TO: Dave Johnson, John Gardiner, Jorg, Carl

I knew someone would ask.... 'hacking' was meant to mean any kind of tinkering with the internals, such as reverse engineering, or changing components, or adjusting anything.
Specifically, I wanted to run my own cordless headphones with the machine, and the only option would be to buy a full set of XP cordless 'phones, and rip out the guts, put them in a box, with a socket for the new 'phones. An expensive process, unless I was able to obtain the XP 'phones cheap, eg. damaged. So I investigated the FM radio transmitter circuitry, to see how it operated, what freq's it used. Could I make a receiver tuned to the correct freq? Or could I used a 'standard' 433MHz receiver (433.92MHz) and change the transmit freq of one channel of the detector to this freq? Getting a custom-frequency crystal cut is not difficult if you can accept it in a standard crystal package (which is OK in this case), but it is, unsurprisingly, expensive. In the end, I didn't pursue this.

I also wanted to use rechargeable NiMH batteries, but taking out the packs to charge them is a pain. But there is an XP charger available that feeds its power into a spare pin on the coil connector. It's expensive, I suspected it was actually a simple power supply, but I needed to know what was in the detectors internal circuitry - was it simple, like a resistor, or maybe just a diode, plus fuse? or is there a constant current charging regulator on the circuit-board? The answer is "simple", and the mains adaptor has some basic current limiting in it, and home-brewing a charger would've been easy. But I never bothered, as the detector runs for a long time on a set of batteries, and taking them out to recharge them becomes less of an inconvenience as a result.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2014 09:06PM by Pimento.

Pimento, so you understand that the electronics experts have looked at most simple things at length and only want that which is obviously profitable. But people like you could find a nitch that sells and improves our hobby in the long run. I unfortunately do not have an understanding of electronics, so have to depend on people like you to improve the available detectors and their abilities and buy as they become available. The big companies rarely take chances on a new concept, they usually repeat the same detector profile over and over with small tweaks to the original settings over and over. Once a company becomes too large, originality disappears. Too many people squash original thinking. Keep working and maybe one day we will be buying the Pimento detector.

Pimento..... I commend you for 'attempting' to bring this thread back on topic. Especially from an archaeological stand-point....... I could never begin to express the order-of-magnitude of importance of 'said' campaign. Yes...... I am well aware of the difficulty of such quest; yet, if only to have just one Mfr take on this challange with utmost/highest priority.

Could a rather large high capacity battery make a difference on powering a super deep machine. I would gladly carry a 20 lb battery on my back if it would allow me to have the type of performance Tom mentions.

Power not the issue, and is not needed. The T2/F75 in Boost Mode will easily attain the depths Tom wants (or could be modified to do so) in air.
Besides, if more power was needed, Lithium-based batteries would be suitable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2014 01:39PM by Pimento.

Let's go one step further:

In July/Aug of 2009...... I was testing one of the proto F75 LTD's. This particular unit was capable of ascertaining (with constant repeatability/reliability) a clad dime to 12.0" in 'bp' mode..... in Florida inert dirt...... with fairly low atmospheric EMI conditions. Realizing this unit is probably the 'highest gain' unit on the open/available market.... even today......... and with a very tight elliptical DD electromagnetic footprint coil (of which is a EMI magnet)............... made me 'rethink' an engineering approach. If this 11" x 7" elliptical DD coil........ was made into a 11" x 7" non-DD coil....... EMI would be heavily mitigated and greater depth could possibly be ascertained. ALSO....... if the 13-Khz operating freq could be lowered to 7-Khz............. the unit would gain more freq-resonance-reactivity to higher conductors......... which is also to say......... it would be desensitized to tiny birdshot BB-sized targets....... including iron.

Where am I going with all of this? The single Freq F75LTD/SE is one of the top contenders as a base-platform for creating/launching a unit with about 2" greater depth on a dime. Any one,,,,,, a combination of....... or ALL of the following:
Opening up the tight EM footprint, lowering the operating freq, incorporating XP Deus/GMP mineralization handling approach, and multi-freq............ are just a few of the ways to 'mission accomplish'.

I like the TDI SL for reaching what others miss.

