For you guys that own PI machines

Generally speaking and I realize there's a ton of variables, but what's the greatest depth you can pull say a penny/dime in dirt (not sand)? Have you "hunted out" a site with a VLF returned and pulled additonal coins with a PI below the traditional 11" range that most deep VLF's begin to peter out at? This would be in moderate soil and not highly mineralized.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2014 12:37AM by deadlift.

Most people misunderstand ground balancing PI (GBPI)detectors. It is not about the absolute depth they deliver but about the depth they deliver compared to a VLF in extremely mineralized ground. Most places I hunt the best VLF detectors target id begins to break down around 5-6". Deeper than that stuff identifies as ferrous. The only solution is go to all metal VLF or better yet GBPI.

A realistic scenario is the VLF hitting the dime at 6" and the GBPI at 10".

Thanks. So is there is minmal advantage to a PI over a hot vlf in moderate dirt? Im sure not all PI's like VLF's arent equal...Ive been hearing the gpx4800/5000's are pulling some insanely deep items bad dirt or not, and yet offer a keen user the ability to differintiate ferrous or non.

GPX 5000 is my main unit but I have lots of time on the TDI and ATX also plus older Minelab models. You are talking to one of the biggest PI fans in the world, but I hate to oversell it. People hear all the stuff you are referring to but then for anything but prospecting few people actually stick with it. You have to have a very high tolerance for digging lots of deep holes for trash as well as a maddening number of tiny ferrous targets that sound good. Since I am chasing nuggets I dig hundreds of nails and bullets for every nugget. There are tricks you can use to move the odds in your favor but you will dig tins of junk. It really only is a viable method for relatively clean areas or when chasing very high value targets that are worth digging a ton of junk for.

Hopefully Daniel chimes in. He is the resident GPX relic digger.

The short answer in my opinion for most people is no, there is not much advantage to using a PI in moderate ground or if there is a huge amount of junk. I use PI detectors almost exclusively for nugget detecting and beach/water jewelry detecting. But tomorrow I am heading for a ghost town, and my truck has a CTX 3030, DEUS, Gold Bug Pro, and Nokta FORS Gold loaded for testing and comparison. Wish my F75 was here but did not arrive today as hoped. Bottom line - no PI for this gig. Just too much junk.

I feel the pulse machines are the best things out there for depth. They can handle any ground condition and still get the same performance. A VLF will only be at its fullest capability in air or soil with little to zero minerals.

The problem is...at some sites, depth may not be what you need the most of.

A pulse machine can only tell you whether a target is low conductive or high conductive. This they do by giving a high tone or low tone. On the TDI, it was opposite of what you would think it would be. High conductive targets would give a low tone....low conductive targets would give a high tone. This was also true to the GPX...but on the GPX, you had an option in the menu to invert this. The neat thing about the TDI was that you have a toggle switch that has 3 positions. You could move it to the middle position, and hear both high and low conductive targets...essentially, it was an all metal mode where you heard everything. Or you could put it in either LOW or HIGH mode...and hear only the low or high conductive targets. What this means to the coin hunter....is that you could put it in HIGH conductive mode, and the only signals you would hear would be from high conductive targets. You would miss nickels, small gold jewelry, and gold coins...but you'd get silver and copper coins, and large gold rings. You wouldn't hear signals from the foil, pull tabs, etc. BUT you would still dig your share of junk....it would be just like taking a VLF machine and cranking the discrimination up to past pull tab...and digging everything that beeps. I probably made that sound better than it actually is...because on the TDI, nails still wrap around to the high conductive range, and unless they are laying perfectly flat in the ground where they give a double beep...you will dig a lot of them.

The GPX on the other hand...has a crude form of iron only discrimination, in which you could call it "blanking" out on iron. This is also found on the Garrett ATX. These are steps in the right direction for pulse machines. You'll uncover some good targets in the mix that were beyond what you could reach with a VLF. But at the same time, you also uncover a new layer of junk. After you dig a few screwcaps at 10+ inches deep in a park, without a shovel, you will start to see how valuable target ID and cherry picking actually is. As a relic hunter in the woods or field, we can just dig a nice deep hole with little effort by using a shovel, and if it's junk, we haven't used up a lot of effort in retrieving the target. Folks that are hunting well manicured lawns or parks...a shovel better not be part of your digging equipment arsenal. And digging nice little plugs with a Lesche hand digger gets tricky when you are digging holes down past the end of the handle of the tool

