deathray Wrote:
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> Im in!


Me 2!

jimmyjiver Wrote:
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> Hi,,,,I can't help wondering if I fall into any of
> them numbers on Tom's categorical list????..JJ

Hello JJ you were off the scale and your bandwidth was weighed and found wanting!!?

I would definitely be in.

Would need to decide interest, and a generous person that could procure a large site, the older, the better (civil war, colonial, etc).

On a side note regarding a group, although the hunt wouldn't been vendor specific, we do spend a LOT of time here talking about First Texas machines.

Perhaps we could get some vendor participation?

Another random thought:

* Here we are ........ with today's technological advancements (limitations)....... having the capability of detecting/seeing the first small handful of 'INCHES' in the Earth. (Not even a couple of feet). Here in the United States.............. this brings us to a nominal median average of finding...... nearly on a daily basis..... (approximately) 100 year-old stuff........ on average. On average......... we are capable of finding Indian Head Cents and Barber dimes.
The question is: How long have humans (with subsequent metallic implements) been around!!!!
(((( Where IS it??? ))))

NASA-Tom Wrote:
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> Another random thought:
>
> * Here we are ........ with today's technological
> advancements (limitations)....... having the
> capability of detecting/seeing the first small
> handful of 'INCHES' in the Earth. (Not even a
> couple of feet). Here in the United
> States.............. this brings us to a nominal
> median average of finding...... nearly on a daily
> basis..... (approximately) 100 year-old
> stuff........ on average. On average......... we
> are capable of finding Indian Head Cents and
> Barber dimes.
> The question is: How long have humans (with
> subsequent metallic implements) been around!!!!
> (((( Where IS it??? ))))

I think you post/ask us these type/s of questions JUST to mess with us Tom!!

All kidding aside,

and in using my super duper deductive reasoning skills ;-) and in reading between the lines here = I'd bet to say that MOST of what we'all seek as detectorist (be it coins, CW relics, jewelry, gold, etc) lies deeper than what our current devices allow us to find/seek.

I've seen 1st hand (as many here probably have too) what happens when a layer of earth is stripped away in a once target rich site that is now dead (even just 12" of top soil)... Many times it opens up a whole new world of finds as though the site has never been touched and many times revealing much older targets/artifacts than what was once being found...

Finds are still there in the millons all over the world.

They are either deeper, out of sensitivity spec, masked by unwanted trash or mis ID by discrimination systems and/or resting beneath difficult mineraliced soil.

But many/maybe most breaking news finds are where no coil have been and it will only take a cheap detector to find them.

OldandBold Wrote:
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> Finds are still there in the millons all over the
> world.
>
> They are either deeper, out of sensitivity spec,
> masked by unwanted trash or mis ID by
> discrimination systems and/or resting beneath
> difficult mineraliced soil.
>
> But many/maybe most breaking news finds are where
> no coil have been and it will only take a cheap
> detector to find them.

I heard it said many times that area is hunted out. - Yet even in places where we dectorist frequent there are still cool finds that are found - so I am guessing you are right still A lot within reach. keep swinging folks keep swinging - there's gold in them there hills ;-)

Bryanna - Nebraska

Current - New to me but not new MXT Pro and T2 SE2 - Previous Minelab Sovereign GT, Minelab Safari, Whites DFX, Whites Eagle Spectrum
Smile its a good for you!

OldandBold Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Finds are still there in the millons all over the
> world.
>
> They are either deeper, out of sensitivity spec,
> masked by unwanted trash or mis ID by
> discrimination systems and/or resting beneath
> difficult mineraliced soil.
>
> But many/maybe most breaking news finds are where
> no coil have been and it will only take a cheap
> detector to find them.

yes on that one, like guys in England who buy low-end or garage sale units and find hoards....

They are out there Tom, but as you have pointed out so well, masking is hiding the majority of our detectable targets.

The question is: How long have humans (with subsequent metallic implements) been around!!!!

13,026 years in total since Adam

The flood in 4,990 BC would have buried the metal implements in the Mesopotamia area, that had been in use for 8,000 years, under thick sediment beds.

