How widely were gold coins dispersed in the US

speaking of gold coins, a buddy just found a 1843 $5 in a mining csmp out here. This is #7 for him. He just posted it on the kinzli California forum, and probably some others. Ray

WOW, Ray! That's SUPER!

Kind of odd, though...I find it interesting that he dug one dated 1843 -- likely at least 5-6 years before the mining camp he was detecting at was started. I'd be interested in see what kind of condition it's in...

In the book I'm reading, it describes how a miner (or anyone else, for that matter) could bring in his gold (powder, nuggets, whatever), turn it in to the assaying office at the mint, and then come back in 3 days and get his money -- whatever the gold was found to be worth by the assayer, that's what would be paid out (often in gold coin, of course). SO -- if I were hunting a mining camp in CA, I would have expected many of the gold coins that might be found to contain an "S" mintmark, or else (since the San Fran mint wasn't opened until 1854), if minted at another minting facility, to at least have been dated 1848 or later (as I would have thought that banks, or whatever other entity, who were buying the mined CA gold, would have been needing frequent shipments of gold coin to pay these guys with -- in order to constantly "replenish" the supply of coinage on hand; in other words, I wouldn't think, given the amount of raw gold being cashed in, that there would have been much "old stock" coinage laying around in the vault -- i.e. an 1843 coin...I'd surmise that they would likely have been paying it out as fast as it was being shipped in, from the Mint facilities).

Adding all of this up -- to me, it suggests at least a possibility that this could have been a coin brought TO California by a miner -- perhaps by a miner who had previously been mining the 1830s Southern Appalachian gold rush? If that coin is a Dahlonega or Charlotte coin, then I'd speculate this is the most likely scenario, in terms of how the coin got to CA (the theory being that the miner turned in some of his prior Appalachian gold finds to the assayer's office -- and got his coin, with the D or C mintmark, directly from the Mint, and then carried it with him to CA). If it's a Philadelphia or New Orleans coin, on the other hand, then my guess would be that it's most likely a fairly well-circulated coin, that found its way to CA, and eventually onto the miner's camp, it some other way.

Obviously, this is all mere speculation, but to me that's part of the fun of this hobby...pondering the the "whys" and "hows" of some of the finds we make.

I'd be interested to know where that coin was minted, and whether or not it appears to be a circulated coin...

Steve

it has a lot of wear. I have too much trouble posting pics here,or I would. Ironman is the finder,believe he post on t-net and some relic forums too.

[z5.ifrm.com] see a mintmark[z5.ifrm.com]

cool!!It worked!! heres the back,hopefully!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2014 05:08AM by deathray.

[z5.ifrm.com] if I can get the 14 gold coins I mentioned previously



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2014 05:17AM by deathray.

No mint mark means Phila mint, correct?

Yep, ozzie -- no mint mark means Philadelphia.

THANKS for the pics, deathray. It's a circulated example, for sure. That, in my mind, makes it harder to speculate about, in terms of how it got there.

I guess this is one of those "gold is where you find it" cases, where you just accept your good fortune!

AWESOME coin!

By the way, deathray -- both times you posted the link to the reverse, the link doesn't work; in both cases, you have a few "extra" characters at the end of the link, after the .jpg; for instance, in the first one, you have xxxxxxx.jpgidnt. If you edit your post, and remove the "idnt" part, the link works correctly...

THANKS for showing the pics!

Steve

Deathray, here is the reverse...

Deathray....here is the obverse..

Thanks Tri!

JJ...... that's part of the info; yet, I know I posted even more data in a different thread........... probably about 3 years ago.

