Bitcoin, really?

Albert,your comments about those speaking negatively about it are ignorant are dead on in my case...it shouldnt be this complicated and take this much explaining. just my oponion.

earthmansurfer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> If you really understood bitcoin, I think you
> would be a bit more open about it. None of us
> really understand it.
>
> Albert


I understand it, but after the statement above, I'm not so sure that you do.

To sum it up, some things are finite, and as more people inhabit this earth, the value goes up because of simple supply and demand. Some things are infinite, and their value is only based off of trust only. Government based currency is one great example. Bitcoin is another. Since bitcoin is a made up currency(same as paper money, only digital), the only thing that stops more from being introduced, is the company backing it. For example; if Satoshi Nakamoto(bitcoin developer) ever runs into financial trouble, what is going to stop him from introducing more bitcoin at a faster rate than the current 25 bitcoin per block every ten minutes ? Have any of you heard of a thing called human greed?

[www.cnbc.com]

Earthmansurfer...I wonder how much " Bitcoins" you are make clogging up this thread with the same words repeated over and over and over again? One thing I learned a long time ago that has served me very well for the better part of my life...everybody has an agenda!!! The more someone pushes their opinions or their beliefs on someone else, the more exposed becomes that agenda. I wonder why this is so important to you to convince a bunch of people, on a metal detecting forum of all places, that money that exists in cyber space is suddenly more interesting than coins that get lost in the ground and we find them later with a metal detector? It just does not compute in my books! Sorry.

diggers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> just why arent Paypal moving in to this area of
> digital currency ?after all they have a head start
> on everybody else with a network in place .Or even
> Western Union with their long established money
> moving network around the globe.


They are and they (president) slipped by saying they are developing a digital wallet. (Probably with Bitcoin integrated is most peoples bet.)

deathray Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Albert,your comments about those speaking
> negatively about it are ignorant are dead on in my
> case...it shouldnt be this complicated and take
> this much explaining. just my oponion.

Sometimes revolutionary disruptive technology is not for the masses to understand.
In the next year you will see remittances done without the user knowing bitcoin is behind the transfer. That is being developed.

To understand bitcoin the money is simple, to understand the rest - we are just starting to get a grasp on it.
Past technology is not proof of what future innovations might be like.

To put it simple, bookmark this, and check back in in 1 year. If I'm wrong that is ok, I have not lost anything and I've taken part in something I think can help humanity as banking currently is corrupted, centralization does that.

Albert

Arthur-Canada Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Earthmansurfer...I wonder how much " Bitcoins" you
> are make clogging up this thread with the same
> words repeated over and over and over again? One
> thing I learned a long time ago that has served me
> very well for the better part of my
> life...everybody has an agenda!!! The more someone
> pushes their opinions or their beliefs on someone
> else, the more exposed becomes that agenda. I
> wonder why this is so important to you to convince
> a bunch of people, on a metal detecting forum of
> all places, that money that exists in cyber space
> is suddenly more interesting than coins that get
> lost in the ground and we find them later with a
> metal detector? It just does not compute in my
> books! Sorry.

I didn't start this thread. I contributed to it. If you don't want to take part, then don't. If you don't understand something then learn, if you still can't undestand it, then move on. You are just adding to the clutter.

My agenda - It is VERY VERY SIMPLE. Let me define it for the board:

I want to see war and killing stop. That starts by fixing a corrupt monetary system. Decentralized Stateless currencies reflect the will of the people, not centralized power structures. They are not the answer, but an answer.
I want to see peace. I see a chance here. Money is being printed, weapons created, countries invaded and people killed (and we pay the interest on it). There is no longer a war tax, we have had no real choice in the killing.
Money is secretive, it hides behind the respectable walls of banks (e.g. HSBC/Wachovia laundered 100's of billions of Drug Cartel money, killing 20,000 in the process. And no jail time. The courts said it would destabilize our banking system.)
So is it fair to say, I love people and I'd like the suffering to stop and I see a means of going in that direction here? (But that is so outside concensus, that few believe it, except those who have spent time with me. Selfless is a tough concept to grasp.)