The first civilization following the flood would be the rise of Babylonia on the plains of Shinar in the Mesopotamia Valley built sometime prior to 3150BC (probably about 3500BC)

Egypt arose as the second great civilization following the dispersal of the population of Babylonia in the days of Peleg (3153-2914BC), as they gained the skilled craftsmen scattered from Babylonia. With the dispersion there was a corresponding knowledge loss amongst some language groups. Most of these who migrated to the Americas did not carry the knowledge of writing, dispersing prior to its invention subsequent to the division of languages, and neither did they carry the knowledge of metal working.

Sea level was much lower following the flood for several centuries - migration of peoples was possible into the Americas. Eventually the sediment-laden continents re-established equilibrium and sank into the mantle, with this sea level rose in compensation.

Likely, the ancestors to the American Indians migrated across the land bridge by the Bering Sea (in multiple migrations) to join peoples already living in North America. During this time period the departing from the area of Taiwan, peoples dispersed around the Mid-Oceanic Ridge in the Pacific, as the lowered seas made this a major corridor to the northeast; with peoples settling in Central and South America. The lowered seas allowed island hopping in outriggers and rafts (to the Polynesian Islands), decreasing the distance these vessels had to travel (what are islands today would have been connected, or nearly so.)

The two populations (one ancestral to the East Asians and the other to western Eurasians), formed the populations of the Americas, speaking hundreds of different languages. Only a few of the later people groups carried with them a knowledge of writing - a very basic picture writing used by the later Mayan and Aztec cultures.

Closely following the division of languages, the development of writing was pursued in Sumer using clay tablets (about 3100BC). This first Sumero-Accadian cuneiform was used to develop all other languages (Hittite, Urartian, Cossean, Elomirte, Canaanite, Egyptian, and Aramic, Chinese, etc.)

Following this (after 2900BC), in the Mesopotamia area, sciences arose and the rediscovery of metal work, medicine, brickwork, artistry, etc., which was exported, especially writing and the written texts within the Mesopotamia region.

In the Americas, the new world indigenous cultures were based on non-metallic technology and without a written language. There was no widespread use of metal tools or weapons anywhere in the Pre-Columbian world. The advancement of metal work (beyond jewelry) came in the 1500's with Spanish invaders. Otherwise, the Viking or Medieval Norse invasions into upper Canada around 1000AD would be the other localized area of metal work development in North America. There is plenty of evidence that the Norse explored what is now Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Tennessee, West Virginia, Oklahoma, Colorado, and even Paraguay.

There have been incidental finds of bronze Roman coins dating to 268AD along the north bend of the Ohio River. Other bronze Roman coins have been found in Arkansas in 1973 by a guy with a metal detector. The coin had been struck in Carthage before 146BC about the time of the Third Punic War. There was a Norse penny found in Maine in 1978. So, it is likely there were visits by other peoples into North America over the ensuing centuries by boat and on foot.

Wow.......... nice report Johnny!

I HOPE that this is in the same vein of the topic: My neighbor/friend aloowed me to hunt her pasture (joins to my yard). Well, I went over there, and started detecting. I heard NO iron grunts, No responses at all. All of a sudden......blip blip blip..........so I pinpointed and dug. Out popped an 1824 (or thereabouts) Franc!!!! Silver!!!! No where did THAT come from!!!! I spent a few hours circling that spot and being meticulous in so doing. Nothing. Not an iron grunt. Nothing. The coin must have dropped out of a French Trappers bag or something. Who knows where the next relic/coin will appear. I was nonplussed.

Lets get back to group hunt. Anyone in midwest that could gain access to big area? Not sure how some would feel about it,but one thought if we donated between $20-50 bucks to a landowner,...well money talks. Any real interest? I say midwest,since its obviously centrally located.

Oldest human hand print, carbon dated to 32,000 years old, Chauvet cave France

Incredible artwork from same cave

Didn't know spray pain has been around so long....Top pic looks like Krylon Cherry Red.

It's Red ochre, Fe2O3........I think they used to spit it on on their hand to make the stencil........wonder what they used for toothpaste!

* As years progress........ it seems standard/stock coil size has increased. Thirty years ago..... 6" - 8" coils were nominal standard. Now........... it looks like 11" coils are 'standard'.

((( Additional amplifying/interesting info/observation(s) = Some of today's technology presents detectors with an optional 5" coil......... that can ascertain greater depths over yesteryears detectors with 8" coils............. AND substantially greater/enhanced adjacent target separation characteristics. )))

I think there is lots of good finds to be had that is masked by trash or iron (2" to 12"deep) a detector with very good unmasking capability and a whole lot of patience is what it's going to take to unearth these treasures.

