industry standard. If that got hacked, banks would have to worry, not bitcoin. That can be updated as bitcoin is open source, nothing hidden and some of the most brilliant programmers find the code... brilliant.

Regarding security concerns, Bitcoin itself is fine, as I stated in the preceding paragraph. What is not fine are personal accounts on the web, ewallets on personal computers and other such measures that are interacting with bitcoin and not bitcoin itself. Understand the security level of bitcoin is insane, it is mind boggling if you read about it. But that can be as it is and it just takes some keylogger software, a trojan on your home computer, a hacker into an online site (if you store yours there), etc. These are the same risks, in a sense, with regular money. We have to grow through it. Again, if you want to wait till it's all stable and secure (and bitcoin is trading at magnitudes greater value - if it is still around!) then that is understandable. For me, I'm not gambling, I'm just putting a very very small amount of money into something I believe in. Something that is peaceful and with great intentions. I'll take that chance everytime. It is like donating money to a cause you believe in with a potential return, that is all.

Tangible is great. But going forward we can't keep destroying the Earth. That is why the gold/silver, etc. (partly) gets more expensive. It is a bit like oil in that the easy stuff to mine is mostly mined. To me, the Earth is a living thing, and if we can get away from hurting her, then we should. This is coming from a guy with a few silver coins, so I am not judging here. We are all learning and evolving.

Regarding instability or volitility, I want you to ponder something. If the Euro and Dollar were strong and stable currencies. What would be the price of 1 bitcoin? (Bitcoin is around $150 dollars as of this writing). I say it would be nearly worthless as why use something as a currency if what you got is great? Outside of illegal activities, which the dollar is king of (Just see HSBC's billions of drug laundered money with no penalty given), there wouldn't be a market for bitcoin if only drug people were using it. There must be a regular base. It is pretty easy to see that the volitility of bitcoin is primarily driven by currencies that are on there last legs and a small population that see it. Of course there are other reasons, it is a cheap, near free payment system and currency, all in one! (and a technology like HTTP is.) On top of that the DDOS attacks, etc. are creating lots of fear, or rather were. The last few DDOS attacks, even though they had an effect on the servers, left the price unchanged. DDOS...

...Something to really understand here and it is a tough one, is that Bitcoin is anti-fragile. See, the opposite of fragile doesn't really exist in our language. It is not robust, or strong. Anti-fragile is something which adapts and adjusts and becomes stronger the harder you hit it. Outside of the internet going down (which like the security and bank example above stated - we would have much bigger problems.) Bitcoin is as anti-fragile as we've seen. Think of this, it has been on the net for over 4 years now I believe and the greatest minds have tried to hack, have attacked it, etc. It is still there. We see anti-fragile technoligies coming on to the scene now. i.e. Some tires harden in certain spots as they adapt to the conditions.

We are witnessing the beginning of something revolutionary. It is a Black Swan for the most part. It may not succeed and in the end it won't matter, but it can be something special. There is another virtual currency called Namecoin. It uses a similar technology to create a decentralized DNS system. No more of the US government shutting down sites (easily anyway) by taking control of centrally controlled DNS servers. Again, we are seeing something most of us have no idea of how powerful it is. I have a little bit of an idea, and it sends shivers through me. Last and really only time I had this feeling was when I was one of the early IT guys and realized "Oh my God, people don't understand what this internet thing is going to do" and it did and is still doing it. Bitcoin or really cryptocurrencies in general and their technologies are going to do to monetary controls and monies what the internet did to information control and transmission. If you understand what I'm really saying and it doesn't shock and almost scare you in a good way, then you don't really understand what I'm saying. It is a visionary tool or technology (not only a currency/payment system, commodity, stock when you look deeper into it) that can do more than you can imagine. The question is, will we be able to get there before...

Albert

LOL, This is the first bitcoin commercial I've seen. Surprised such a big star is the "spokesperson", but then again not...

[www.youtube.com]

Good read Albert...thanks for that info.

I know Mt. Gox was shut down by them (so they say....but ya never know). I do know they stated they were going to invest 25 million of more for more security and increased server capacity, so maybe they got a whiff of what has been happening to other sites and decided time to tighten up the hatches.

All I know is I picked up more silver bullion yesterday and some Morgans and Peace dollars today. I think silver is going to snap back a bit and then make another long term base before the next swing up. Gold is nuts at this point. Glad I got some more at 1345 but shoot, it can go back there in a heart beat ( and I will snap up another OZ if it does !).