That is my agenda,
Albert



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2014 07:53AM by earthmansurfer.

Japan poised to impose a tax on bitcoin transactions

The Japanese government has said it's in favor of levying a tax on all bitcoin transactions. The tax could initiate formal regulation of the troubled virtual unit, which is also suspected of aiding money laundering.
Bitcoin Flexcoin Bank Krise

The government of Japan said Friday it did not recognize bitcoin as a currency, but insisted transactions involving it should in the future be subject to taxation.

"As a matter of common sense, if there are transactions and subsequent gains, it is natural for the Finance Ministry to consider how it can impose taxes," Chief Cabinet Secretary Yoshihide Suga told reporters in Tokyo.

Suga added the government was currently sorting out exactly in what way the nation could become a global leader in regulating bitcoins and similar virtual units generated by complex chains of interactions among a worldwide computer network.

No timetable yet
Virtual currency for smartphones

The resulting anonymity of bitcoins and lack of supervisory instruments has been attacked by critics who fear the units could also be used to finance organized crime and terrorism. Some countries such as Russia and China have already cracked down on bitcoins by severely restricting their use.

Recent security issues have not added to bitcoin's financial clout either. The bankruptcy of the Mt. Gox Exchange, which once accounted for some 80 percent of all bitcoin transactions globally, only seemed to have been the start of a longer series of failures caused by hackers. A Canadian-based exchange was also closed earlier this week.

Japan indicated it didn't necessarily want to go it alone in trying to get a grip on bitcoin, suggesting that any regulation should involve international cooperation right from the start to avoid loopholes.

hg/dr (AFP, Reuters)

Just remember that Bitcoin is one of many crypto-currencies. Pay Pal, Amazon, etc. can very well devise their own. For me, I would much rather have an established entity like Amazon store my crypto-currency in a 'secure wallet' ( still can't grasp that one !), then an exchange like Mt. Gox, Bitstamp, etc. At least Amazon has the infrastructure and resources to make it work.

This is a hypothetical for me. At this point, I still make my weekly trip to the LCS for Morgans and bullion.

Albert Stated; I want to see war and killing stop. That starts by fixing a corrupt monetary system. Decentralized Stateless currencies reflect the will of the people, not centralized power structures. They are not the answer, but an answer.
I want to see peace. I see a chance here. Money is being printed, weapons created, countries invaded and people killed (and we pay the interest on it). There is no longer a war tax, we have had no real choice in the killing.
Money is secretive, it hides behind the respectable walls of banks (e.g. HSBC/Wachovia laundered 100's of billions of Drug Cartel money, killing 20,000 in the process. And no jail time. The courts said it would destabilize our banking system.)
So is it fair to say, I love people and I'd like the suffering to stop and I see a means of going in that direction here? (But that is so outside concensus, that few believe it, except those who have spent time with me. Selfless is a tough concept to grasp.)

That is my agenda,
Albert
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now your'e talking Albert.

Guys, this is the big nut. Diggers, your'e proving Albert's point. The elitists running/controlling our lives see that this is a huge threat to their dominion, they will do anything to try and work it in their favor.
If they don't like it, and they fight against it... it's more than likely a good thing.

I'm seeing that there are many groups of the most powerful people on earth competing against each other at the expense and lives of common men and women. They need us, but we are just the moving parts to them.

They have no heart except for becoming tyrants...they will do everything imaginable to stay in power....it's a sickness...the world is in a very bad way.

Cryptocurrency may be a way to dethrone them, my guess is, that's why it was invented.