Both "depth" and "unmasking" are equally critical......... MUCH more so ..... due to unsuspecting 'unknowns' !

* I'm a bit frustrated the analog XP GMP is not 'more available' in the United States. (Especially for the serious/technical detectorists on this particular forum). Rid the wireless headphones...... and bring that detector into the U.S. Market. (I'm not much of a proponent for wireless headphones).
Yes...... the Deus is a wonderful unit/engineering platform; yet is more than double the cost of the GMP. And ....... the GMP is quite a bit more K.I.S.S. principle.

Yes, the GMP is one of the best unmasking detectors made. No reason to buy a Deus to better the performance for the 18 khz frequency.

Maybe a niche opens for someone who disable the wireless transmitter.

XP should develop the same detector in a more modern looking detector for the niche market.

* The bulk of my old coins (in my 43 years of detecting.....thus far) were not found 40 - 43 years ago; rather, in the last 12 - 15 years. And........ this is to say............. the bulk of all my old coins were found with a CZ. Of all the detectors available on the open market...... even to this date....... the CZ platform is, by far, the pinnacle 'coin-specific' audible human intelligible platform...... ever. There are lessons to be learned from this. There is 'good' and ... there are 'handicaps' (bad) with the CZ. This is where 'history' EDUCATES.

Learn from the 'good'. Then advance.... with what has been learned.
Learn from the 'bad'. Then advance.... with what has been learned.
(Double-win/Double-advancement).

What have we learned:

* The bulk of my GOOD coins found with the CZ.... were at 'fringe depths'. When can the CZ ascertain 'fringe depths'?..... In trash-free/sparse target environments. These are areas that are AWAY from structures/buildings (where the bulk of good targets actually reside). This is ALSO to say..... the CZ 'shuts-down'.... (is rendered nearly useless)..... in human co-habitation areas...... due to mega-masking..... whereby, the old 'non-focused' concentric coil "sees" too much; subsequently, is badly masked.
What can be learned from this: Good targets are deep....... and can only be found in trash-free areas when using a CZ.
.............................................Good targets are MASKED in human co-habitation areas (near/close to buildings/structures).

* The CZ's 'audio' .... specifically for coins..... is substantially time-saving ..... DUE to it's audio intelligibility factor. (((Yes..... I'm (somewhat modified) repeating this..... deliberately))). We can LEARN from this. Especially Design Engineers.... for technologically moving 'forward'.

* Does the CZ have handicaps? Yes, can easily be masked. Can we // Have we ..... learned from this? Yes. The F75 with 5" DD coil ,,,,, and the GMP begins to combat the CZ's downfall........ by presenting better adjacent target separation characteristics.

* Are there detectors that parallel the CZ's performance? .... and in the same trash-free areas? Yes, the Minelabs. BUT..... even though the audio of the Minelabs are exceptionally good/intelligent.... and (in particular) to deep coins..... the audio on the Minelabs are still... not as 'human intelligible "fast" ' as the CZ.

* What can be learned by the fact that the bulk of my old/good coins were found more recently..... knowing they have sunk to deeper depths. . . due to 'more years in the ground'? Technology HAS advanced! (Yes, my skillset has also increased; yet, not at the rate that technology has advanced..... and..... I was still a good/skilled hunter 30 years ago).

Can you learn from the good?
Can you learn from the bad?

Absolutely!
Absolutely!

-----------------------------------------------

Side note. When you get closer to a building/structure ..... (in general)...... old targets are not as deep.... as long as a sprinkler system has never been employed. Anyone care to take a guess as to 'why' ??? (((The reason differs from "underneath" a structure/building))).

Tom

The ground is more "disturbed & compacted" due to human activity and therefore the sink rate isn't as fast/severe as in undisturbed areas?

I think the one way to really get a handle on this is to be able to have the perfect test garden with fringe targets and the detector your hunting with so you can hear or not hear what you machine can or can't do.

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

Wayne. Done! Exactly.
.... For example. If a target (say...a coin) is 12" deep...... in a non-traveled area. Then..... if..... human foot-travel suddenly becomes 'regular'..... the dirt will become compacted..... and that 12" deep target will now only be 6" deep..... due to the compaction of the soil. This is a 'general' statement/measurement..... and there are plenty of variable disqualifiers that could be brought up.............. yet........... 'in general' .... is the word of the day.

