How widely were gold coins dispersed in the US

Did i miss it or could the percentage of the OTHER metal have an affect on the detectors number? Also, when combined do these metals settle on the surface of concentrate on the surface? This mix and ware of coins would surely have some affect.

Dew

Would a hollow metal ball ID the same as a solid one of the same metal? I think it would be nearly the same.

Dew ..... You bet. You are referring to 'alloy'. This plays a huge role in ID/conductivity of the metal. Also..... never assume that lower conductive items can be detected to lesser depths. For example; higher freq units will detect a (low conductor) nickel to deeper depths than a lower freq detector. Metallurgically, the covalent bond between alloyed metals is NOT linear....per expectation. You would think that alloying (lower conductive) gold ... with (higher conductive) copper.... would raise the overall conductive 'average' of the metal item to a level that is 'in-between' the two conductive properties of the two metals. Not true. This alloy will take a conductive value that is lower than the lowest conductor (that being the gold). Also.... to answer your question...... when you alloy a metal with another metal...... it is NOT just on the 'surface' of the metal; rather, it is plumb/throughout the entire mix. U.S. silver coins are 90% silver and (alloyed) 10% copper. If you take a sample of the coin metal anywhere on/in the coin...... your composition will always be 90% silver and 10% copper. If the coin is worn completely flat..... it is still 90% silver and 10% copper.

Hobo....... Yes, the ID would be 'nearly' the same. . . . . . but.......... the solid ball would be slightly higher in conductivity because the overall mass of the solid ball would 'conduct' more current/amperage.

If you have a standard config'd F75 LTD/SE with stock 11" coil.......... (((or any detector....for that matter)))....... and it ID's a silver Half Dime (composition: 90% silver) as '62'........ and a silver dollar (composition: 90% silver) as '92'.....................then........................... let's pose this question:

If you install the little 5" coil on the detector..................... then................ (in size/ratio to the tiny coil)..... a silver Half-Dime should look huge to this tiny coil. In fact....... ratio-wise........ the Half-Dime (to this small coil)..... should look like a large silver dollar. Now........... an actual silver dollar should look like a man-hole cover to this tiny coil. Soooooooooooo......... "WHY" (with tiny coil installed) doesn't the silver Half-Dime ID as a '92'? ....... and a actual silver dollar (passed in front of the tiny coil) ID as '99'? Anyone care to take a shot at this???

Could it be that the TIDs are based largely upon similar signal phase responses of the coins' silver & copper alloy? The masses are different, but the alloy is the same in each coin. Signal phase responses should be determined by the target metal type and not by the MD coil sizes. Rick Shaw



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2011 05:22AM by Rick Shaw.

Software manipulation to offset the normal hardware (5" coil) response/behavior.

Rick, ..... you are on track...... but there's a bit more.

I would think coil size has nothing to do with the conductance of metal...

The metal object is what it is and any size coil that can see it will read it for it's true value...

the metal is a constant....The signal sent from the detector is a constant no matter the size coil it uses...certain laws apply that do not change...

Larger coils get stronger signals but do not read object's higher conductor compared to a smaller coil....


Keith

Tom,

Can you give us a history on the U.S. $50 octagonal gold piece? I'm very curious to know how many of these were minted and where they ended up. I know these are super rare. Most of them in California? I believe they were minted there. Any info would be greatly appreciated!

The first one in a park in Utah, an 1893 CC eagle, and the second one in Lake St. Clair in Michigan, a 1922 double eagle found in a 14K bezel missing the chain.

The 50.00 octagon was made in 1851 By Augustus Humbert, He was a watchmaker from New York and was named U,S Assayer, The contract was given to Moffat and Company. It was very unpopular BUT the government didn't authorize any coins smaller than the 50.00 piece.

The only examples I have heard of , and I am sure there are more, Were found on the U.S Central America that went down in September of 1857.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2011 01:28AM by Scubadetector.

You guys are hard to fool! You are correct. However,,,,, there is one thing that can change/alter how a different sized coil will ID targets; that being..... the number of windings/impedance... can alter ID.