Regular good people are finally seeing (through the information age/internet) how the world is being manipulated, at any cost. Look past making a profit from it. It's a way to barter without having a third, fourth and fifth etc. greedy manipulating hand in the mix.
The noxious harmful class running this earth, will be stopped somehow and maybe this is a twinkle of hope,....I'm not sure how it will turn out. It may and could bite us in the butt, at first......we'll see.

earthmansurfer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Arthur-Canada Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Earthmansurfer...I wonder how much " Bitcoins"
> you
> > are make clogging up this thread with the same
> > words repeated over and over and over again?
> One
> > thing I learned a long time ago that has served
> me
> > very well for the better part of my
> > life...everybody has an agenda!!! The more
> someone
> > pushes their opinions or their beliefs on
> someone
> > else, the more exposed becomes that agenda. I
> > wonder why this is so important to you to
> convince
> > a bunch of people, on a metal detecting forum
P
> I didn't start this thread. I contributed to it.
> If you don't want to take part, then don't. If you
> don't understand something then learn, if you
> still can't undestand it, then move on. You are
> just adding to the clutter.
>
> My agenda - It is VERY VERY SIMPLE. Let me define
> it for the board:
>
> I want to see war and killing stop. That starts by
> fixing a corrupt monetary system. Decentralized
> Stateless currencies reflect the will of the
> people, not centralized power structures. They are
> not the answer, but an answer.
> I want to see peace. I see a chance here. Money is
> being printed, weapons created, countries invaded
> and people killed (and we pay the interest on it).
> There is no longer a war tax, we have had no real
> choice in the killing.
> Money is secretive, it hides behind the
> respectable walls of banks (e.g. HSBC/Wachovia
> laundered 100's of billions of Drug Cartel money,
> killing 20,000 in the process. And no jail time.
> The courts said it would destabilize our banking
> system.)
> So is it fair to say, I love people and I'd like
> the suffering to stop and I see a means of going
> in that direction here? (But that is so outside
> concensus, that few believe it, except those who
> have spent time with me. Selfless is a tough
> concept to grasp.)
>
> That is my agenda,
> Albert


I told you so! There is always a hidden agenda. Somehow you have yourself convinced Bitcoins is going to save the world! I'm sure everyone has heard the old saying..."power corrupts...absolute power corrupts absolutely" .

Maybe we should bookmark the threat and check back in a year or two and see what really happens. As Bitcoins become more prevalent the people who use them will find a way to use them to be corrupt. Mark my words. You are entitled to your opinions and so am I, but our opinions do not make the facts change. All the problems in the world are not caused by money. They are caused by man kinds desire to control one another...from a one on one basis, all the way up the chain to a global dominance.

Man kind has a fundamental flaw...the belief in scarcity! We all believe there is not enough to go around for everyone, so the only way to ensure our own supply is to control others...all the way up the chain. Belief that there is not enough money to go around is the biggest controlling factor today in all societies. In my humble opinion, there ain't no "new" form of currency in the world, real or imagined, that is going to change any of that. Currency is just a by-product of control...it is not the means by which it is achieved. Don't believe me?...look back in history at how many leaders, especially the corrupt ones, have risen from nothing to control the minds, beliefs and actions of thousands and millions of people to do their bidding for them. In that we are in agreement...the world is a mess. However, this is not solved by changing the kind of currency around the world.

I choose not to be so naive.

Rover - If Pay Pal, Amazon, etc. devise their own currency, it will be centrally controlled. That doesn't help when the S*** hits the fan, not to mention ANYTHING centrally controlled can be taken down via force (legal, military, etc.)
ANY centrally controlled currency that acts as an asset, is deflationary, etc. would be by it's very nature a threat to fiat monies AND, be taken down. Look at liberty dollar, and the list goes on.
A cryptocurrency controlled by a company would be more of the same (It could still have utility, but we are talking apples and spaceships here, miles apart). ANY TIME you have something centrally controlled you just cut off the head - presto, "problem" solved.
These Cryptocurrencies are making control of currencies extremely difficult. And the underlying transparent ledger system is going to cause a huge decrease in corruption regarding corporations. It is simply unbelievable where this is going to go.
Watch this and his other videos. Brilliant man. [www.youtube.com]
Trust me on this guys, watch a few of his videos, he really gets what this technology means and explains it much much better than most can.

This is one interesting experiment.