I was talking to one of my LCS guys and I said it does not matter how low the price is, when there isn't any merchandise, it does not mean a thing ! He laughed and said so true. Bought the few Peace dollars he had and some of the better looking Morgans. One thing about them...they aren't making them anymore. Sad thing is the premiums are high at this point so you have to shop around because some guys charge a lot more than others. Back in July when silver was $27-$28, the Morgans were selling for $25. Today, silver is at $24 and the Morgans were $26 ! I don't care...I love those coins.

Rover - Glad you enjoyed it. I haven't had this much fun looking into something new in a while. I know it can crash and burn, but it seems like a bit of balance in a world gone mad...

MtGox - It stands for "Magic The Gathering Online eXchange" LOL! I am not kidding, it was really a online gaming site. There are big weaknesses in the bitcoin world but it's not Bitcoin, it's the exchanges. I read something that stated that the failure rate of bitcoin exchanges is around 45%. But don't let that number scare you. People have not been robbed, they have gotten their money and/or bitcoins. It is just a new area and a tough one given the speculative nature. That brings up the savior... might be the Venture Capitalists. They are starting to pour MILLIONS into Bitcoin. They know what it can do and see the banking crisis. Things are going to get fun. I really think that if there isn't another big war / terror attack, that the governments will be busy supporting the banks and something like Bitcoin will be a protection for people. It depends on how things go. But I know it's not a coincidence that all this is happening right now.

I think Silver is going to go up lots more than gold. As more of these currencies start to fail (and they will, it is looking terrible in the EU for Italy, Spain, Greece, etc.) you are going to see people TRY to buy silver and gold. They just won't trust the fiat currencies anymore (of which bitcoin is one, but as I said before it isn't centrally controlled and it is based on trust. What a word...)

I agree, silver and gold can keep going down, and it WON'T stop people from buying it. You know, the banks messed up with that short sale. People are getting to the point that they just don't listen to the news like they used to. Gold and silver (nor bitcoin) are not the final answer, but it sure is a better intermediary than paper money that is being printed endlessly. Hey, what would happen to war if we got away from centrally controlled currencies?

Thanks for the Morgan idea... (Just checked Ebay, man, they are going for $30 on up!) When and if we start trading in silver/gold slightly, I think the older circulated silver coins will be the most useful. Silver dimes and such are really valuable for small items. An ounce of silver might be worth quite a bit product wise if you know what I mean. Golds value makes trading it for small items impossible. Pick up some silver dimes

Albert

Albert,

I have been buying rolls of Mercury dimes for awhile now. Also, I have kept every silver coin I have found over the years detecting. Way back in the day ( and still today to a degree ) it had nothing to do with making money. I just like the older silver US coins. Morgans are my favorite...then mercs. Barbers are cool, Peace dollars, Liberties of all types....any silver US coin for the most part. Whether they end up at face value or 100X, I am buying gold and silver to pass on to my son.

At this point looks like the after hours market is heating up. Will be very interesting tomorrow if we break out past $1500. I had thought we would be in the 1300-1400 trading range for awhile, but it seems the take down backfired. Only question is, do they have enough powder to do it again. Rumors are swirling vaults are getting lower on the physical so I think they are in a pickle. The shorts are getting squeezed as the price goes up....the vaults are getting hammered when the price goes down.

It would be nice to see JP Morgan get hurt big in the pockets. They may be eating each other now, with Goldman Sachs trying to screw JPM.

We can help by purchasing a little gold and silver. We have to remember, the common folk far outnumber the elites....and hopefully the old saying there is power in numbers still prevails.

If I can't put in my pocket, I don't want it.

Rover - I do think the short backfired but perhaps they are close to being cornered OR close to starting another ? People are watching the news less and less and getting their "news" from alternative sources. Look at what we are doing here. These types of talks are happening on facebook and forums across the world. People are just not buying the government line. They are seeing the banks get away with HUGE crimes and that regular people go to prison for years for "nothing crimes". There is something building in the collective and it is growing. You can feel it and you can observe it. Yes, there are still lots of sheeple, but more and more people are waking up. We're getting closer to, or perhaps at, that 100th monkey.



