CZ owners - Salt training 101

another idea, buy beach front on a temporary base, have front loaders dump the sand into screeners and lay it back on the beach clean, and charge the town for cleaning the beach, I wonder how deep you would have to go and how much gold and other things there are deep down, if it's enough to start in Maine and end in Florida, I know I need to get out and detect

The Gold Bug SE does not Grnd Balance to wet salt sand. (At least, not here in Florida).

CZ settings for Florida East Coast wet salt beaches:

Auto-tune
'Salt' mode
Grnd Bal '10'
Sens '10'
Volume '10'

Tom.... I wonder why that is. Is it due to less salinity, conductivity, mineralization ?


The ground balance number on my GB SE here in NJ, in the wet sand, ranges from about 1.2 to about .8 in most spots, and is slightly positive. I then use the manual process to get it dead on. Most beaches are not that mineralized, but they do have iron junk in them and a few do have some black sand, but I have never taken a magnet to the sand to see if it's iron mineralization or something else.

I have said this before, my GB SE ( 2.9 version) is the best single frequency unit I have ever used on the beaches I hunt here. When I say that, I mean not only in terms of smoothness in how it runs, but in visual and tone ID, depth and separation of targets.

I am going to do some depth tests on silver dimes, silver quarters, nickels, small gold rings, small earrings and a few pendants between the GB SE, CZ6a, DFX ( in several modes) and E-Trac in both discriminate and all metal modes over the next few months and see what transpires. All will be in wet sand and I hope I can post some meaningful results with depth and ID.

Will post the results in this thread, since it has a lot of great info already.

Problem is, this will take awhile since at this point I can only get out on the weekends, and only certain beaches can be used for testing since some are a hike from the car, and when I get there, I have to HUNT instead of test !!!

Quoting you:

"This is dangerous with the Minelabs (unless you are in all-metal).......as the ML's will 'null' over deep 'iron'.........when......in actuallity, it may be a deep gold ring that is ID'ing as 'iron'. Not a good scenario! And the higher the mineralization..............the shallower targets start to ID as 'iron'."

Does this effect also apply to Fisher/Teknetics units outfitted with the DD coil? Several user's have posted that Fish/Tek units mimic this effect. And if both mfg's units do share this propensity, is one mfg's units null effects, worse than the other?

Yes.......this is a law of physics. Esp when applied to modern-day VLF IB motion detectors. As mineralization percentage increases.......non-ferrous targets begin to ID as 'iron'.......and at shallower depths. This applies to all detectors. If iron is Disc'd out........deeper targets (ferrous or non-ferrous) will not be audible. The Minelabs will 'null' over these targets......as they will appear to be iron.

therover61........I encountered a unique experience at Daytona Beach a few years ago........whereby......I could ALMOST Grnd Balance a CZ in the 'normal' mode (non-Salt mode) .......in the wet sand. Under normal circumstances........this is unheard of. Temperatures were quite cold. I was startled.........and have since tried to duplicate this experience...........with absolutely no success.

Tom,

I wonder what was going on that day with the water/sand combo to almost allow you to GB the CZ in normal mode. I always try to GB in normal mode in the wet sand here but never can ( just to take a shot for better gold sensitivity). When I do end up closer to the dry sand I switch over to normal and see if I can and where the cut off point/damp dry line is where I can run in normal.

Just goes to show that the ground matrix is the wild card all the time.

Temperature, salinity and ph levels all affect the conductivity of sea water. Could it be that these factors all lined up on that day to allow the CZ to almost ground balance?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2011 03:41AM by Neugene.

Chris...........that is correct. And the higher the water temperature........the more 'salt' is held-in-solution..........to a (somewhat) linear point of saturation.
And there is a HUGE difference in detection abilities of small/tiny/mirco gold jewelry whilst detecting fresh water .... vs .... salt water.