Ozzie - Thanks. One thing to add, these new currencies, as you alluded to, are causing a lot of intelligent and average people to start questioning what money is, what really gives it value, etc.
That can only help "the cause".

Albert

Arthur-Canada Wrote:
> I told you so! There is always a hidden agenda.
> Somehow you have yourself convinced Bitcoins is
> going to save the world! I'm sure everyone has
> heard the old saying..."power corrupts...absolute
> power corrupts absolutely" .
>
> Maybe we should bookmark the threat and check back
> in a year or two and see what really happens. As
> Bitcoins become more prevalent the people who use
> them will find a way to use them to be corrupt.
> Mark my words. You are entitled to your opinions
> and so am I, but our opinions do not make the
> facts change. All the problems in the world are
> not caused by money. They are caused by man kinds
> desire to control one another...from a one on one
> basis, all the way up the chain to a global
> dominance.
>
> Man kind has a fundamental flaw...the belief in
> scarcity! We all believe there is not enough to go
> around for everyone, so the only way to ensure our
> own supply is to control others...all the way up
> the chain. Belief that there is not enough money
> to go around is the biggest controlling factor
> today in all societies. In my humble opinion,
> there ain't no "new" form of currency in the
> world, real or imagined, that is going to change
> any of that. Currency is just a by-product of
> control...it is not the means by which it is
> achieved. Don't believe me?...look back in history
> at how many leaders, especially the corrupt ones,
> have risen from nothing to control the minds,
> beliefs and actions of thousands and millions of
> people to do their bidding for them. In that we
> are in agreement...the world is a mess. However,
> this is not solved by changing the kind of
> currency around the world.
>
> I choose not to be so naive.

Arthur, baby steps my friend... it is a step in the right direction, an answer, not the answer. I have been VERY clear there. If we have money in 100 years, we will have failed as a species.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2014 01:53PM by earthmansurfer.

Okay. See you in a year or two! :-)

Cheers.

If you want to slowly loose you freedoms year after year, then stick with what's not working...don't try anything else and hope for the best. If someone can come up with a system to knock these low-life elitists off their high perches, I'm willing to listen.
I believe in a Constitutional Republic and Capitalism...just don't like when the market is controlled by the all powerful, where it hurts/ruins/kills millions to line their vaults.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2014 07:37PM by ozzie.

[gizmodo.com]

I've noticed a few News articles recently about bitcoin, as it seems to be starting another 'price surge', and that always gets the press interested. These articles showing the scale of the process of 'bitcoin mining' are amazing, and make me wonder if, 8 month on, is Albert still mining? It rather sounds like it's only viable on a large-scale basis now, with the cheapest power source possible.
[www.ibtimes.co.uk]
[www.ibtimes.co.uk]

go-rebels Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry fellas -
>
> Bitcoin virtual currency is on verge of collapse
>
> February 25, 2014, 7:31 p.m.
>
> It was supposed to revolutionize the global
> monetary system. Instead, the bitcoin virtual
> currency that has captured the imagination of
> investors and financiers is on the verge of
> collapse.
>
> In a stunning blow to a novel way to buy products
> and services, the world's largest exchange for
> trading bitcoin currency shut down Tuesday,
> triggering a massive sell-off and sending many
> prospective investors away — perhaps for good.
>
> [www.latimes.com]
> apse-20140226,0,5968430.story#ixzz2uQfsgdfC

Happy New Year everyone

Just a little update. Bitcoin has not collapsed and has been doing quite good. A risky experiment continues.
Current price $433 [bitcoinwisdom.com]

The best performing currency has been bitcoin the last 4 out of 5 years, including 2015. [medium.com]
It was the worst performing the year before, lol, but not a bad statistic considering it shot up to 1200 USD in 2013 and came down hard and is still retracing.