People don't care so much what the price of goldor or silver are. When you see your currency collapsing you would rather have something trusted for thousands of years than something that traditionally fails after just a few years. My friend told me the other day "I really won't buy more silver as I don't have much money left" (liquid money). I just said, "I don't see what you are doing as buying silver per say. You are moving your money into different assets as it is dangerous to keep it all in Euros, dollars, Yen, etc." Isn't that what the financial systems have taught us anyway? Diversify?

I don't know what it is, I don't have a silver bug and never had one. But the only coins that have ever interested me regarding detecting were silver coins! They just felt and looked real to me. Too bad we don't have nearly as many to find here in Germany.

Gold and silver can pop up any day, but it will take something to do it. I am not sure what is happening in Ireland and some of the other EU countries but many say the banks their are very close to having a Cypress like meltdown. If ONE more bank has a collapse like that, it is over. The first time people reluctantly will accept it. The second time (coupled with their observations and intuitions) oh boy, the SH*T will hit the fan. I say we are close but just don't see the obvious.



Again, I really feel Bitcoins chance is the economic and political climate. If it came any sooner we wouldn't be having this talk but there is so much happening in the world that it has a chance but it won't be smooth.

Albert

Finally...

U.S. Officials Freeze An Account Linked to Bitcoin Exchange

[online.wsj.com]

Have to subscribe to read the article. Fill me in.

[money.cnn.com]

[www.forbes.com]

go-rebels Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Finally...
>
> U.S. Officials Freeze An Account Linked to Bitcoin
> Exchange
>
> [online.wsj.com]
> 82904578485391717441224.html

What do you mean finally?

Since that happened - two days ago - Bitcoin is higher. It isn't really news. They didn't go after bitcoin, they went after a middleman company, a large exchange was using to process funds. They will either be fined or jailed (probably the former) since that is all that is called for. It is a weak point in the bitcoin infrastructure - a large centralized exchange. That needs to change and the regulators are helping that out - thx.

You want Bitcoin news - here is something, last week or there abouts China's biggest nationalized station CCTV had a 30 minute special on Bitcoin. [www.youtube.com] It was around 90% positive. Why? Why would a station that is run by the Chinese government say something positive to BILLIONS of people? It is called the start of currency wars in all likelyhood. Now China is also on the Bitcoin map, as is Europe.

Want more news, More big investors coming in - 3 founders of Paypal have started funding Bitcoin infrastructure.[libertyblitzkrieg.com]
Wait, there is more - BitPay claimed 1,900 new merchants signed up in April and it continues to sign up over 100 new customers every day. It is currently processing around $5m of Bitcoin transactions per month. [libertyblitzkrieg.com]

Any of those 3 things above dwarf the bad news you just mentioned, and the price is reflective of that.

Now, I'm not saying Bitcoin is going to succeed, but it is making a statement. Why don't you present both sides? All you do is attack? Where is your interest vested, in the stock market? LOL We should care about those that don't have enough and not those that have too much.

And by the way, the stock market is higher than ever before... and so is margin debt. Real or Memorex? People with money have no way of getting good returns on deposits as interest rates have been held artificially low, so more money for the stock market. Chew on that one...

Albert



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2013 12:24PM by earthmansurfer.

Albert, the freeze was put in place to minimize the likelihood of money laundering. With such safeguards put in place you should applaud the change.

Bitcoin becomes no more attractive to me when the Chinese government begins advertising in their behalf. I see no good with Chicom backing...

----

A used 'mint' CTX recently sold on EBay for $1625, a new low.

go-rebels Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Albert, the freeze was put in place to minimize
> the likelihood of money laundering. With such
> safeguards put in place you should applaud the
> change.
>
> Bitcoin becomes no more attractive to me when the
> Chinese government begins advertising in their
> behalf. I see no good with Chicom backing...
>
> ----
>
> A used 'mint' CTX recently sold on EBay for $1625,
> a new low.


Did you even read my post? I said it was a good thing. It creates a rough patch but opens things up. Looks like a price breakout as we speak actually. [bitcoin.clarkmoody.com]

Bitcoin doesn't need to become more attractive to you. I understand your mind is made up. My point with the China news is that this is bigger than one country. For once it doesn't matter what America thinks (solely). BTC is a decentralized currency. Something the world has needed for a long time. Centralized banks fund wars, launder money (HSBC 6 Billion plus) and rob from people (Cypress, America, etc.)

Bitcoin is about bringing change. Not about profit. It is a chance worth taking for the good of all, not just a few.