As far as the Five Eagle (sometimes called 'slug')...... they were very low mintage......just a few thousand pieces (1851 - 1854)... made by a New York watch case maker...... were NOT Federal issue devices (although U.S. Govt assay authorized); yet, were fully accepted by banks as a Federal issue U.S. gold coin would be. Their indended (and mostly successful) circulation was targeted for California. . . . but did not meet the needs of daily commerce..... due to size/denomination. (((( They ID as "home-run" on any brand detector )))).

He was from New York, but living in California.

Wow, thanks for all this great info. Skin effect makes sense now.

Very interesting...

Steve

OK. I'm confused.

I read the link that Steve(MS) gave, from George Payne. I will include a portion of that text below...



"The x and r target signals are frequency dependent and obey very predictable characteristics when the operating frequency changes. We know that the x component decreases as the operating frequency decreases. Above a certain frequency the x component reaches a maximum. The r component acts differently. It is maximum at one particular frequency and decreases if you go up or down in frequency. We call the special frequency at which the r signal is maximum, the target’s “-3db” frequency. It also turns out that at the -3db frequency the x signal is one-half of its maximum value. This special frequency is unique to each target and is different for different target.

The higher the conductivity of the target the higher will be the targets -3db frequency. Conversely, the lower the conductivity the lower the -3db frequency. The -3db frequency of the high conductivity target will also make the r signal peak at a high frequency, normally well above the operating frequency of the VLF detector. This will make the high conductivity target have lower sensitivity on the VLF detector because the r signal amplitude drops if we are significantly below the -3db frequency. Simply put, maximum sensitivity on a VLF detector would be if we position the operating frequency directly at the target’s -3db frequency. For example, a dime and penny have a -3db frequency of about 2.7KHz. This is where their r signal peaks and would be the best frequency for picking them up using a VLF detector. However, a silver dollar has a -3db frequency of 800Hz. Nickels, on the other hand, have a -3db frequency, where its r peaks, at about 17KHz. Targets like thin rings and fine gold are higher still. Clearly there is no one frequency that is best for all these targets. The best you can do is have an operating frequency that is a compromise."



Now, here's my question. He states that higher conductivity targets have an "r signal" maximum, i.e. -3dB frequency, that is quite high -- "normally well above the operating frequency of a VLF detector." BUT, he then states that the -3dB frequency of a penny or dime is about 2.7 kHz, and of a silver dollar at about 800 hZ. These, to me, do NOT sound like "high" frequencies -- certainly not ABOVE the operating frequencies of most detectors. Aren't F70/75 detectors like 13 or 14 kHz, and my Gold Bug Pro 19 kHz? What am I missing here?

Another issue -- where he talks about each target having its own "best" frequency (where the r signal is maximized), and then a separate "x" frequency -- my rudimentary understanding would then suggest that a multiple-frequency detector would be BY FAR the superior approach, as opposed to single frequency, if you are interested in the best and deepest performance on a variety of targets. Would this not be the preferred direction to be headed, R&D-wise, for new detectors? Couldn't you design a detector using "best" frequencies for a number of U.S.-type coins, and given this range of r- and x-frequencies, develop an absolutely AWESOME coin shooter?

Steve

Steveg

r = (mono-) POLARITY frequency........ not to be confused with units Xmt/Rcv OPERATING frequency. Although they work together..... polarity-freq vs operating-freq are different. (Clear as mud?).

I like to refer to -3db as polarity "Max-Q".

I believe the 1280X is a 2.4-Khz operating freq unit.

YES!!!!! ...... if we choose NOT to make a paradigm shift away from electromagnetic detection (((on a magnetic-core Earth))).... and continue VLF IB platform utilization...... then YES..... a TRUE multi-freq unit is paramount.

NASA Tom --

In a way, yes, your answer was "clear as mud," but in another way, it makes sense -- as I was clearly confusing operating frequency with polarity frequency. Obviously, the "clear as mud" part is that I don't know what polarity frequency is (polarity, yes -- but polarity FREQUENCY, no...) As much as I'd like to ask for answers to my questions of "what IS polarity frequency, and why is it there, how does it come about, and what is significant about it w.r.t. detecting," I won't -- as I know you are a bit too busy to offer Electrical Engineering 101!! (Ironically, I started out in college majoring in EE before switching to Meteorology after my first semester)!