Lawrenzo = Absolutely. Test-gardens are soooo underestimated...... as to the amount of intelligence that can be gleaned from. (I have plenty of 'real-world' targets around the entire State of Florida..... that I refuse to dig up,,,, leaving them lay in undisturbed/natural dirt....... as ........ they provide 'real' test-garden (via real-world conditions) .... testing abilities). Educationally priceless!

Lets start building process of these historic structures to see if we can come up with the answer to Tom's question.

Referring to the old colonial homes here in PA. and probably many other parts of the country.

Trees were cut and stumps removed if the land was wooded. Cellars were dug and the stone from the dig was incorporated into the structure. They also pulled stone from other areas of the property. The soil from the cellar was spread around the immediate area. The cellar was dug with enough room to lay the stone from the outside, so the cellar hole was larger than the building footprint...loosing the soils virginity a few feet outside the foundation and loosing the natural compactness of that area. The also graded the perimeter of the house so the rain water would run away from the house. Some homes had gutters built into the roof to move water away from the perimeter so the water wouldn't seep into the disturbed soil and back through the stone foundation and into the cellar.

Back then they didn't scrape the topsoil off and pile it for later use like they do today.

All this going on as wagons, beast of burden and foot traffic compacted the top layer....below that, the soil was still virgin and packed by mother nature over the eons of time.
With the home complete, the family settles and life begins at the homestead.

Through the decades perhaps centuries as MRH said, human activity, animals, wagons all the way up to todays vehicles etc moved about the area. Guessing, they didn't have manicured lawns back then, cutting the area was done by sickles and scythes, so my guess is that the lawns were weedy and rough. People played, worked and lost things or they were discarded at the property dump.

The majority of the property was farmed and planted. The soil was turned every year and the top layer was always loose compared to the strata below. The lost items such as coins were either turned up or they settled below the plows reach.

Around the home, spring house, well, barn etc, the soil was more compact and virgin for the most part and the water 'ran off' possibly faster than it perked.....hence sink rate slower than the fields.

Feel free to add to the above so we can get the answer to Tom's question........that's all I have unless someone else jars my brain.

Ha, I see I'm a bit late.....and long.

Steve; yet..... a well worded example.

I had a very clear/discrete eye-opening experience with electromagnetic detection handicap's recently. I have brought this up (somewhat incrementally) ... in past threads.... through the years........ but not to the epiphany/eye-opening, order-of-magnitude, consolidated/collective recent experience level.

* There are 3 very specific, discrete detection-inhibiting elements that are nearly always encountered whilst hunting older home-sites:

1. Iron flecks/flakes.
2. Dirt mineralization.
3. Actual iron implements .... usually nails.

EACH one of these....... solely/independently ........ by themselves ......... will hinder/reduce performance of any electromagnetic detection device.

Bottom line; One unit may handle iron specks/flecks/flakes better than other units. Another unit may handle mineralization better than other units. And..... yet, a entirely different unit/platform may handle solid/actual iron implements .... such as nails/square nails.... better than any other unit. . . . . . to include a more positive/reliable ID of iron,,,,even at depth(s).

So far....... I have witnessed units that can handle (less affected/hindered) iron flecks/flakes to a superior ability...... will ALSO handle bad mineralization very well. Ironically, there is no guarantee..... that a unit that handles bad mineralization....... will also handle iron flecks/flakes very well. I have yet to find/use a unit that handles bad mineralization well....... and also do well with flecks/flakes of rust. This seems to be a bit of a paradox.

And then there are solid iron implements (nails, barbwire, nuts/bolts/screws/hardware etc.... ) where many different brands of detectors can have all sorts of varying degrees of falsing, mis-ID'ing, masking, nulling etc........

To engineer a unit that handles all 3 with superior performance.... is truly a engineering feat. So far....... the XP GMP and Deus shine the best in this department. Although not perfect; yet, when comparing head-to-head with other units...... these XP units are indeed superior.

.....................................

Yes, salts, magnetite, deeper depths, aluminum handling/ID are a few other examples of electromagnetic detection woe's.......................... but............................... items 1, 2, 3, above are a major handicap with subsequent engineering difficulties imposed.

Much more thoughts..... but out of time!