And you never answered the question. What is you point posting FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and doubt) regarding Bticoin? Why are you hostile to it while accepting of the stock market which is in large part related to manipulation of the money supply and as stated above money is rolling into it as interest rates being so artificially low cause people to park money in it. People with money.

Albert

Just had to post this news as it is some of the largest in Bitcoin to date. [www.thegenesisblock.com]

"WebMoney, considered the PayPal of Russia, announced the addition bitcoin as a payment option today. This will enable both merchant as well as person-to-person transfers. WebMoney had over 11 million users in 2010, and this number has no doubt grown significantly since then. WebMoney accounts are called purses, and transactions can be denominated in bitcoin, gold, USD and rubles among several others. All transactions are irreversible so there is little concern for charge-backs like PayPal would face....

WebMoney is entering the four markets TGB described as potential opportunities for paypal: merchant tools, online wallets, exchanges and escrow. Clearly, they are beating PayPal in the race for adoption."

This is HUGE news and for more than one reason. Really recommend reading the whole article. Note the escrow feature - paypal take notice.

I hear that users from inside America can't use the service (due to FinCen and other such rules that complicates transactions) but we are essentially saying that PayPal in Russia just added OVER 11 million eyes to a new and low cost "payment system" (and also currency, commodity, disruptive technology, protocol, etc. in BTC (Bitcoin)).
Last week or so news from China, now Russia. We are truly talking a decentralized global currency. Also consider that development in BTC is now going into its next gear over in these "new" countries to implement friendlier services, user interfaces, etc.

Albert

Quote
earthmansurfer
.
Last week or so news from China, now Russia.

Oh, that just gives me a new level of confidence!

go-rebels Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> .
> Last week or so news from China, now Russia.
>
>
> Oh, that just gives me a new level of confidence!


Your responses are predictable. You like to ignore the facts and in a sense and pick and choose key points, instead of looking at the whole data set. You are making this into an "American" thing. You realize we exist together on a planet? The borders are going away and acceptance of a new currency in areas that have potentially millions (out of billions of people there) of users is tremendous. - Not to make money, but to change currency as we know it. To get control of life again, eventually. And all you can say is "Oh, that just gives me a new level of confidence!". Really, can you just try to open your mind up a bit and see what I am talking about instead of making this an all or nothing discussion?

Go-Rebels

Since your original post on April 24th (7 months), Bitcoin (BTC) has gone from $150 to $806, an increase of 537%.
Next year, perhaps this year, it will cross $1000 and not come back down. I estimate in a few years it will be trading at over $10,000 per BTC. I'm not bragging, I'm saying it is a chance still worth taking.
The market cap is 9 billion. Some of the brightest people in the IT field, VC's, etc estimate, that EASILY, the market cap of these cryptocurrencies could be in the trillions in a few years. That means my before prediction is very conservative. The cryptocurrencies (there are many others) are not going anywhere, as they are too disruptive and you can't stop a protocol. Anyone remember how successful the governments were at stopping torrent.

Now, the cryptocurrencies are risky but it looks like governments are open to them. I have since sold some of my profits to pay for my initial investment. So I am essentially at no risk.

Some news since last time.
-Here in Germany - The government said if you hold them more than one year you pay ZERO capital gains. (Korea just followed but there is no holding period.)
-The US had Senate hearings last week and that went EXTREMELY well.
-The Chinese governent has given the silent ok on BTC's. They are not stopping people from using them. They had a 90 minute BTC special on their main propaganda channel. And now the Chinese Google accepted them as of a month or two ago. It is blowing up there, hit $1000 last week. If you know how repressive China's government is, this is a HUGE sign. They said they would loosen capital controls and have. Also, The Chinese government is too heavily vested in inflating USD and see BTC as a partial hedge against that, at least for the people. And, The Chinese are crazy investors. They take care of themselves, the government doesn't.
- More and more companies are accepting BTC's. Moreso online of course.
- HUGE money has been flowing into BTC. VC funds, etc. From the actual coin purchases to investments in BTC start ups and technologies.
The list is just growing by leaps and bounds.

Understand, there has never been a class of "stock" or the like like BTC. It is essentially:
A stock (in the network - Which is the LARGEST computer network in the world.)
A protocol - which can be built upon
A currency (This is where the Senate hearing focussed on.)
A commodity
An Asset
Payment System
A platform - It is open, it can be built on. We really don't understand what this means 5 years down the road.
A disruptive technology - It is doubtful that Western Union lasts another year, just from BTC alone.
ETC.