Very well written (and informative) response Daniel.----Thank you

Good stuff gents. Im very intrigued. I have a few sites that I dig minnie balls down to 14-15" w/my VLF's. Just whispers or theshold breaks that become diggable after raking away some topsoil. Even the buttons are really deep. I cant help but wonder what Im missing. Other than shotgun caps and the like most items pertain to the camps that were there. Can you determine relative depth of items before digging?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2014 04:41AM by deadlift.

hey deadlift,I have a. nice TDI with 2 coils Ill let go cheap...I dont relic hunt with a pi...pm me if interested

It's worth trying one out if you can find one for a good price. I wouldn't recommend buying a brand new one just to give one a run UNLESS it was a GPX and you knew you were gonna stick with it. There are plenty of used machines out there. Be very careful when looking at the used GPX models though...as you probably saw on the forum, the market is saturated with fakes. Especially the GPX 4500. The TDI is a great machine but from what I understand, the new Garrett is a step above it...and the GPX models are on a whole other platform in depth. The TDI is especially sensitive to low conductive targets. More so than the high conductors. We called them the "button magnets" because at the big hunts, everybody that was using the TDI machines had more buttons and small brass than they had anything else. In fact, a lot of guys would put the machines in low conductive mode only and only use it that way. It was too hard for them to distinguish the nails from the bullets/plates, etc so they spent a lot of wasted time digging nails. In the low conductive mode, they didn't dig nails, but they also didn't dig bullets and would have walked over any plates and not dug them...but there were days that some guys found 30 buttons or more. A lot of the thicker and heavier buttons were missed by doing that too. I dug a large navy button that gave a low tone...I thought it would be a bullet and out popped that button.

They do have a sense of modulation...meaning the deeper the object, the weaker the signal. Some times this throws you off though, especially if you have only ran VLF machines. You get it in your head about how deep something should be by the sound. Then when you hear that sound on a pulse machine, you might think it is shallow...and end up with a 10 inch+ target.

I don't think you are going to hit the 15 inch mark with a TDI on bullets though. I dug a lot of bullets with mine and I personally feel that 12-13 inches is about the cut off for a TDI on a minie ball size object with the stock coil. You'll dig brass that deep though...as noted before, they are especially sensitive to the low conductor targets. To get deeper with the TDI, I had to go to a larger after market coil...and that still left me hitting just the 14 inch mark. With the GPX, that depth is not a problem at all. In fact, I would say 15 inch bullets are pretty easy to get on the GPX and the stock 11 inch coil. That would probably actually land you into the 18 inch mark without much tweaking of settings. The problem is...how many times do you wanna dig beyond 15 inches for a bullet? We dug a lot of relics that were just past the VLF ranges in the bad dirt. In bad dirt....that cut off might just be 4 inches....maybe 10 inches in all metal with a VERY keen ear. Yet with a pulse machine, you could go right in there and nab those pretty easy. In fact, the first hunts where only a handful of people had the GPX detectors...they would literally fill a large display case of relics PER DAY of the 3 day hunt. Versus the other people that might fill half of ONE for all 3 days. Now that half the field has GPX machines, it is getting harder. Some of the guys are actually using 18 inch coils on the GPX now on these hunts. Why on God's green earth they would lug that thing around is beyond me...15-18 inches is ENOUGH for me to dig for a bullet. I don't need to go any deeper.

There was one guy I remember that had one of the first Minelab pulse machines at a DIV. It was just the GP model....and I remember him cherry picking plates out of HUTS...that were 2 to 2 1/2 feet in the ground. He didn't care about digging buttons or bullets...he was after plates. He dug 5 in one day at one of the hunts....he dug one that he had to lay flat on the ground and the hole was up to his arm pit...and pulled a US box plate out of the hole. That's what got me to get a GPX right there. LOL. I think by the next DIV I went to, I had one of my own. Now everybody either has a GPX, ATX, or TDI.

Recently started using my ATX at an 1850 settlement, Farm land dirt get's turned over every year always stuff brought to the surface.