However, I WOULD like to ask -- what "paradigm shift" are you alluding to? I can see why electromagnetic detection on a magnetic-core Earth would imply substantial limitations, but I don't know of any alternatives (though clearly YOU do...)

Steve

True......and I wished I had a LOT more time to share ALL.

...... IRT paradigm shift = There are different forms of ultrasound and GPR that.... coupled with today's rapid microprocessors...... in tandem/parallel with current-day VLF IB EMF technology ........ certainly could produce better resultant performance; yet, (as of right now) ..... is a bit cost-prohibitive. Same with advanced pulse induction technologies.

Ground-penetrating radar and/or ultrasound, coupled with a VLF machine...wow. Sounds like potentially awesome technology...that sets the mind dreaming, for sure...

Steve

NASA Tom --

I have another question -- related to the recent ongoing conversation in this thread. However, since the discussion continues to go "off in the weeds" with respect to the original thread topic (how widely gold coins were dispersed), I will start a new thread, titled detector frequency/ID technicalities...

Steve

BUMP..... per request.

a hoard of double eagles was found in east london ..

19 October 2010 Last updated at 09:30

Hoard of US gold coins is found in Hackney

The coins may be worth a six-figure sum

A hoard of 80 gold coins from the US has been discovered in an east London garden.

The coins, found in Hackney, were minted between 1854 and 1913 and are estimated to be worth a six-figure sum.

While Roman coins are often found buried, it remains a mystery why the American hoard was hidden.

An inquest at St Pancras Coroner's Court announced the find and set a deadline of 8 February 2011 for the coins' owner to come forward.

'Fascinating story'
Details of how and where they were found are being kept secret to prevent false claims.

If nobody claims the coins they could be declared as treasure and become the property of the Crown.

The coins are due to go on display at the British Museum in central London on Tuesday.

Dr Roger Bland, head of portable antiquities and treasure at the museum, said: "It's a unique discovery, nothing like this has been found before.

"There is a fascinating story behind it, but we don't understand what it is.

"It's a mystery who put them in the ground, how they got hold of them and why they never came back to collect them."

More on This Story


[www.bbc.co.uk]

Interesting, but I didn't know East London was located in the U.S.

Another link: [www.dailymail.co.uk]

I have recently been requested numerous times to cite a good 'read'........ and to cite my primary source/resource for gold coin data:

United States Gold Coins
An Illustrated History
By Q. David Bowers

Bump.

Thanks, ozzie!

This is some GREAT info.

Steve

Bump

Yes.....it first rang in on the Deus, when it was under a wrist-sized cedar root, in the 30's.....but since it was showing up as non-ferrous.....it got dug, For some reason, that morning, I was "feeling my cheerios" and decided to chop the Cedar root out of the way with one of those Teknetics rock picks that they include(d) with the Tek G2. I sharpened the wide, hoe-like, end of it for root chopping. When the root was removed, I grabbed a handful of soil (it was loose under the root) and waved it in front of the coil. A Non-ferrous beeping occured!! It was in my fist!!!! I kept waving and throwing a bit of dirt away until I had it. I thought that it was a gold gilted cuff-sized flat button at first. Didn't DREAM of a gold coin. But THEN......I saw the lettering ONE on it. I knew immediately. I eased my digging stuff and Deus back into the trunk of my car, which was 8 to 10 yards away. (inadvertantly left the dtector and headphones on!!) and rushed home for an emergency identification. I'll never forget the day. I have thought very ill of myslef since then for selling it (to the local sheriff) but since we were friends and he already had another one.......CRAP I wish that I'd kept the blasted thing!!!! It would have been nice to look at and motivate me from time to time....not to mention....using it to get a reading on a new detector.

I know of 7 gold coins that have been found in the State of Florida. I have to enter a disqualifier: Beach found Spanish shipwreck gold doubloons/escudos do not count! We are talking about regular circulated American U.S. gold coins.

