Tom,
Come see Ozzie and I. We can take you to thousands of acres of farmers fields farmed since 1700s. you want fields.......we have fields, sir.

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I did tell her: I seek areas of erosion...….or...…
> .. farmers fields that have continuously been plow
> ed for decades. (And maybe centuries).

Rod...…. I would really like to come see (and hunt) you and Steve. I have actually thought of meeting up with some folks! My brother lives in Annapolis..... and...… I'm not afraid to log some windshield time.

It never ceases to amaze me...…..that...……. in my (highly sanitized) test-garden.....,,,,,,, (for example): the EQX will acquire a 14.0" dime. But...….. in the real World.....,,,,,,,, I'm lucky if I can acquire a 10" deep dime. ----- How disheartening!
BUT...….. this is an (unsuspecting..... to many) education on.,.,.,.,.,., just exactly...…"HOW" contaminated the real World (real dirt) truly is. My test-garden does NOT have tiny little flecks/flakes of rust, birdshot or any contaminants to (silently/quietly) inhibit full performance.
This is what makes a test-garden: AWESOME to learn from; yet, will educate you....in real-World dirt (which is a infinite variable)…….. to real-World REALITY!
Now add mineralization!

NASA-Tom -- interesting; curiously, I must assume that your EQX will also acquire a dime at 14" in an air test, right?

Thanks!

Steve

Steve...….. yes...…..that is correct.
Same scenario with the Nokta Simplex. (Both in test-garden......and...... in the real-World).

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Last week I had lunch with a State Archaeologist.
> She asked me one question:
>
> "Tom...… are you still dabbling with the most rece
> nt 80-years of losses in the top several inches of
> the first layer of peat/dirt?"
>
> After lunch...…… tail tucked between legs...…… we
> went our separate ways.

I've seen similar said by archie's, that their not interested in the top layer, but on some of my sites there's maybe 10-12 inch of top soil before it hits hard clay or in other cases rock.
So you can find items going back 2000 years on these site's as they don't sink past the clay/rock.
A good example was this morning, I was detecting near the top of a hill, mostly finding 1800's coppers but a few days before I dug a 1500's silver, then when I looked down the valley probably 1/2 mile away beside a river (now the grounds of a Hilton hotel !) there had been a bronze age axe head found, and behind the hotel there's a castle that produced another axe head.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2020 12:45PM by ghound.

ghound……….very true. Erosion is a bright 'flag' to a astute detectorist. I constantly seek to find areas of erosion. Inland/turf/dirt hunting...…. beach hunting...….. or otherwise. I live in Florida, U.S.A. …….. whereby...…… it is merely nothing but a sandbar peninsula. The sink-rate in this sandbar State....is horrific.
On the beach...… many Meters deep...….. is a coquina-rock shelf. When/If that shelf becomes exposed...….. 1000's of years of aggregate-collection......becomes exposed.
To most: Erosion is a detriment.
To some: Erosion is a attribute.

I hunted an early 1800's site a couple of months ago and dug an 1853 seated quarter, it was fairly deep at 8-9". No more than 50 feet away, I get the identical signal on my EQ800, At a similar depth, I see a likewise sized silver disc flash by as I excavate the target, but when I retrieved it, I was shocked to discover it was a 1930's Washington quarter. Same depth, yet one of these things shouldn't be there. Odd.

Yes...… I have had that happen before.,.,.,.,., and quite a few times!

If only for...…….say: a few hunts...…………. could dig targets ONLY in the 12" - 24" depth range. Then look at the nominal median average of their overall 'age'!!!

Yesteryears metal detector:
1. Detects/reports: Metal

-------------------
Modern metal detector:
1. Detects/reports: Metal
2. Detects/reports: Conductivity

------------------
Future metal detector:
1. Detects/reports: Metal
2. Detects/reports: Conductivity
3. Detects/reports: Density
4. Detects/reports: Shape

It seems/appears to take about 40-years...... to add another -----"dimension"----- of technological-advancement.

Shape is an interesting one.... with some machines...say the Xcal you can hear the roundness/more solid tones of a ring.

Whilst inland hunting with the EQX...…. in a crude/rudimentary way.,.,.,.,.,.,.,., I can tell 'size' and 'shape' of detected target......with a fair degree of accuracy.

(((This should be able to be electronically captured...….. harnessed ……….then expounded upon))).

"This should be able to be electronically captured ... then expounded upon."