I've been taking care of my son since my wife went to visit family in Jamaica for the last couple of weeks and just had a chance to read this REALLY INTENSE thread !!.....WOW !!..... Real eye openners here ..... I am wondering how I was able to read my smaller gold jewelry at all with my Minelab machiines .......My partner and I BOTH have pulled smaller gold jewelry from the wet salt beach here in NY while hunting with our E Tracs .....Granted , as Tom mentions , we have probably missed a huge percent of it , but we do get our fair share of gold jewelry and it has been good reading solid gold ....Some 10k and some 14k .... Only down a few inches , but we read it just the same as gold in the foil range .....Most of our gold is found in the foil to pull tabl range ..... Smaller in the foil range and larger in the Pull Tab range .......

I have always known that my AT Pro will read highly conductive targets better at a lower ground blacnce and lower conductive targets better at a higher ground balance ......Since this is true , is it possible to fool the detector by running a manual ground balance to accomodate the target , even if its the wrong ground balance for the detector to run where it is ? ....Example : ....Im in wet salt sand and my AT Pro G.B.'s at around 15 or so ( low GB ) .....This to me indicates that it will do well with Silver coins , yet will not do as well on Gold jewelry ......Can I manually run my GB higher to more accomodate finding more gold or deeper gold since gold hits on a higher GB ? ....... I'm sure that each soil or sand condition has a balancing number that will equal out the chances of the the higher and lower conductors to hit approx with the same strength ..... I know Keith Southern had mentioned at one time that right around 72 on a GB for his AT Pro would be the number whereby low and high conductive targets would hit the same ..... I know that forcing a detector into a G.B. that it is not properly adjusted for will change the ID number and also make the machine run more eratically , but is this possible to do with positive results ? ......Thanks, Jim

GREAT THREAD BTW !!......Good to hear everyones input on this , and Thanks Tom for the knowledge ......Jim

Maybe all the planets lined up that day, too !!

You can 'fool' detectors.......regardless of brand........with Grnd Bal numbers that are more resonant to gold; yet, the detector..........exposed to wet salt conditions........will become very unstable.

In Florida wet salt hunting (and would speculate most all other wet salt beaches)....the norm of the Minelabs performance.....are gold-dead to tiny and micro gold jewelry. This is true with all other detectors.

Tom,
Sorry for the late reply ....Very busy around here ...... So even though a detector runs unstable , when fooling it into hitting gold harder , shouldn't you hear a difference when you DO hit gold , even over the unstable running of the detector ....Of course not wanting to hear all the noise from an unstable detector, but in theory , wouldn't it hit gold harder if it were tuned to do so , even in wet salt conditions ? ....Thanks, Jim

Jim........Conceptually; yes; however, the induced signal strength of the additional 'noise' (due to additional instability) would 'wash out' (or drown out) the original intent of enhanced gold detection..............almost...on a linear scale.

Gotcha .....Thanks for the info .......Sncerely, Jim

Priceless test; priceless data acquired:

TRIGGER: A jewelry store owner/friend had on display, three identical womans wedding bands.......that were exacting in every respect......except for one difference. These rings were:

1. All from same Mfr
2. All were yellow gold (copper alloy)
3. All were size 5
4. All were 2mm thick
5. All were simple 'comfort fit' with no design pattern

The only difference: Karat. Respectively; they were: 10Kt, 14Kt, 18Kt.

IN ADDITION: This jeweler/friend ALSO had two more gold rings...........matching every spec listed above........except the two rings were of white gold (nickel alloy)............with the first ring being 10Kt white gold......and the second ring was 14Kt white gold.

After several days of logistical efforts..........I brought all five rings to the wet salt beach for testing. ((( Exact length dowel rods are a Godsend! ))). Utilizing a hot-running CZ in 'salt' mode...........in a nutshell............here is the end resultant:

1. 18Kt yellow: 6.3"
2. 14Kt yellow: 6.1"
3. 10Kt yellow: 5.6"

4. 14Kt white: 5.1"
5. 10Kt white: 4.3"

This is one of the reasons/justification as to why we find substantially less white gold. A noteworthy/interesting observation at the jewelry store: Looking at all of the inventory of the 10Kt white gold rings that had stones; nearly all of the stones were real. Looking at all of the 10Kt YELLOW gold rings that had stones; most of the stones were fake/costume. Jeweler exclaimed: White gold is for the rich/elite/serious folk. . . . . . and 14Kt white gold is 'maximum professional'........(quoting his words). "It is rare that you will find 14Kt white gold with 'junk' stones"......... another jeweler quote.