Have several copper pennies and a nickel buried at this same site, For testing purposes. One penny at 8" inches, 9", 10", and 12" inches the nickel at 12". The ground is mineralized, have tried several detectors with these buried coins and only three will detect all of them. The v5 Blisstool, ATX and AT Gold in all metal. A few other detectors come close but these are the 3 that hits all buried coins. I know many of you may be laughing the AT-Gold detects these coins, trust me the AT-Gold has it's strength in all-metal mode otherwise it's a plain VLF in disc mode.

The ATX is not effective by mineralization, of the three it's the best of the bunch. The Blisstool v5 and AT-Gold do slightly suffer some masking but overall do well, As long as the AT-Gold is in all-metal it's extremely deep. Flip the AT-Gold to disc mode then masking from mineralization greatly reduces depth, That's key got to hunt in all-metal to get depth and only a handful of detectors can do this.

Because of mineralization, higher conductive signals ID lower which is great for the ATX because weaker/deeper high conductive signals sound like a deep low conductive signal. Didn't realize this until deep higher conductive targets were surfacing and they were giving a low conductive (high/low) signal but most of the time it's a weak high tone instead of the high/low. My ratio of good conductive (non-ferrous) vs. iron (ferrous) is about 7-8 good targets out of 10 digs with the remainder 2-3 pieces of iron. That's a great ratio with a PI, This is out in open ground away from allot of iron which does enhance the opportunity to dig less iron.

Masking from mineralization will even mask near surface finds from the best VLF, A good PI like a ATX will get those tiny targets masked by mineralization.

Paul (Ca)

Old California Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Recently started using my ATX at an 1850
> settlement, Farm land dirt get's turned over
> every year always stuff brought to the surface.
>
>
> Have several copper pennies and a nickel buried at
> this same site, For testing purposes. One penny
> at 8" inches, 9", 10", and 12" inches the nickel
> at 12". The ground is mineralized, have tried
> several detectors with these buried coins and only
> three will detect all of them. The v5 Blisstool,
> ATX and AT Gold in all metal. A few other
> detectors come close but these are the 3 that hits
> all buried coins. I know many of you may be
> laughing the AT-Gold detects these coins, trust
> me the AT-Gold has it's strength in all-metal mode
> otherwise it's a plain VLF in disc mode.
>
> The ATX is not effective by mineralization, of the
> three it's the best of the bunch. The Blisstool v5
> and AT-Gold do slightly suffer some masking but
> overall do well, As long as the AT-Gold is in
> all-metal it's extremely deep. Flip the AT-Gold to
> disc mode then masking from mineralization greatly
> reduces depth, That's key got to hunt in
> all-metal to get depth and only a handful of
> detectors can do this.
>
> Because of mineralization, higher conductive
> signals ID lower which is great for the ATX
> because weaker/deeper high conductive signals
> sound like a deep low conductive signal. Didn't
> realize this until deep higher conductive targets
> were surfacing and they were giving a low
> conductive (high/low) signal but most of the time
> it's a weak high tone instead of the high/low. My
> ratio of good conductive (non-ferrous) vs. iron
> (ferrous) is about 7-8 good targets out of 10 digs
> with the remainder 2-3 pieces of iron. That's a
> great ratio with a PI, This is out in open ground
> away from allot of iron which does enhance the
> opportunity to dig less iron.
>
> Masking from mineralization will even mask near
> surface finds from the best VLF, A good PI like a
> ATX will get those tiny targets masked by
> mineralization.
>
> Paul (Ca)


That's VERY interesting Paul.-----Could I ask---what other detectors did you test on those buried coins that came close to the three detectors you mentioned?----Also, did you try the G2/GB Pro in all metal & if so, what was the results on them?------The reason I ask---you must have similar ground to ours up here in OR (gold country).-----I didn't realize the AT Gold would do that good in a.m.-----you got me thinking!----Thanks-----------Del

Hi Del,

Don't own a G2/GB Pro, But if it could get this depth in all-metal don't think stock elliptical has enough mass to punch down that deep.

Some of the machine used on these buried coins were the Explorer SE, Deus, XP-GoldMaxx Power, Nokta ForsGold. These are top end detectors and in right conditions do extremely well. Mineralization greatly reduces depth, And masked the tiniest of finds even near the surface. It takes a true all-metal detector to get depth, And of course having useable ID is a plus.

The Deus Prospecting mode fell a little short with both visual ID and depth, It was ok but hands down the AT-Gold all-metal feature was better for these type of conditions. The Explorer SE, Great machine but for these type of conditions masking took it's toll lost allot of depth and sensitivity to the smaller finds.