I've posted previously about 'capturing' sweep data. Originally, I had thought a 'replay' function would be useful, where the past 5 seconds of data could be re-heard, and perhaps at slow-speed. Then it occured to me that if the data is already stored, it can be analysed more thoroughly : it's not essential to aim for low latency eg 80msec; and the peak of the signal can be determined after-the-fact, rather than having to do it real-time. But this can be extended to intentionally storing a slow sweep ( to gather more data ) then analysing it, and re-playing it at 'normal-sweep' rate.

Couldn’t it be shown on a screen much like the CTX does Only clearer

There are some units with a very high pixel/high-resolution LCD screen.

Pimento...… I could see that playing into the open-field hunters......seeking to find exceptionally deep targets.

I have talked about this in the past; yet, today (for some reason) expressed/exposed a new 'angle'. A different 'light'.

It is easy for us detectorists to understand that we detect by: audio.
It is difficult for us detectorists to understand … just HOW critical: 'audio presentation' truly is.
We just don't realize.... to the correct order-of-magnitude …… HOW critical "audio" truly is.
Many folks have even claimed that their ID (VDI..... or otherwise) is nearly as important as audio. ===And it is THIS statement...…. that is totally incorrect.

Let me go one step further. Imagine if you suddenly became COMPLETELY DEAF! Do you think you could go detecting? Do you think you would have much success? Go try it sometime! It's a real eye-opener!
A few weeks ago...… I had a pair of headphones completely (and suddenly) fail on me..... whilst in the field. I did indeed have a emergency backup pair (new-in-box)….. in my vehicle; yet, I wanted to play a game on myself. I TRIED to find a coin ….. whilst completely deaf.

ABSOLUTELY NO-GO!!!! Absolutely impossible. I had my eyes glued to the faceplate; yet, numbers were continuously/constantly flashing up on screen...… and in extremely rapid fashion. Again: ABSOLUTELY NO-GO!!!!

Now...………. let's go (yet) another step further. (And I have done this ...many times). I had been hunting a particular field where a old 1890 church had once stood. It is no longer there. I speculate it burned down. The amount of melted aluminum blobs, aluminum roof flashing pieces, melted copper pipe.....etc...….. Bottom line: There is a TON of (my nightmare) high-tone trash! It is my job …. to 'pick out' the high-tone coins...out of the high-tone ocean of trash! I was on a mission. I was on a campaign.
I spent several sessions (hunts) at this particular site...….. trying to 'pick out'... the high tone coins ONLY. When I (finally) felt "complete"...……….,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, that I had recovered all of the high-tone 'coins'.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,., I then took a 4-month break from this site. After my 4-month brain-break.....,,,,,,, I decided to go back...… and start recovering (as many as my patience would allow)…. all of the "other" high-tone trash.
Bottom line: After 7-hours of hunting...… I had only recovered 2 coins. One was a heavily tilted (and corroded) Zinc penny. The other was indeed a wheat penny...….that was mostly masked by the tongue of a round/ring-tab.

Who cares! Where am I going with all of this data?

AUDIO intel !!!

It is in the CRITICALITY of the audio intel presentation. In the (above) case...…. a coin has a very distinct audio...… with the following 'signatures':
1. Crisp
2. Short
3. Sharp
4. Clear
5. Nearly non-wavering
6. Clean

7. Square preamble
8. Solid body/text
9. Square post-amble

Bottom line: It is paramount that 'audio presentation' is as 'maximum-intelligent' as possible. (((Again: Try detecting: deaf))). The old CZ platform still retains THE most intelligent "coin-tone" audio presentation...…..ever; …….yet, the CZ can be 'masked out' fairly easily. The 50-Tones of the EQX.... is premium...… as long as your brain can process that many tones. And..... as fast as the microprocessor of the EQX can convey..... those 50-Tones can 'warble' (waiver) in ((close to)) real-time audio presentation. This is fairly close to 'raw audio feed'; yet, with conductive hair-splitting tone intelligence! A flat coin.....has no warble. A tilted coin (especially in close proximity) to a piece of trash..... will usually 'warble'. The AMOUNT of 'warble' span is primarily dictated by: steepness of tilt.,.,.,., and proximity to other trash item(s).

How do we 'improve' audio presentation..... above and beyond this. , . , . , . , . , . , . , . , . , . , . since audio is EVERYTHING?