A paradox transpired with the yellow gold. The lower the karat rating...........the more copper is utilized/added for the alloy. Copper is highly conductive. . . .gold is not. Contrary to our belief; the reciprocal resultant takes place. You would think that ..... the more (highly conductive) copper that is added to gold (lowering its karat rating)...... the more 'detectable' the target would be. Not so! I would be remiss if I did not state for the record: If ENOUGH copper was added to the gold..........the conductivity/detectability would eventually start to increase again. I surmise/speculate....... a 7Kt gold ring (or lower Kt rating) ....... would then re-gain detectability/conductivity again.......due to the ring becoming nearly pure copper. But................how common is gold with a karat rating of BELOW 9kt (.375) !!!

Also..........for the record: A P.I. unit suffers the same resultant above........in regards to: white gold.....vs.....yellow gold detection.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2012 02:20PM by NASA-Tom.

Question for Tom D. How far will your Aquastar aquire the same targets?
I bet it is much farther!

Tommy C.
(southernexplorer)
Deus - Etrac - GPX 5000

If I may quote Artie Johnson....... " Very Interesting "

That is quite a contrast from air tests to real world salt beach tests.

Tommy,

For the AquaStar-II ...... you can linearly add almost exactly 5" to ALL of the targets (and their corresponding numbers) above. The AquaStar is exceptionally sensitive to low conductors in a wet-salt environ.

Bump.

Here's the data.

First thing that caught my eye was the depth on that yellow gold 10K... then i kept reading. Would the depth difference between the Ks remain the same if the rings were increased in size? How much depth difference do you think a PI here in Fl would have made on that same test over the machine you used? So should i assume that a PI with 15uS wont pick up a .5 gram piece of yellow gold?

Dew

Thanks for sharing Tom..............see ya yardhunter

If the ring sizes (diameter) are increased; yes, detection depth is increased in proportionate/linear fashion...........,,,,,,,,,,, especially if mass is also linearly increased. The Kt ratio (vs depth) will remain nearly exactly the same (ratio).

Most PI units ......... especially when used in our mineral free (only wet salt) Florida beaches......... do not present enough appreciable gain over todays (1990) CZ's/Sov's/Excal's. That being said........... if you have a 10uS PI unit.......... there is a substantial gain in depth over any VLF unit...... especially to gold (and Plat).

As far as a .5 gram yellow gold target; ............. if it's a closed loop ring............. a 15uS delay PI will detect it to about the same depth as a VLF unit. Now.......... if the .5 gram gold item is a open hoop earring.......... or a chain........ or a cross......... or a charm......,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, no joy on any unit ........... except for 10uS (or lower) PI.

So... does the uS make the machine go deeper or more sensitive to targets NOT seen by the VLF? Can a 15uS machine be adjusted to be a 10uS? If it was .... how difficult would it be to use in chest deep salt water or in the surf?

Dew

In general.......... and as a rule-of-thumb.......... when pulse delay is lowered down to 10uS - 8uS......... the detector does not gain any more depth on ring sized objects; rather.......... the unit becomes more sensitive to small/tiny......... and almost 'micro' gold. Still ............ to date............. nothing will detect micro-gold in the wet salt.

Thanks Tom .... i think the light is coming on a tad. I also talked to a person you know well who told me this:

15µS. is more responsive say than 20µS.is toward lower conductive targets. It’s not a sensitivity thing, although it get’s confusing here. PI’s are not more “sensitive” than VLF’s. but they work so much better in tough mineralization than a VLF would.