Nokta ForsGold is a great relic machine, And has it's place but because it lacks the true all-metal feature it too suffers masking from mineralization and won't get the depth needed from disc mode.

Blisstool v5, One of my top machines now and it does detect deep. But it too suffers from mineralization masking and sensitivity is reduced on the tinniest of finds in my area but wouldn't hesitate for a moment from using it to get the deeper signals.

AT-Gold, Just like the rest in disc mode it's a decent machine but mineralization kicks it down a few notches. But in all-metal get a shovel you'll need it. Plus, Because all-metal feature has an edge in mineralization it's getting the tiniest of finds normally would be masked in disc mode.

ATX, Can't say enough on this PI it's a killer with both depth and sensitivity to the tiniest of finds such as fragments from pistol/musket balls all VLF machines are missing.

Take care Del, And agree we must have similar ground being we're both on the West Coast.

Paul (Ca)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2014 04:18PM by Old California.

Thanks Paul----A couple of more questions that I forgot to ask--then I'll leave you alone. (grin)-----What coil were you using on the AT Gold when you did these tests?----Also, did it give much of a (favorable) TID indication in a.m. on these coins when these tests were done?-----It sounds like a detector that I could get some good use out of for my hunting challenges.---------Del

A pleasure Del,

The coil on the AT-Gold was the 8.5" X 11" coil, Maybe the perfect size for this site due to the slightly mineralization. Considering on getting a NEL coil for that extra punch, Maybe the Tornado 12" X13" but due to mineralize masking going bigger may have opposite results but feel the all-metal mode will allow the AT-Gold use of a larger coil in this particular soil. Could be wrong and only way of knowing is to experiment, but for now the 8.5"X11" coil is the perfect fit.

The AT-Gold had favorable ID on these deeper weaker signals, Useable ID in the positive area as long as ID was above iron range even bouncing a flicker above I went for the signal. Sure, Got fooled some with broken pieces of iron or deep larger iron pieces but end result was getting finds missed in disc mode.

True all-metal is our secret for depth, Otherwise we're missing deeper weaker masked signals.

Take care Del,
Paul (Ca)

Thanks again Paul.----I learned something today!-----Also, sounds like if a person was going to acquire that detector, you would want to get the large Garrett coil to go with the supplied 5 X 8 (for much added versatility).--------Del

Hi Paul,

Why do you say the FORS Gold has no all metal mode? General Mode is all metal.

Hello Steve,

The ForsGold does have an all-metal mode but not a true all-metal mode, Good machine though.

Paul

Hows that Paul? Cant prospect without all metal. Cant figure out what you mean.

Old California Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hello Steve,
>
> The ForsGold does have an all-metal mode but not a
> true all-metal mode, Good machine though.
>
> Paul


Hi there...Nokta Detectors here. What makes the all-metal mode of FORS Gold or CoRe not a true all metal mode? We are trying to understand what you mean because we want to provide the accurate information as the manufacturer of the product. Thanks in advance.

Not sure what you mean either. I'm currently testing the Fors CoRe and the GEN mode on it is a threshold based all metal mode...and a very deep one at that. Maybe he means that it's not a non motion all metal mode? Not sure.

Fors has true all metal threshold nas we d single channel mode..

as true all metal as any detector made...

you may be thinking of another mode Paul..

by the Way Daniel the CoRe HAS A SUPER Smooth DEEP all metal mode..

as smooth and deep as any I've found...

Keith

Hello gang and very good to see you here on the forum NoktaDetectors,

Sorry for the confusion with the all-metal feature, What I mean is the ForsGold does not have an adjustable iron grunt discrimination feature in all metal. For me, This ferrous audio discrimination feature helps eliminate constant viewing of the screen when surface to shallow ferrous targets occur. That's what I was meaning, The Deus doesn't have this ferrous audio discrimination feature either and hoping a future upgrade is in the works for this neat feature.

The ForsGold in all-metal is deep, And having a threshold is a must have feature and that it does have. Guess for me the adjustable iron audio (grunt) feature on the AT-Gold is a plus for my type of hunting.