I can totally relate to the deaf example. Years ago I drove 45 minutes from my house to a site I had hunted many times before with my CZ 6a. When I got there I found that I had forgot my headphones....and for those who have/had a CZ know you need headphones because the 6a doesn't have a speaker. I thought to myself I can do this, I know this site well. Well after 20 minutes I gave up and drove home.

Multi tone selections on metal detectors such as the Equinox and Deus for me is the biggest improvement. It does take some time to train your brain. But once you get it down you never want to go back to 5 or 2 tones.

The best VDI I've ever experienced is the V3 "SpectraGraph." It shows target subtleties that even audio can miss, although admittedly the V3 audio leaves a lot to be desired, at least by today's standards. I can imagine with some enhancements to the V3 display that it could be quite good for a deaf user. But even then, audio provides a more "real-time" response and, more importantly, has better sensitivity to targets at the fringe of detection.

I am personally a fan of real-time audio (audio pitch that tracks the entire target phase response) and mixed-mode stereo. Yes, it is a challenge to learn and in really trashy areas you need a way to dial it down. But if you can stand the noise and learn what it says, you can get a mental picture of what's in the ground.

A buddy of mine was a beta tester for the V3 series and was quite good with it. He was able to use the SpectraGraph to tell a pull-tab from a gold ring with stunning accuracy. Same for a silver dime vs a copper penny.

Too many times...……………….. I seem to (wrongfully) implicate that the EQX 50-Tones is nearly too 'hard' to learn...…. too 'hard' to comprehend. The truth is: intelligibly (audibly) sequentially rhythmic audio presentation (with these 50-tones)……. in frequency stair-stepping staccato fashion; subsequently = makes it very easy to mentally compartmentalize these tones...… into frequency 'groupings' …… mentally. IF you are not tone-deaf...… or frequency 'range' deaf...…. this form of artificial intelligence.... is 'key'.

The Delta Pitch (DP) of some of the Fisher platforms ….. presented some of these attributes.

Carl is correct with: "(audio pitch that tracks the entire target phase response)". Let's use a jagged piece of cut up aluminum can-slaw......as an example. As the coil passes over different portions of this jagged piece of aluminum...… the coil 'sees' different CONDUCTIVITIES...……. and different SIGNAL STRENGTHS...… of this very same target. IF IF IF the microprocessor is clocked quick enough...….. not only will you hear the conductive delta 'warble'...….. you will even hear the amplitude deltas of the differing signal strengths.
THAT'S: AUDIO INTELLIGENCE!!!

it's most interesting to observe the performance of a "single tone" instrument
such as a (tesoro),in that once one knows the subtle differences in audio nuances
from target to target, how enormously enjoyable this detector can be, plus a "large"
bank account is NOT required.a classic example of audio intel.

(h.h.!)
j.t.

A lot of thought has gone into audio intelligence, but few detectors actually focus on audio quality.

A full target sound is much more telling than some of those inferior frequency generator scratchy tones.

Just like listening to a live orchestra is much more conveying than playing a compressed digital file on cheap earbuds.

As long as detectors aren’t communicating in real time head up displays, those that offer quality audio will still have a loyal following.

HH
Johnb

tesoros analog circuits convey information, that once mastered
make the detector a pleasure to use.tesoro had this "clear informative ability" "
to accurately discriminate by "ear" a long time ago.

(h.h.!)
j.t.

scoopjohnb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A lot of thought has gone into audio intelligence,
> but few detectors actually focus on audio quality.
>
> A full target sound is much more telling than some
> of those inferior frequency generator scratchy ton
> es.
>
> Just like listening to a live orchestra is much mo
> re conveying than playing a compressed digital fil
> e on cheap earbuds.
>
> As long as detectors aren’t communicating in real
> time head up displays, those that offer quality au
> dio will still have a loyal following.


I get what you're saying about Tesoro. I've used the Vaquero for many years and the Shadow x2. I could usually tell when I was going to dig a coin with the Vaquero by the shape of the sound.
I've since moved to the Equinox 800 and love it!!
The Equinox on 50 tones and FE2-0 has way way more audio resolution...at least for my hearing.
One thing I think would be neat to have in addition to audio resolution is, instead of a VDI number, display a spectrogram waterfall. I can already train my brain to hear audio warbles, wouldn't it be cool to have a visual reference of the actual audio tone instead of a number?