Brainstorming the future of that platform is a good investment for Whites.

Maybe stereo for the low and high tone and maybe a display with leds as the ATX with red and green leds to visualize both strength and high/low tone and a cpl pushpads to have the most used controls handy on the handgrip if using in wet environment and using controls to check targets often.

The TDI finds things no other regular detecor see, Not only deep. Surprising to a VLF user but a different way to find the missed targets.

A very small display indicating only 3 spots would do and 3 pushpads.

GB off/hi/low and Pdelay and GB setting from 1-10.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2014 09:20PM by OldandBold.

If you like the TDI for depth....... you should try a GPX-5000.

But......... to more directly answer your statement:

To have a Pulse Induction (PI) unit ascertain VLF fringe depth (or deeper) capabilities WITH ferrous/non-ferrous ID............... ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, we are (technologically) not there yet. Eric Foster, Bruce Candy (and Minelab Eng. staff), Carl M. , Dave Emery and a few other PI engineers will openly admit that we are not at the PI technology level that can ID targets...... especially deeper targets.

(((Hence; my VLF IB quest)))

IF...... we could take 2 (or more) snapshots of a PI signal (when the Xmitter is off)...... during the Rcv phase..... analyze the decay time-domain curve BETWEEN the snapshots.......................... conductivity could 'start' to be assessed. (There's a bit more to it...... but this is the catalyst/start/initiation). Different conductivity metals 'time-decay' (hysteresis time curve) at different rates.

The GPX 5K is not what i need for relic or deep coinshooting, the TDI is and the stereo Mixed mode on the V3I.
Even the Deus leaves stuff in the ground and so does the F 75 that the TDI see, It can see trough the small bits in the topsoil as the Explorer is known for.

It is a fabulous detector, one of the best balanced. Has an enormous coilselection and will find things as in KISS if you are not afraid to dig.
The sound has nuiances you will learn after using it extensively for a very long period. It is different and that is one thing i like better then anything " tweeked " and relabeled.

I mentioned a few ideas as to how to set up the TDI SL mark II and I want Whites to think about it, Some of us really love the TDI SL .

I suspect you have seen the TDI go as far as it is going to go. I hope I am wrong.

Absolutely not, it can be learned to some degree but not mastered , It is always something to learn.

And it is deep. And it is KISS.

A great tool, a great detector, and platform to build on.

Im using mine with the RNB battery btw, It is so smooth and powerful it is amazing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2014 06:40PM by OldandBold.

Bump. This topic is too important to fall off the front page. While I cannot add anything to the technical discussion in this thread, I can add this comment:

I would be first in line to buy the new deeper detector Tom outlined in this thread.

Duke

The TDI is not a trashy park machine unless you want to get sites closed from all the excessive digging....

I had a phone conversation with one of our forum members last night...... and he brought up something worth sharing. He had asked me: what I PERSONALLY would accept for this deeper seeking unit.

I would reduce the technical features to even less...... such as:
I would accept the unit as a 'monotone' unit (instead of 2-tone).
I would accept the unit as a 'all-metal' only unit; yet, still retaining a VDI display (or some form of ferrous/non-ferrous differentiation).


The interesting thing is........ most all of the forum members here on this web-site would also accept this type of a unit (monotone & all-metal mode with only a VDI). On nearly all of the other forums....... this might not be the case. (We are a more serious/dedicated bunch here).

But........ this would make the unit much more of a 'niche' unit; hence, my original quest!

Consumer electronics is the "market".
Metal detectors is a niche consumer electronics market.
Tom's first post is a niche metal detector product.
This last post is a niche-of-a-niche, making it a niche-cubed product.
Someone should resurrect Nautilus.

Is it necessary to design a super-plain mono-tone "niche-niche" detector in order to "ascertain a clad dime to real-world depths of 14.0"?

With all due respect , this thread has gone off the deep end .
It smacks of someone that has abandoned the long held tenet of speed and expertise in unmasking ability for the back hoe and sifting screen philosophy.

I doubt a niche detector of this kind will sell good enough to be an investment for the manufacturer - unless physical laws can be bent quite a bit.

