CZ owners - Salt training 101

That last part of Toms statement..... cost is only limited by status factor. Does that mean much like when i was a kid we had coin collections...... now its become a business only those with money enjoy. Are we not only on the verge of new tech., but supply and deman? I remember Tom asking once..... what would you pay? Would you pay $5000 for a machine that hits gold like the nugget detectors.... but in the water with some disc? We are already half way at that price tag. I love and enjoy this hobby on a shoe string budget much like i did collecting coins. BUT.... id also like to see a beach specific machine with the strength of those MLs. There would certainly have to be HUGE changes in tech, weight, and design.

I have to say i was disappointed when i was told no current water PI could be adjusted because the coils werent available. Yet im curious why we have a machine like the TDI that isnt water proof yet?

Dew

A couple things:

I believe the GPX series units are approx 13-15uS pulse delay. I believe the TDI's are almost down to 12uS delay. This is simply my speculation.... due to the fact that I have never O-scoped any of these units for concrete data verification. However, from real-world/wet salt/real gold targets... testing at Cocoa Beach.... the TDI was slightly more sensitive with certain small gold targets over the GPX. But........... still.............. a 14Kt (solid... not hollow) gold cross the height of a U.S. quarter......... and a nickel-sized open hoop gold earring.......... neither detector would detect...... whilst both targets were laying on top of the wet salt sand. Two TDI's were tested...... and one GPX-4500 & two GPX-5000's. The more real-world testing I perform with these PI units......... the better accuracy my guesstimate is for their uS pulse delay performance. Yes..... there's other parameters/things that can also affect performance levels........... but pulse delay is the primary one.

Nuggets vs small jewelry detection depth is quite different. If you have a 0.3 Gm nugget........... and a 0.3 Gm single post earring (made of real 10Kt or 14Kt gold).......... you may be able to detect the nugget at much greater distances vs the gold earring........... with the possibility (probability) of not even being able to detect the single post earring.

Tom.... stop that, you keep putting flys in my soup. You are NOT making this easy for me. So obviously its not the salt setting thats as much an issue with these targets. I was told the TDI is pretty stable in shall salt water. How about waterproofing a TDI and having Mr. Bill tune it up a bit? There has to be an advantage over an Xcal or other PIs at that point here in Fl. Looks like I HAVE A DREAM..... until someone sees beach hunting as an nitch where the big bucks can be had as profitable to produce us THAT machine. My fear is that the CTX may have set a standard of thinking...... pay and get a single machine that will do it all. If the companies slim line like ML did this could hurt some advancement IMO. I guess hunting in PP with an Xcal and digging those deep iron signal NOT seen in disc until that first scoop is remove could be as good as it gets here in Fl unless you throw in the Aqua Sound and dont hit black sand.

You have given me food for thought..... could be at that brick wall at this point. If a PI isnt that much more sensitive than a VLF and not much deeper here in Fl.... ouch.

Dew



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2012 09:06PM by dewcon4414.

The TDI is 'slightly' deeper and 'slightly' more sensitive on smaller gold items ...... over the Excal/Sov. Yet, not quite enough to quantify/justify its purchase........... unless you have no detector and are just starting in the market.

A few comments...

TDI runs as low as 10us. Mass-producing 10us coils is not too difficult. Mass-producing 8us (or even 6us) coils is not difficult, either, but requires a change in the coil design. One reason TDI is limited to 10us is because a design goal was compatibility with ML/Coiltek coils.

Reducing the sample delay increases target response pretty much for ALL targets. It's most noticeable for small gold but everything benefits. Ground response increases as well, and operation in wet salt becomes impossible. For the same reason a salt-mode VLF can't detect small gold, a PI that can ignore wet salt also can't detect small gold. Same physics.

It's no secret that White's is working on a waterproof TDI. Actually, it's my personal project. All-new case, all-new circuit. Goal is 6us, so it might not run Coiltek coils.

- Carl

Carl,

Glad to hear this.......... and that you/White's are stepping up to the proverbial plate where there are many pieces of the pie on the table. The money is there.... along with the demand.