I am entering into my 42'nd year of coil swinging. As with many of us...... I too..... have 'epiphany' moments. When a lot of individual educational experiences come together..... a bright moment 'realization' can occur. I have been out of Country for a week (just got back)...... and had some serious 'think' time. One of the collective-thought moments was about ........ what I call "odd-ball" coin hunting. This is something that I have been performing for the past few years...... with concerted effort. "Odd-ball" coins are coins like Quarter Eagles, 3-Cent nickels, Fatty/White Cents (1857-1864), One Dollar gold coins, Shield nickels/V-nickels, 3-Cent silver Trimes, War nickels, Half Eagles etc................
These coins are not high conductors; subsequently will NOT ID as a high-tone/high-conductor coin. This is what makes them hard to find. Many of these coins were high mintage.... and high CIRCULATION. One epiphany is...... many/most 'hunted out' areas........... are "conductively unhunted" for the aforementioned coins............ making many old sites virgin again. Very few people will dig mid-conductors.... low-conductors.

If you want to find gold coins........ you have to 'odd-ball' coin hunt.

A couple of weeks ago.......... I detected a 1910's site. In one section of the site.... I pulled 7 items/implements from the mid-1870's (no coins). I only hunted the site for approx 90-minutes. I did not expect to find 1870's targets at this site; yet, 7 items were enough to validate another era/period of existence.
90-minutes of hunting......... and I ran out of daylight. I returned one week later with a entirely different detecting 'mindset' // approach. The intent was 'odd-ball' coin hunting (relic hunting inclusive). I found 8 more implements dropped/lost around 1874. Sure enough...... one of the dropped/lost items was a (approx 11 year old..... at the time of loss) penny. A 1863 White Cent.
Knowing this site was mid-1870's........ you must be astute/aware/realize that gold coins were becoming heavy in circulation again...... post Civil War.
You only need to go back about 170 years ago.......... and paper money did not exist. What does THIS mean!!! :-)

(((( I need to add quite a bit more to this thread..... and will do such..... as time progresses/permits ))))

Quote

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
I am entering into my 42'nd year of coil swinging. As with many of us...... I too..... have 'epiphany' moments.
When a lot of individual educational experiences come together..... a bright moment 'realization' can occur.
One of the collective-thought moments was about ........ what I call "odd-ball" coin hunting.
This is something that I have been performing for the past few years...... with concerted effort.
"Odd-ball" coins are coins like Quarter Eagles, 3-Cent nickels, Fatty/White Cents (1857-1864),
One Dollar gold coins, Shield nickels/V-nickels, 3-Cent silver Trimes, War nickels, Half Eagle etc................

I'm with you all the way on this one Tom,

I'm now entering my 37th yr of swinging (since 1977)

but

about 6 or 7 yrs ago I came to the same epiphany/conclusion that I too need/ed to concentrate more on finding what you call "odd-ball" coins
and for the past 3 yrs or so I've been concentrating on that aspect of coin hunting more than anything by far and it's paid off in many respects ;-)

It helps when you have a few good machines to aide in the quest (not just one) and it helps to learn them all inside and out ---

2 of the BEST machines I've ever used for coin hunting (outside of a CZ!) as we all know those are THE ultimate in their own right ;-)

were the DFX and currently the E-Trac I'm using

but

at the same time - BOTH of those machines (DFX & E-Trac) are/were the absolute hardest machines to conquer and master to the point of having that "2nd nature/intuitive" and gut feeling of confidence in/of the machine/s to the point of knowing you have a potentially good/great target deep under the coil

also - with the advent of machines like the F75 Ltd/T2 se - XP line - G2/GBP and a couple others

it's only helped to increase the finds of the "odd-ball" coins in a completely different kind of way (above and beyond) the way one typically uses (or at least in the environment) one uses machines like the DFX & E-Trac type machines

it's easy to find silver and copper coins (as long as you're someplace that holds them in the soil)

but the mid/lower conductor coins are a whole different animal and it takes a LOT of time/patience to even begin being successful in that style of coin hunting (and even more so when mixed in iron!)

sort of like steveg's "hunting gold jewelry thread" to where you have to have the mindset of "dig all" basically :-)

I learned decades ago to trust what I'm hearing above and beyond all else (and that was completely reinforced in using a CZ20 for 18 yrs) but by being not only a coin hunter in spring & fall but a jewelry hunter during the summers in the water/on the beach with that machine so - that helps a LOT in the quest for "odd-ball coins" and in being successful at finding them ;-)

HH
MRH

Hey Kevin....

You think the Sheriff would sell the Gold coin back.?

Never hurt's to ask..

Keith