Hi Tom,,I could not find it but you released enough information right there to satisfy my needs...Thanks..JJ

GOLD COIN DATA BY TOM DANKOWSKI


[www.dankowskidetectors.com]

[www.dankowskidetectors.com]

[www.dankowskidetectors.com]

[www.dankowskidetectors.com]

[www.dankowskidetectors.com]

[www.dankowskidetectors.com]

[www.dankowskidetectors.com]

[www.dankowskidetectors.com]

[www.dankowskidetectors.com]

[www.dankowskidetectors.com]

[www.dankowskidetectors.com]

[www.dankowskidetectors.com]

Tri...... thanks. These links are all links to this specific thread. On your very first (provided) link..... On Apr 07, 2010....... I even so state about reporting a lot of gold coin data in "previous threads..... but in a nut-shell". This is in the first paragraph. Soooo, this means the data I am looking for..... is prior to Apr 07, 2010............. and............. most probably NOT in a "nutshell"..... but/rather... in expanded information fashion.

NASA-Tom --

Perhaps it's simply time that you write that book on gold coins that you've joked about writing...

Steve

hey guys, Tom (ca) just posted a pic of a beautiful $20 g.c. found last week in the california motherload. This thing is au!!1855-s. Its on the kinzli california forum...

Ray --

THANKS for the info! VERY cool! Now that coin makes more sense to me; the speculation I wrote a few posts back, about the initial $5 gold coin you were discussing, applies here, too. An 1850s-era "S" mintmark coin, with very little wear, is what I would have thought to be a more common find at a CA gold camp (or a late 1840s/early 1850s Philadelphia coin, also showing little wear). That worn $5 half eagle from the early forties is more puzzling...but what do I know?!

AWESOME that another gold coin has been recovered!

Steve

With respect to the recent "Saddle Ridge Hoard" of gold coins discovered in California, Keith Southern posted this news story link ... [www.foxnews.com] ... from which NASA-Tom quoted the following portion of the article:

"Because paper money was illegal in California until the 1870s...it's extremely rare to find any coins from before that of such high quality. It wasn't really until the 1880s that you start seeing coins struck in California that were kept in real high grades of preservation..."

As NASA-Tom has pointed out, information such as this (and many other tidbits/facts such as can be gleaned from Bowers' "Gold Coins" book), have significant implications for detectorists. With paper money ILLEGAL in California until the 1870s, that would suggest that any transactions involving U.S. currency in CA prior to this time would have been conducted in gold/silver coin. Further -- due to the MASSIVE amounts of gold being mined from CA during the late 1840s and into the 1850s, and the subsequent "upsetting" of the normal price ratio between gold and silver (i.e. gold becoming much more plentiful, and thus CHEAPER, than silver), gold coins would became relatively "common" and were not "highly esteemed" in terms of value, such as they are today. These factors, combined with the large amount of CA gold being minted into coinage at the newly built San Fransisco mint, along with the huge economic boom within the U.S. after the Civil War (when railroads began connecting eastern to the western U.S., and oil and steel became HUGE industrial/economic players), all combine to suggest MAJOR circulation of gold coinage in California (and to lesser degrees, elsewhere). The mention in that article above, about how most of the San Fransisco Mint gold coinage existing today minted prior to the 1870s/80s is of "low quality" (i.e. highly circulated), further confirms the idea that substantial gold coin circulation was occurring across CA and nearby areas (and thus, of course, substantial gold coin DROPS -- waiting to be found by detectorists...)

Steve

((((( Gosh, I did it again. So as to consolidate, , , I shall cut-n-paste for this thread also ))))).

Collecting gold coins...... 100 or 150 years ago........ would be akin to: not cashing your modern paycheck(s).... only to 'save' or 'collect' them. One gold coin may be a one week.... or a one month paycheck.
But.......... yes........... gold coins were not 'cherished' to the order-of-magnitude (back then) .... as you would expect. It was just another coin. (Just a higher denomination). BUT......... once again........... this would be analogous to a $100 bill in your wallet today. Yes....... you will treat it with a bit more 'protection' and mindful-watching (because it is a higher denomination); yet, you will crumple it up....and shove it in your wallet with all the other $1, $5 bills.......... and never think twice about it. In 20 years from now............ when paper money no longer exists............. folks will be saying: "Wow! You could hold a $100 bill in your hand???!!! WOW!!!!" ""How come you did not collect thousands of $100 bills when they were in free circulation?"" """ Why didn't you treat them with such sacredness of extreme order??? """ """Didn't you realize how 'rare' and 'valuable' and 'collectable' they would become??""" How come you didn't save all of them? Were you stupid? What were you thinking!?!?