I still think, even at these prices, this is a chance worth taking. But, it can be a volatile ride. Don't watch it too much. :-)
BTC might go down permanently, that is of course a risk, but if you study the technology, you might start to see what many see regarding the upside.
Anyway, it is not about the money, this is a disruptive technology that can bring much relief to a corupt banking system (amongst others) that is just killing the world and profiting from war.

This "technology" is very hard for people to get a grasp on - just look at that partial list I gave above. But, with certainty, I can say it is game changing and right on schedule. It is still in the VERY early days if you can imagine that. Don't think of what 1 BTC costs, it is rather a store of value, etc; Whether you buy .1 BTC or 10 BTC.

You can follow some news (good and bad) here: [www.thebitcoinchannel.com]

Albert



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2013 07:36PM by earthmansurfer.

Albert, how much is 1 bitcoin? How do you purchase them? Can you trade them for precious metals....Like you said...I can't quite grasp the value/significance.

Hi Ozzie,

I suggest you take a look here, very Nooby site. [www.weusecoins.com]
1BTC is around $800 depending on the exchange. Coinbase is an American place to buy that is easy I hear. Many (Americans) use BitStamp in the UK.
The problem is that you need to have good security. If you are only buying a few, then you can store them on the Exchange, but you must use 2 Factor Authentication (smart phone with Google mail setup) as their are thiefs out there. You can also print a paper wallet and store it somewhere safe. The "BTC" is actually on the BTC Blockchain (the online ledger) but only you have the SHA256 secure key. The blockchain is an entire ledger of every transaction and it is distributed across the internet, taking up around 16Gb of space these days. Privacy is a concern as BTC is not anonymous and don't let someone tell you it is. But that isn't the issue right now and there are things on the horizon to bring more privacy. (By this I mean when you purchase a coin online, you have to pay with something and that can tie you to the unique ID of the coin, and then to you eventually.)

The other possiblity is to buy a physical BTC from Casascius (on Ebay, higher premium) or one from Titan (who I think is great) direct - [www.titanbtc.com]
Basically, it has the private key (like a password) under the sticker. The public key (like an account number so you can check the balance online) is above the holographic sticker.

There are a few stores popping up where you can buy gold/silver for BTC. BTC, in a very real way, is like digital gold, but it is more secure (a problem with gold now, at least newer coins/bars, is the tungsten in many of them.)

I worked in the early days of the internet. I saw the disruptive force that it would become. Not many did, really. You would be surprised. I have a knack for this stuff. Bitcoin might be more disruptive than the internet. Just look at the list of things it does NOW, in a few years it will be even more. These disruptive forces don't come along every day. Bitcoin is an Anti-Fragile Disruptive Technology. (Or rather cryptocurrencies are.)

You really need to do some reading as this is a difficult thing to describe. But I hope I pointed you in the right direction. Again, the risk is huge, but so is the reward (and the reward is not just monetarily. Remember, this is a disruptive technology.)

Good luck,
Albert

Albert, I'm glad you brought this up again. I mentioned this to my nephew this past spring, who is a computer wiz. That's what his living is.
He knew about bitcoins already and had intentions of building a mining operation......beyond me.
I just texted him about it again. He said after the 'silk road fiasco' he thought it would get squashed.....whatever that means. Anyway, we are setting up a meeting with family members to discuss bitcoins.

So, thanks for the reminder! AND the links.

Federal Reserve Notes, really?

If you have little faith in the un-backed make believe Bitcoin, then don't look into how Federal Reserve Notes are created and what REAL value they REALLY have. THAT would scare ANYBODY.

Bitcoin, Federal Reserve Note, not much difference. One is backed by anonymous, unknown people and is subject to being audited and the other is backed by a DIFFERENT group of anonymous, unknown people who answer to no one. At least Bitcoin has some form of oversight...

wildwally1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Federal Reserve Notes, really?
>
> If you have little faith in the un-backed make
> believe Bitcoin, then don't look into how Federal
> Reserve Notes are created and what REAL value they
> REALLY have. THAT would scare ANYBODY.
>
> Bitcoin, Federal Reserve Note, not much
> difference. One is backed by anonymous, unknown
> people and is subject to being audited and the
> other is backed by a DIFFERENT group of anonymous,
> unknown people who answer to no one. At least
> Bitcoin has some form of oversight...