I asked him about adjusting a PI currently on the market for me to 10uS He said:

No current low powered PI can be adjusted to 10µS. Although setting it to 10µS. isn’t the main problem, finding a coil that will work in that range is. Of course Whites TDI’s & TDI Pro’s can be operated at 10µS...

Well shucks..... i was trying to get there.

Dew

Dew, that is correct.

Dew, I would like to see you with a 10uS or 9uS PI......... even for just one day......... as the 'education' that ensues is stupendous, life-changing, life-lasting. I would also like to see other serious/dedicated salt hunters test one of these units.

My gut-feel tells me that this may come to fruition. Not only are the sales of the high-end ($5000.00 and above) detectors unaffected by the current-status economy............. but, we are on the brink of a new era..... brink-of-discovery. . . . . much being initiated/generated/triggered by the European countries. "Treasure finding" is no longer a 'dream'. It is becoming more of a documented reality. Mfr's of $1000.00 detectors.......... are analyzing/scrutinizing/assessing/looking at the eye-opening paradox of 'WHY' are $5000.00 (and above) detectors being sold enmasse.......... to the point where many of these units are on back-order. There's a lot of proverbial piece-of-the-pie money on the table whereby the $1000.00 detector manufacturers..... are missing out.....................,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.......................... due to the $5000.00-range detector manufacturers are 'capturing' and cornering this market. The $1000.00 Mfr's are still in disbelief. (((Probably not for much longer))).

If I were to share some of the big-time/big-hitters names of whom received one-on-one professional training from me..... this alone would implicate yet another plateau order-of-magnitude of 'seriousness' of this so-called "hobby". The people are there, the market is proven, the money is on the table.

I shall end with this statement: The power of Mans "quest to explore and discover" is burned into genetic code, genetically impossible to infringe; subsequently, cost is only limited by status-factor.

Tom:

What uS is the GPX machines running at? I do know they will find very small nuggets in some pretty bad ground. I have not seen it with my own eyes but there is talk about getting .1gram nuggets shallow but, nevertheless still getting them. I relic hunt with the GPX 4800 and I do find small lead pieces and percussion caps at some pretty deep depths but I do know that the salt water does change things alot.

Tommy C.
(southernexplorer)
Deus - Etrac - GPX 5000

tom, the whites tdi pulse delay is supposed to be adjustable down to 10us. in a post on a seperate thread you stated........"I don't believe White's can "assembly-line" build 12uS (or better) coils. Right now....... this is a one-at-a-time ....... build by hand 'only'..... procedure. Should this issue be mitigated/ameliorated.......... or completely resolved............... it would open up a completely new (unknown) world."

i think you have told me this before but can you clear this up for me and anyone else reading this?
chuck.

Seeker are you asking if the TDI is a 10uS coil? If so yes it can be adjusted down to 10uS. I also believe you are saying apparently they can make a coil capable of 10uS mass produced. Tom i was told you were the lucky owner of a PI tuned to 7/8uS. I guess i could alway get a TDI.... then i could get some idea of what im missing in and out of the water. Much like a Sov.... couldnt they be put in a water proof box? If not .... would it be the salt thats the issue?

Hummm i just went on Kelleyco site to look at the TDI PI..... it wasnt there listed under Whites detectors.... whats up??

Dew

dew , here is toms statement......................"I don't believe White's can "assembly-line" build 12uS (or better) coils. Right now....... this is a one-at-a-time ....... build by hand 'only'..... procedure. Should this issue be mitigated/ameliorated.......... or completely resolved............... it would open up a completely new (unknown) world."

notice that he says............... ......................"I don't believe White's can "assembly-line" build 12uS (or better) coils.

the whites tdi is advertised as a 10us machine!

in a different thread i am saying that they (whites) has the knowledge and ability to build or even come up with a way to mass produce, with tight tolerances coils that will work with a 8us machine if they really wanted to.

dew, i highly recomend that you do some personal training by phone or even better in person(you would be able to see the aquastarII demonstrated) so he can really go over all of this and much much more!!! i have, and it was well worth it!
chuck.