It still interests me to no end.... to this day........... when you dig up a low mintage rare coin. You may dig up a 1916 'D' Mercury dime that is G-4 worn out. This is to say..... no one cared enough to 'collect' it.... and pull it from circulation. You may dig up a gold coin with a date/mint mark..... that only a few thousand were produced. It might be beat, damaged, worn..... because no one 'collected' them..... and could care less about low mintage. Hence/subsequently; it/they "circulated".

Bottom line: Major attribute for us detectorists.

Very interesting points; I never really thought about this, with respect to, say, a $100 bill, but it makes complete sense. There WILL be a day when a $100 bill is a collector's item...and folks will probably wonder why we didn't do a better job of "preserving specimens..."

Fascinating points...

Steve

A fascinating thread that always deserves to be bumped.

And I'll add a textbook example of what Tom has enlightened us about: which gold coins circulated...and which did not.

The April 2014 issue of W&E is the annual best finds issue and they have 11 detected gold coins listed over 3 pages.

Not counting the 2 foreign gold coins or the Eagle which looks to be part of a necklace as opposed to being a circulating coin, 5 of the 8 US gold coin finds were Half Eagles. 7 of the 8 US gold coin finds were either Half Eagles or Quarter Eagles.

Marcoma, Tom Tanner is the guy with the 14 coins I spoke of. His is the first one,I believe,in the mag.

Ray, the one they have in the mag of his is a 49-d Half Eagle. Apparently a key date since they show the value at over $2000,

deathray -- I know who you are talking about; he has a post over on "Friendly" metal detecting forums, with pics of all 14 of them (Tom_in_CA).

Just amazing -- mind-blowing -- that he's found 14 of them...

Steve

Bump

bump

Something I may have merely implied; yet, need to make clear.

Let's say your quest is to find a gold coin(s). You have a 1852 site and a 1892 site that you can hunt. The 1852 era had substantially (several times) more gold coins in circulation vs the 1892 site; yet, the 1852 site had 40 more years for targets/coins to sink out of detectable range. You 'may' have a better chance of finding a gold coin at the newer site.

BUT

Also......... keep this in mind. This past weekend, I had a educational/repeat experience worth sharing. I was detecting a typical Florida park. I found a 1964 silver dime resting in a natural, undisturbed setting of 'soil only'.... at a depth of just over 9". Due to the wear/condition of the coin, , , I speculate it was lost around the summer of 1968.
I also found a 1942 silver dime in EF-40 condition........ probably lost around Thanksgiving of 1942. When it should have been resting in it's natural dirt environment at a depth of approx 14"............... it was found at a shallow depth of only 8". Extenuating circumstance: The coin was resting perfectly on top of a 4-inch diameter tree root. Due to environmental conditions....... as the tree (and subsequent root structure/system was growing)....... the coin was 'pushed up' by the tree root....... into detectable range.

Moral-of-the-story: While you may have better environmental conditions (advantageous sink-rate) at a newer site that may contain gold coins........ there are indeed circumstances that allow you to find a gold coin at a much older site.... with most targets having sunk out of detectable range. If there is a higher volume of gold coins lost at a particular site...... your statistics/probability of finding one that............ for what ever reason............ 'environmental conditions' have kept the target from sinking out of detectable range; this authorizes/grants you the ability of finding a gold coin (of even older era).

Haven't read all the finding gold coin posts, I have hunted for over 30 years, NADA. How many have I walked over and missed? I always figured if and when (Not done yet!) I find one, it will be with another coin (Silver) is my guess. I have for years assumed it will be a $5 Indian.

Probably not an Indian....... as they hardly "circulated".

Great thread.............bump..........