Another interesting statistic, there was over 1 Billion USD invested into Bitcoin infrastructure. This is while it's market cap was in the rang of 3-5 billion or so, Last time we've seen that kind of money come into a technology like this? Internet.
[money.cnn.com]

I think bitcoin will stay legal in most of the world, at least for a few more years. By that time the Trojan Horse will most likely be ingrained into our financial system. I think it is going to change the way we do money and a whole lot more that is so beyond money, it is scary.
Really enjoy seeing a disruptive technology like this. Long overdue. The banks are already feeling immense amounts of pressure. They are talking about making their own "blockchains" and such. Serves some function but nothing revolutionary. ALL banks are
looking into this, every single one of them. And some of them are looking heavily into bitcoin itself. [www.reuters.com]

If bitcoin is not over $10,000 by the end of 2017, I will be absolutely shocked. And the number of businesses it will disintermediate by then will be huge. I didn't pick that figure out of thin air. I'm looking at the market cap which currently is around 5 Billion.
It is going to need to get to the 100's of Billions and eventually trillions to fulfill it's role. There is a tremendous amount of money, already mentioned, moving into the companies.
The remittance use of bitcoin is exploding. The surrounding tech on top of it is exploding. 2016 will be a big year.

This is one very risky experiment. Only "invest" what you can lose if you decide to. Just Google some videos for information if curious.

Best,
Albert

"It makes me wonder if, 8 month on, is Albert still mining?"
So, now 12 months since I asked, are your miners still productive?

Bitcoin Foundation Struggles To Sustain Its Existence - CCN: Financial Bitcoin & Cryptocurrency News

[www.cryptocoinsnews.com]

It's totally dependant on the power grid,What if the grid goes down for an extended time period, what is one going to use for currency to survive.. Our power grid is a mess(yes shut a few more coal plants- that aught to do it)An emf pulsewould also put it down(either natural or man made) I don't think it'll pass that test'

Pimento Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "It makes me wonder if, 8 month on, is Albert
> still mining?"
> So, now 12 months since I asked, are your miners
> still productive?

I can't find that post Pimento? Where is that?

But to answer your question, I have not mined in almost 2 years. It was just to take part in the experiment. It wasn't (yet) exactly profitable. Just last week the hashing power went up 20% (from 10 days prior).
A funny statistic, showing the power of the worlds most powerful network (hashing wise) - The mining difficulty when I quit was just over 1 Billion, now it is at over 100 Billion!
And - Bitcoin's Computing Network is More Powerful than 525 Googles and 10,000 Banks! [www.zerohedge.com] (But it just hashes).
Something interesting, Bitcoin miners just came out that are 14 nanometers. Intel is still struggling to get 14 nanometers to work. [www.fool.com]

silverhound Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bitcoin Foundation Struggles To Sustain Its
> Existence - CCN: Financial Bitcoin &
> Cryptocurrency News
>
> [www.cryptocoinsnews.com]
> -struggles-sustain-existence/

Hi Silverhound,

As far as the Bitcoin Foundation goes, we all have been hoping it goes out of existence! There is no central entity in control of Bitcoin and they came about to try to give a face to Bitcoin. Bitcoin (uppercase) is a decentralized blockchain who's first application is a money named bitcoin (lowercase).
[bitcoinfoundation.org]

dale68 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's totally dependant on the power grid,What if
> the grid goes down for an extended time period,
> what is one going to use for currency to survive..
> Our power grid is a mess(yes shut a few more coal
> plants- that aught to do it)An emf pulsewould also
> put it down(either natural or man made) I don't
> think it'll pass that test'

Hey dale68,

It is totally dependent on the powergrid but ALL OVER THE WORLD. It the power grid went down in America, it would lower Bitcoin's hash rate. But, the miners and network would chug on all over the world.Then when the grid came back up, the American miners would have to catch up with the blockchain, no big deal (technically).
Now, if the powergrids went down all over the world, we have much bigger worries than Bitcoin. [www.coindesk.com]

I fully understand this is an experiment, so don't misunderstand my perspective on this.

Best,
Albert

"I can't find that post Pimento? Where is that?"
Immediately before your post on Friday? That's why I looked at the thread, I thought you'd finally replied after 13 months. Only to be disappointed.