Thanks gang and Happy thanksgiving,
Paul (Ca)

Keith Southern Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fors has true all metal threshold nas we d single
> channel mode..
>
> as true all metal as any detector made...
>
> you may be thinking of another mode Paul..
>
> by the Way Daniel the CoRe HAS A SUPER Smooth DEEP
> all metal mode..
>
> as smooth and deep as any I've found...
>
> Keith


Keith

The Fors CoRe has a "true" (non motion all metal static mode) like the G2/GB and F19's?

or just an "all metal/disc mode" like a million others these days that just call it an all metal mode?

I have to agree with all of what Steve H and Daniel Tn say about pulse machines. I have run both the TDI and the ATX. I also hunt the Digging in VA relic hunts so I am well familiar with relic hunting in the red (highly mineralized) dirt of Culpeper. To make matters worse. Many of the suites we hunt at DIVs are dug in winter camps where the Soldiers built small above ground cabins using thousands of nails. It is very tough hunting where you almost have to dig every signal. There are some ways to help identify those pesky nails from the bullets but nothing that is truly consistent.................In short, you dig as many targets as you have patience and endurance for and find a few relics along the way. The pulse machines, particularly the GP/GPX series are excellent at cherry picking the lead as long as those bullets are not lying in a bed of nails. Trust me, the pulse machines are leaving plenty of good targets in the ground that can't be heard with the iron masking.

stumpr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have to agree with all of what Steve H and
> Daniel Tn say about pulse machines. I have run
> both the TDI and the ATX. I also hunt the Digging
> in VA relic hunts so I am well familiar with relic
> hunting in the red (highly mineralized) dirt of
> Culpeper. To make matters worse. Many of the
> suites we hunt at DIVs are dug in winter camps
> where the Soldiers built small above ground cabins
> using thousands of nails. It is very tough hunting
> where you almost have to dig every signal. There
> are some ways to help identify those pesky nails
> from the bullets but nothing that is truly
> consistent.................In short, you dig as
> many targets as you have patience and endurance
> for and find a few relics along the way. The pulse
> machines, particularly the GP/GPX series are
> excellent at cherry picking the lead as long as
> those bullets are not lying in a bed of nails.
> Trust me, the pulse machines are leaving plenty of
> good targets in the ground that can't be heard
> with the iron masking.

Which is why at the end of the day if the site warrants it you just have to dig everything. No doubt about one thing though. If you use a good VLF and dig every single target until nothing goes beep, then fire up a good PI, it will be as if the ground was never detected so many new targets will appear.

Yes, yes, and yes, the Nokta has a true threshold based all metal mode just like a G2 or F75 or many other good prospecting VLF detectors. I would not have given it a second look if it had not.

syumpr,

Which of the two, the TDI or ATX do you prefer and could please tell us why?

Thank you,

El

Love my ATX except for the weight. I have a like new TDI with remaining warranty for sale if anyone interested [www.detectorprospector.com]

The best thing about the TDI for relic hunters is the ability to manipulate the ground balance and pulse delay directly to get unique discrimination abilities not possible with the GPX or ATX. Beware the TDI "hole" however that follows the ground balance around and degrades depth on any items falling at or near the ground balance point. The GPX has similar holes but they are not as easily seen and manipulated as that on the TDI.

Has anybody gave a Minelab Eureka Gold a spin for relic hunting? Just wondering how it would stack up in the mix. The only thing that has kept me from getting one to try is that it doesn't seem to have many coils available for it. Most seem to be smaller elliptical coils.

Elbert,

I prefer the ATX over the TDI. In the Culpeper red dirt, the ATX runs smoother and seems to punch deeper into the mineralized ground. The iron check functionality although limited to objects 5"- 6", is a help in determining whether to dig a target or not. To be fair to the TDI, I never used the ground balance and pulse delay to enhance the TDIs limited discrimination capabilities that Steve refers to in his post. I do feel that the TDI is a better machine for finding buttons than the ATX. The signal on the TDI is just so much more enhanced on the brass than the ATX. Obviously the weight of the ATX can be an issue but a good detecting sling can make the weight almost unnoticeable. The fact the ATX is water proof to 10' is a big plus as I also beach hunt with the machine.

Yes, the TDI can have a " hole " where targets of certain conductivities and relative size will have low sensitivity. You need to be aware of the benefits and downfall of your adjustments. If you do you can find things no one else will dig.

For relic and coinhunting in dirt that allows free movement of the GB control you can " select " wanted targets and " sort out " unwanted targets.

It is good to be aware of the GB function together with PD and HiLo switch and how they interact for optimum performance on your most desired target.