Pulltab king said , wouldn't it be cool to have a visual reference of the actual audio tone instead of a number?
This is why i have a CTX where the cursor is displayed is the same tone you will receive also if you build target trace in pinpoint mode it well paint a picture of all the tones at the ID number associated with the tones .sube

One step further than the CTX. Not a ferrous / non ferrous average algorithm.

A near, real-time spectrogram of the high resolution audio. A spectrum of frequencies of a signal as it varies with time. Plot the audio in 3D... real-time waterfall.

Think of it as Morse Code. Dots and dashes on the display corresponding to the roll/warble of 50+ tones.
Maybe we need 99+ tones for this to work. I can train my ears/brain to listen for tones.
I can train my eyes/brain to recognize patterns.

We need another form of visual recognition (not a number scale VDI or cursor) working simultaneously with a high resolution audio waveform.

I've been thinking about this for a while. It's late, we are on lockdown and I'm bored...so I'm here at 2 am sharing my thoughts.
I know for sure someone in here has the smarts to shoot my idea down or elaborate on my idea.
Maybe we've reached the limits of VLF machines.
Or maybe I just need to suck it up and buy a Tarsacci.
Or maybe I just need to accept the fact, that elusive US gold coin is masked by the dang nail!

PTK...… you do not need a Tarsacci…. unless you are a beach hunter with genuine/serious intent...….or...….you live in 2-bar dirt (or higher).

99-Tones is plausible; yet, it would still work within the confines of the current audio tone-span of: 200Hz to 1000Hz. A faster clock-speed...……….. getting us closer to 'real-time' audio...… is probably more usable/employable.
I still question: fancy displays. A display only BECOMES useful...… when the audio has already locked up your brakes...… and you are probably going to dig...anyway. You MUST audibly FIND a target FIRST. THEN...…. (and only then) will you look at a fancy display. The thing is...……….

AUDIO = Master
DISPLAY = Slave

The display is merely a visual representation of the audio. Yes..... it is possible to imbed/display things that you may not hear. BUT...….. you need to have already locked up your brakes...…on a particular target-of-interest. THEN (read = secondarily) ...you will employ a display. Audio is primary.

About every Decade...… I do a inventory RATIO count. 49 years of cumulative/collected/aggregate data reveals...…(in a nutshell):

For every 5-1/2 silver dimes found..... a "other" silver coin is found.
"Other" = Trimes, Half Dimes, Quarters, Half Dollars, Silver Dollars...…. and Reales of any denomination.

If I were to compare: How many silver Dimes are found.... per silver Quarter...… the Dimes ratio is much higher.

Sooooooo…….. moral of the story is...…… silver dimes are the MOST 'found' silver coin. It would behoove Mfr's to have (at least one) program that very specifically targets (resonant freq) for the most common (and probably sought after) silver coin.

((( Also...… as a side-note: 5-1/2 wheat pennies are found.....per silver dime found. )))

This 1:5.5 ratio withstands! And..... for the test-of-time.

Headphones.... most seem to use the same piezo or audio sear speakers. The wrong phones can really change audio and volume. I use the audio with a glance at the screen. Some seem to weigh heavily on their screen.... most looking for a reason NOT to dig.

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Too many times...……………….. I seem to (wrongfully) i
> mplicate that the EQX 50-Tones is nearly too 'hard
> ' to learn...…

Love their 50 tone implementation, a cross between digital and analog, not soo digital it's offensive to listen to for hours, and it's sweet on the right targets.

> The Delta Pitch (DP) of some of the Fisher platforms ….. presented some of these attributes.

Couldn't get dialed in to the DP on the F75 platform, harsh artificial digital tones were terrible on the ears. I know a like it, but they are in the niche.
>
> Carl is correct with: "(audio pitch that tracks t
> he entire target phase response)". Let's use a jag
> ged piece of cut up aluminum can-slaw......as an e
> xample. As the coil passes over different portion
> s of this jagged piece of aluminum...… the coil 's
> ees' different CONDUCTIVITIES...……. and different
> SIGNAL STRENGTHS...… of this very same target. IF
> IF IF the microprocessor is clocked quick enough..
> .….. not only will you hear the conductive delta '
> warble'...….. you will even hear the amplitude del
> tas of the differing signal strengths.
> THAT'S: AUDIO INTELLIGENCE!!!

WIth the new Minelabs and Noktas using the multi-core, multi-threaded Cortex ARM 64-bit CPUs, there's no excuse not to have enough CPU horsepower in this day and age, and these compute platforms are cheap to boot!