Back to what you said in that Jan 1st post: I'm not surprised you don't mine, your equipment must be too outdated / power-hungry. But the current Dollar price of 1 BTC presumably means it's still viable for someone to mine and make a profit.
But this is what bothers me about the price of BTC. I understand that engineered into the mining process is an ever-increasing level of difficulty, to take account of the (fairly predictable) increase in computational 'horsepower'. It's no good having the cost of mining 1 BTC as 1 US Dollar in 2010, if it's mineable for 10 cents in 2015. But if this 'difficulty-scaling' was done correctly, then surely the early miners (2009-2011) should also have found it hard and expensive to do so, and the BTC price should have been in the 100's of Dollars back then, too? Yet this clearly seems to not be the case. Prices below 1 Dollar; selling 2 pizzas for 10000 BTC; mining using a regular laptop PC, etc. The fact that someone actually owned 10000 BTC in the first place tells me something is wrong, it would take a huge effort today to 'mine' that.
I can see why some detractors of BTC liken it to 'Pyramid Schemes', where those in first make the money.
Shouldn't the fact that so many of the earliest mined coins effectively cost sub-dollar amounts, dilute the value of the presently mined ones?
Trivial example: 1 million BTC mined at 1 dollar, 1 million at 400 dollars. Total BTC= 2 million, costing 200.5 dollars on average.

It's this extreme difficulty in pegging a value to 1 BTC that makes me suspicious of any predictions, be they 10000 Dollars or 10 Dollars, they both seem equally plausible. And though the price has somewhat 'stabilised' over the past year, that doesn't really support those who say it's 'found its true value'. It could just be a plateau on the way to 10000 dollars, or over-optimistic support, artificially keeping it up, until one day this fails, and it falls to 30 dollars.

The volatility is extreme and not a good thing for business.

Jan 2016: $422/bcoin
Jan 2015: $252/bcoin
Jan 2014: $818/bcoin
Jan 2013: $15/bcoin

Jan2012: $3/bcoin
Jan2011: $0.80/bcoin
Jan2010: less than $0.01/bcoin

Reading more about the ease of mining in the early days, it seems a decent desktop PC (dual / quad-core, typical 2010 machine) could mine a 'block' of 50 BTC in one or two days.

Pimento Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "I can't find that post Pimento? Where is that?"
> Immediately before your post on Friday? That's why
> I looked at the thread, I thought you'd finally
> replied after 13 months. Only to be disappointed.
>
> Back to what you said in that Jan 1st post: I'm
> not surprised you don't mine, your equipment must
> be too outdated / power-hungry. But the current
> Dollar price of 1 BTC presumably means it's still
> viable for someone to mine and make a profit.
> But this is what bothers me about the price of
> BTC. I understand that engineered into the mining
> process is an ever-increasing level of difficulty,
> to take account of the (fairly predictable)
> increase in computational 'horsepower'. It's no
> good having the cost of mining 1 BTC as 1 US
> Dollar in 2010, if it's mineable for 10 cents in
> 2015. But if this 'difficulty-scaling' was done
> correctly, then surely the early miners
> (2009-2011) should also have found it hard and
> expensive to do so, and the BTC price should have
> been in the 100's of Dollars back then, too? Yet
> this clearly seems to not be the case. Prices
> below 1 Dollar; selling 2 pizzas for 10000 BTC;
> mining using a regular laptop PC, etc. The fact
> that someone actually owned 10000 BTC in the first
> place tells me something is wrong, it would take a
> huge effort today to 'mine' that.
> I can see why some detractors of BTC liken it to
> 'Pyramid Schemes', where those in first make the
> money.
> Shouldn't the fact that so many of the earliest
> mined coins effectively cost sub-dollar amounts,
> dilute the value of the presently mined ones?
> Trivial example: 1 million BTC mined at 1 dollar,
> 1 million at 400 dollars. Total BTC= 2 million,
> costing 200.5 dollars on average.
>
> It's this extreme difficulty in pegging a value to
> 1 BTC that makes me suspicious of any predictions,
> be they 10000 Dollars or 10 Dollars, they both
> seem equally plausible. And though the price has
> somewhat 'stabilised' over the past year, that
> doesn't really support those who say it's 'found
> its true value'. It could just be a plateau on the
> way to 10000 dollars, or over-optimistic support,
> artificially keeping it up, until one day this
> fails, and it falls to 30 dollars.