Deep digging of the 10000,- $ coins left involves masking effects that can only be overcome with the digging tool.

You can find some more masked targets with a fast recovery detector with the correct nuiances in sound, you can find some deeper isolated targets with the deeper detectors.

But the best targets will still be left to dig unless you dig more and select less.

Pulse and allmetal is the way to go for me. The ability to chose freq and stereo mixed mode is the way to go.

If you want a niche detector as KISS as possible make it a stereo mixed mode detector with a simple disc operation to work paralell to the all metal mode just to kick out the shallow VDI s that can be trusted.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2014 05:15PM by OldandBold.

Carl = There certainly are a lot of metal detector Mfr's out there making detectors for this so-called 'niche' market!

Johnnyanglo = No! (((However, the intent is: dedicated 'focus' via K.I.S.S. ........ until fruition.)))

What should be an eye-opener (and validated proof) is........... and this is just one Mfr example: Minelab. Looking at only the SD-2000, SD-2100, SD-2200, GPX-3500, GPX-4000, GPX-4500, GPX-4800...... GPX-5000 series. These are $2,000.00 - $6,000.00 units. (((Then there's Nokta, OKM))). They are 'niche-squared' units. PI .... all-metal only. NOT good for schools, parks, homesites, churches, playgrounds etc......
What are the sales numbers of these units. Truth is...... there were many times that Minelab was badly back-ordered.

Difficult data to convey..... but here goes:
It is my true belief that we have created (self-generated/chosen) to 'believe' this metal detecting/treasure hunting hobby..... as a 'niche' market. So much so...... in-so-far as to 'completing' the mindset.... via 'self-fulfilling prophecy'. ((( ie: be careful what you wish for ))). It would take White's marketing staff expertize to possibly change this nearly irreversible/unforseen 'niche' mindset. (((20-years ago...... who would have believed that we could not live without a cellphone or computer))). Mindset!!!

as i said before, all detectorists end up hunting in one or two specific niches,.......beach hunter, relic hunter, jewelry, coins, etc: and many have more than one tool/machine to meet their specific type of hunting needs!

to any metal detector manufacturer,...........make a machine that is a "depth demon" keep it simple and if possible multi freq(beach hunters and relic hunters machine). give it great tone id and that would be enough!!!!!
go ahead,.......i dare you!!!!!!!!!!

chuck.

Cellphones, computers, tablets and GPS. What will the future give us ?

I hope all manufacturers will look at the ergonomics of detectors and keep away from cheaply build chinese looking plastics.

Who will be the first to build a detector with only the coil and a waterproof pod with tactile touchpads and use google glasses or similar for screen and sound.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/19/2014 06:45PM by OldandBold.

In my opinion, a sub-gram $5500 gold detector with advanced technology, makes some sense, when gold is $1200 an ounce and may go higher.

Compare that to a niche single-freq detector with two tones, adjustable iron tone break, and a plain meter - that can hit a dime at 14".

The niche detector would only make sense in a non-littered, non-mineral-salt, non-magnetite, non-ferrous-trash, open-field hunting environment where targets are sparse.

The reward will be targets ascertained a few inches deeper than current detectors. Specifically, recovered old coins and relics, with resale valued < $600, most likely < $75, with many of no worth, except to a hard-core collector. Assuming a detector company builds this detector, the price would have to balance against the likely payoff to the user. Can't sell the thing for $5,500, if all you get back is a few hundred dollars after many years of searching. Not unless there is an allure attached, such as the intoxicating charm that gold nuggets have; not so sure on an old silver dime or quarter has the star power to draw in detectorists.

So, I can imagine this niche machine being built with a price point around $650, with low sales volume (30 per year?), not enough to offset design and production costs.

Therefore, since the stripped down niche machine is a turn-off, and since it is unnecessary to remove all the extras to get the machine Tom envisions, we'll add back in:

Auto Ground Balance
User programmable tones
Interchangeable coils,
Two-freqs for beach use
VDI with full screen (Fe-Co type)
Great reactivity (separation)
And, perhaps, waterproofness

Now, we have a deep detector that handles multiple tasks on the beach, in the water, in the park and school yards, and in the open fields; and it get a dime at 14"+. Now the detector manufactures can charge around $1250 for their creation and sales will be justifiably higher, and a profit is turned.