There are more differences than what you list and the list is long (but thanks for getting it started):

With the FED you have a group of Private bankers printing money for profit and war,... endlessly. Ben Bernanke, one man, is deciding your future. The money held in your bank is losing its value.
With BTC you have a decentralized, Stateless, mathematically secure, deflationary (practically speaking) currency. There is no one individual responsible for it or the other Crypo's. There is no country to bomb to stop its use (Actually a worldwide EMP blast could). (Bombing - Much like we did to Iraq and Libya when they went away from dollars.) It is OPEN SOURCE - Yes, the source code is freely available and viewable. Many many computer scientists have had a look at it. Many have helped make it better and they do that and it is checked before release. Does the FED show you there books? Do they do what is best for people? If you believe the anonymous creator of BTC, it was created to reel in banks and finance. BUT, it could have been created by the CIA. And in the 60's there LSD experiment got a bit away from them. And the military created the internet and we've used that quite successfully as well.

Money is based on Faith. Gold has a value of near $200 for industrial use. Beyond that it is faith. We really need to have a close look at what Money means. And BTC is getting people to question that.
Money is designed as an exchange. We use the word intrinsic to make is sound like something has a "physical value." But that is an old way of thinking about things. BTC has the intrinsic value of being mathematically secure, a payment system, an asset, etc. Of note, BTC is mostly being used as an asset right now. The other things listed above in my list are coming into fruition still.

In 2014 you will probably see Hedge funds get involved. Not exactly loving that idea, but that at least makes it grow more exponentially. Again, this is just starting. But, the BTC has entered the S-Curve up phase. Rarely can the public get involved in such adoptive phases. e.g. Microsoft, Twitter, Facebook, etc. had exponential rises but when they were mostly private.

Ozzie - Let us know how things go.

And guys, whether or not you like BTC and Crypto's, watch the disruption and what they do over the next few years. It is the worlds largest social experiment. A seed has been planted for change and something to develop from.

I should add, I don't think BTC, etc. is THE answer. I think it is AN answer. It gets us going in a better direction. Between now and 2140 we will go from under 12 million BTC's to 21 million. I really don't think we will be using money as we do now, then. If we are, then we have probably failed as a species.

Albert

ps -

Introductions to BTC, great videos from this guy:
1 - [www.youtube.com]
2 - [www.youtube.com]
S-Cuve growth Video [www.youtube.com]
Regulation Nighmare for governments - [www.youtube.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2013 07:30AM by earthmansurfer.

Thanks for all the info Albert.

" Money is based on faith" One of the theories on why gold continues to get hammered is because they want to keep the 'faith' in the dollar. Unfortunately more and more deals and agreements are being made by other countries to circumvent the dollar ( and using gold as the backing) . Only a matter of time when faith is lost in the dollar and then what ?

Interesting times indeed. At this point at least gold and silver have some industrial use. But the way our society is going, where we make less and less and provide 'services' more and more, is it any wonder things like BTC take hold to correspond to our service oriented work force ? The word globalization is bantered around constantly. In a globalized world, it makes perfect sense to have an electronic way to pay for things. But that electronic world is becoming easier and easier to hack. The question will become does one have more 'faith' in their 'wallet' being stolen from them on their person ( or their gold, silver and valuables in a safe at home or safety deposit box), or in the electronic world. It is a heck of a lot easier to use BTC to purchase things in other countries, and I think it will continue to grow. At this point I just don't like the chart....to parabolic for me. But as it becomes harder and harder to mine, will it level off and become more stable. Major price swings in both directions will continue, but that may also happen to gold, silver and the stock market too.

Question will become in the future, as China continues to realize they have a mass population that can turn into consumers and they will not have to rely on other countries to purchase their goods and services, will they continue to buy physical gold like they are, or will they start to rotate out of that and into BTC ( or some other crypto or alternative currency) ?


Maybe the next currency is not gold, fiat, BTC but 'work units'. Problem becomes, how is 'work' defined. Maybe in the near future, in order to get 'paid' you actually have to DO SOMETHING.

Right now lots of people get 'paid' for doing nothing. Read a pretty disturbing article about Greece and how people are actually giving themselves the AIDS virus in order to get a $700 a month benefit check. Not sure how true or false it is, but desperate times call for desperate measures.