I'll address what you said in order, as best as I can. Understand it is just my perspective.
The early miners are still in use, but only where power is free or near free, which is actually in a lot of places. As new miners come out, old ones are sold off to where power is cheaper/free. Once my Power Supply went bad I calculate it would have been more efficient to just use the 100 bucks a new one would cost to buy that much in BTC (so I did), ehehe.

Bitcoin does not have built in an ever increasing level of difficulty. It is adjusted every 10 days based on where the networks hashing power is going. So if miners were to go off the network, the difficulty would actually go down. When you see the difficulty going up so exponentially, it means that A - There are more miners mining and/or B - The hashing power of the new miners are much much much faster. I think it is a combination of the two. When BTC started it was 1.

It was expensive for the early miners, depending on how much they mined. I heard stories of miners selling thousands of coins to pay their bill. But it was always relative and still is. It is important to say this - Mining WAS NOT DESIGNED to be greatly profitable. It was designed to be BARELY profitable. And that is how things are going. And if you are a chip designer and come out with a much better chip (and they do every so often), you are "rewarded" by that innovation. Hence the 14nm chips before Intel.

When those 2 pizzas were sold at 10,000 BTC, BTC at that time was an unknown. BTC was not the first digital currency. Many tried and failed, which is why me and many others missed the early boat. But Satoshi, whoever he/they were, had a incredibly good grasp on Cryptography, Mathematics and Economics. They weren't the best programmers you can tell from the code. I think it was more than one person tbh. So, the success of BTC was a shock to the world to be quite honest. They said the Byzantine Generals problem was unsolvable, some of the brightest minds in the world said so, and this anonymous guy/girl/group, solved it out of no where. [www.reddit.com] Some very bright minds working on digital currencies paid BTC no mind early on as everyone said the problem could not be solved.

The fact that someone owned 10,000 BTC in the first place is not different than me and you and most people not being able to buy Facebook, Amazon, Google, etc. pre-IPO. Now you have a chance to take a chance on those in a sense. It is still the very early days.
You can argue - The social security system, stocks, etc. are all pyramid schemes. They only go up as money comes in. You can also argue that they are, in part, Ponzi schemes.

I'm not saying Bitcoin is the answer, far from it. If we have money as we know it now, even anything like Bitcoin, in 100 years, we will have failed and be slaves. Star Trek never mentioned money and I think they got it right. ;-)
All I'm saying, really, is that it is putting pressure on a corrupt financial system and re-distributes wealth better than existing currencies. Many many of the early adopters are using their created money (BTC) to further the cause. Many liberterians. I'm not saying that is good,
but there is a different crowd of people with this money.

As far as dillution, as the price goes up, coins will be sold. Ideally, wealth will be spread via appreciation. Bitcoin is already gaining mass traction in 3rd world countries. As it's price goes up, we actually have wealth creation.

Bitcoins market cap is 5 billion or so. It is no where near it's use case scenario. You do the math. It it takes over even 5% of the store of value that gold and silver currently have (which are greatly udervalued due to the banks naked short selling of the paper market), where will it be?
If 1% of wealth starts moving in? It already is gaining traction as a CHEAP remittance tool, to be used on the back end. Meaning, people won't know they are sending Bitcoin. Bitcoin's market cap MUST REACH 100's of billion of dollars, and then Trillions. If it doesn't, you won't be able to move large amounts of money with it.
And 1 billion just came in this year. Just keep an eye on her.

There are only 15 million or so BTC's right now. And then 21 million by 2140, and then no more. So basically, we are for all intents and purposes, maxed out in the near term grand scheme. The emission curve is flattening.
The price is not going to 30 bucks unless there is a catastrophe. The use cases are there and rising. I touched on 20% of them or so.