It's a win-win for everybody. Yeah!

But it appears a preexisting, but tweaked, CTX, Deus, CZ, F75, GMP, or some Turkish, Russian, Bulgarian detector, etc. ... would be the most cost efficient way to get there.


Johnnyanglo

Johnnyanglo - Agree; yet the psychological impositions of initial 'baby steps' are (unsuspectingly) far reaching..... with easier culmination of 'product start'................................................. all the way to fruition.

Yes, I have anticipated a certain (higher) level of Design Engineer(s) resistance........ normal & nominal........... as to be expected. It is a 'fight-the-good-fight' for higher human achievement.

If I would have asked a D.E. (Design Engineer) 80 years ago...... I want a device that can 'see into the ground'. . . . I would have received 'impossible' and mega-resistance.

If I would have asked a D.E. 60 years ago...... I want a device that can differentiate between ferrous and non-ferrous in this (now invented) metal detector. . . . I would have received 'impossible' and mega-resistance.

If I would have asked a D.E. 40 years ago..... I want a device that can generate/give 'conductivity' of the full spectrum/span of the non-ferrous targets. . . . I would have received 'impossible' and mega-resistance.

If I would have asked a D.E. 20 years ago..... I want a device that can tell a zinc penny from a copper penny. . . . I would have received 'impossible' and mega-resistance.

Today........... I am asking for 2 more inches.

I know this is a little off the subject but Lockheed marten just announced a break through in nuclear fusion reactors. Now if that can be done Tom I'm sure engeniers can make a deeper metal detector.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2014 10:32PM by Digger70pa.

If I had two more inches the wife would leave me-------------------------------------------I'd be out digging coins all day long

shoveler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If I had two more inches the wife would leave
> me-------------------------------------------I'd
> be out digging coins all day long


You made me spit my tea out

"I am asking for 2 more inches"

A decade old Nexus with disc set to exclude a large pliers (odd), sens at half, with a factory 9" coil has been tested in the air to 15" on a 1910 US dime. Perhaps the newer Nexus line has equal or better real-world results, don't know. Arguably, the Blisstool V5 also with a dime buried in the ground, slight disc, gets 14-15".

It appears at least some foreign companies are pushing the depth parameters past 12" on a dime ... it just isn't the apparently timid, lifeless, play-it-safe US companies that you'd expect to be in the lead.

I'd hazard that a sparky detector that is also a depth-monster would cause average Joe detectorist to go nuts (with repeated calls to customer service asking how to make it run silently).

It is safer (on customer service) and cheaper (to machine build rather than hand build coils) and let average Joe operate a quiet detector with middle-of-the-road performance (but add GPS or a clock to project the image of improvement). If the customer doesn't care why should anyone else care?

There use to be a quest for excellence in the US, just because of the desire to do it, just to push the limits ... now we have design engineers that have become comfortably numb, it's just a paycheck I suppose. Do these companies really want foreign engineers to out-engineer them? Hmmmm.

Johnyanglo

Easy Johny, you're talking about some respected people here! Seriously, if you ever worked in a manufacturing organization you know that what makes it out the door as a product is often light years from what the engineers could do if they had different marching orders from Marketing, Finance and Executive Managenpment.

The Europeans also ar free from one terrible comstraint - namely that the US coinage hasn't seriously changed from a comductivity point of view since the late 1800’s. "Coin Shooters" want to know it's a nickle before they dig it since the nickle itself is now worth almost nothing! The fun is as much in the correct ID as in the recovered coin.

In Europe the coinage changes ecery decade or so and accurate ID is not considered bery important, therefore ferrous/nonferrous Id becanpme more important.

Just my thoughts.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

Biting my tongue!!!

A decade old Nexus with disc set to exclude a large pliers (odd), sens at half, with a factory 9" coil has been tested in the air to 15" on a 1910 US dime. Perhaps the newer Nexus line has equal or better real-world results, don't know. Arguably, the Blisstool V5 also with a dime buried in the ground, slight disc, gets 14-15".

I would need to be there & witness this, before I would believe it !!