Go-Rebels - You are doing a disservice by just picking numbers. You need to look at the chart to get a better understanding of where it is going. You know I traded stocks professionally for years and it jumps out at me. Does it jump out at you? [blockchain.info] This is what is called an S-Curve, Google, Amazon, Facebook ALL EXPERIENCED THIS. Except during the "volatile" time, it wasn't available to us. But they rose from pennies, violently upwards (and down) and up and THEN we had a chance at them.
edit - It is volatile but UPWARDS.

Pimento - Yes, early machines could mine A LOT. Many were lost, many were sold. And a few hundred people are probably sitting on a decent amount. But so many were distributed to some early lucky people and if they held... oh boy.
I've read as many as 20% were lost. And Satoshi has 1 million coins, which is a lot, considering there are 15 million right now. But he very well might have burned them forever, for obvious reasons. But time will tell.

Best to you all,
Albert



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2016 12:20PM by earthmansurfer.

Happy New Year everyone. Just a little update on Bitcoin.

It was once again the best performing currency last year: 2016. That makes it the best performing currency in 5 out of the last 6 years.
This year it started the year at $379 (US) and ended last night at 966 ish. That is up $587 or 165%. It looks poised to break $1000 and after that, a large correction or correction down is possible. Very psychological level.
Bitcoins "market cap" is now 15 Billion USD (an all time high as there are more BTC's now then at it's last high in 2013). It needs to get in the trillions to really be able to move LARGE amounts of money around though. (It is still just a baby in the world of finance.)
Most price forecasts start at $10,000 USD over the next 2 years (bottom prediction) with a top prediction too crazy to mention. But do the math, there are only 16 million Bitcoins right now and in 2140 it will stop at 21 million total BTC's.

I am again suggesting it as a way to protect your money.

I believe it will accelerate in its climb upwards due to a variety of reasons this year:
Chinese Capital controls (Chinese are by far the biggest buyers)
failing global currencies
Increased debt by most nations
Supple and Demand - Supply was cut in half a few months back due to the emmision rate halving. (Now it is 12.5 BTC's every 10 minutes, no longer 25. This happens every 4 years - a mathematically predictable release.)
Continued instability in our global situation.
etc. (Basically, plug in similar variables that effect gold/silver, etc.)

It does look like my main worry - BTC being made illegal - that ship has sailed. Still a risky "investment" if you don't understand technology.

That said, I think silver might go up quite a bit more than Bitcoin this year. So I'm very Bullish on silver as well. BUT, you can't easily move silver/gold and there are counterfeit concerns to consider.

Have a great year hunting guys,
Albert

How does one aquire Bit coin, buy it with REAL money? How much can l hide in my mattress?

Quote:"Supply and Demand - Supply was cut in half a few months back due to the emission rate halving ... This happens every 4 years - a mathematically predictable release."
If this is predictable, then it should have virtually NO effect on price, as it's 100% certain to happen. I would've thought an experienced stock trader like yourself would be familiar with this.....
Likewise "Continued instability in our global situation" is going to be 'in the price' already. If things get worse (unpredicted events, like terrorism, natural disasters etc), then sure, btc is highly likely to increase in cost, in US Dollars, and vice-versa for 'less global instability'.

Your thoughts on Chinese capital control affecting demand is interesting and quite relevant.

I think the flaw with this advice: "Still a risky "investment" if you don't understand technology." is that virtually no-one understands the technology, or has the devotion to research and learn what it's about.

It would be interesting to hear more of your thoughts on silver, Albert. It deserves a new thread, I think, the existing 'precious metal' threads are a bit old to revive, now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2017 10:12PM by Pimento.

I never have been able to wrap my mind around this concept.

Partly because I'm far from the brightest bulb on this forum. Maybe partly because I've never had the desire to make a serious effort to grasp it.

My gut instinct has always been avoid these tulip bulbs like the plague, but with a bit of a counterweight due to my respect for the intelligence of Albert and some others who see the viability of this.