Will there be a low-power setting available whilst invoking 6uS? (Or encroaching 6uS). As you are most probably aware....... this may more-so allow for effective use/operation in wet salt environ.

carl,
thank you for responding here!!!!!!! the design of your new waterproof tdi hopefully will allow a pulse delay of 7 or 8us with coils that are 7-8us capable/tuned. if this detector has the same performance on tiny gold objects that is equal to or better than the aquastar II on wetsalt beaches and in the surf you will have a gamechanging, sales leading, hard to keep up with demand machine. if you can go as low as 6us with a a lowpower setting as tom mentioned and still get tiny gold that other machines cant even dream of that would of course be even better.

if the biggest stumbling block to producing a 7-8us capable tdi with 7-8us capable coils has been compatible with ml/coiltek coils, i would not be too worried about having multiple coils available for the waterproof 7-8us capable tdi.

maybe two versions of the tdi.......one geared toward relics and land hunters which require more coil options and one geared toward the beach / saltwaterhunter (the new highly popular goldrush) with maybe just an 8 and 10 inch coil available? if only one is possible i would prefer a 10". by the way.... i don't care if i ever find another coin!! coins are interruptions/annoyances in my search for gold

as a beach gold hunter, just give me an adjustable pulse delay to 7-8us , a coil capable of getting the most out of this setting in a saltwater enviroment, no bells or whistles necessary and i will be a happy hunter! i live across the street from the beach and hunt almost daily. i am now exited and very encouraged by your response to this thread!!!!!!

ps.......im sure tom would be very excited to offer up any help he could in the design of your new waterproof tdi.
thanks,
chuck.(seeker41)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2012 04:55AM by seeker41.

Now..... is this a near future project.... or are we looking a year down the road? Im like a kid with money burning a hole in my pocket. Id love to start seeing some vedios or something to get us hyped up on this machine.... because its JUST what im looking for. I just about dropped a dime on a used one Mr Bill was going to tune for me. Dont make me hold my breath to long without a tid bit now and again until its out.

You hit the nail on the head Chuck.... just give us a no bells water machine capible of operating on the beach and in salt water at as low a uS as possible. I dont mind playing with the dials a bit out there for performance and results. I to hit the beach daily here in the Gulf. That thing may shine here. Doesnt the TDI give a hi-lo sort of tone like the Finny..... nice to have a little disc like that. Also.... it sounds like its going to have limits on the beach with salt water. How much limit in the water? Id still rather have it than need it. Id sure like Whites to introduce it with a price tag that makes ML blink twice.

I made a comment the other day that i noticed Kelleyco no longer had the TDI for sale. That may be an indicator we get a new one sooner than later.

AGAIN.... this is why i enjoy this forum.... we get some great information straight from the horses mouth.

Dew



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2012 04:00PM by dewcon4414.

As one of the people who originally backed the concept of the TDI being Minelab coil compatible I can say in retrospect it has not proven to be of critical importance. There are indeed people using many of the aftermarket coils available so it has not been a bad thing. But in my own personal use of the TDI I have found I prefer the White's OEM coils. Getting dependable performance from the Minelab compatible coils is a crapshoot at best, with many not working at lower delay settings as it is. I would certainly vote for losing coil compatibility if that was the price for better performance.

I was hoping for the underwater TDI for Christmas but my plans for a flight to warmer climes fell through. Six below here in Anchorage right now so I guess I can wait awhile longer for Carl to get it right. The one hole in my detecting tool box right box is a submersible PI and I have been holding out for a TDI for quite some time now.

If you read this Carl my one bit of advice is make sure the TDI does not lose its immunity to electrical interference in the process of redesign. The TDI is more EMI resistant thang he Infinium and even many of the newer VLF designs and that is a big advantage in the TDI in urban areas.

I am the odd guy out here as beach use is not my only use for the TDI. I want something capable of working in rivers in California and Alaska for nugget detecting. For that the ground balance capability of the TDI is critical. I plan on dredging in big nugget country in Alaska all summer, and a waterproof detector to check the edges and bottom of the hole as we go would be a real asset in the operation.

Steve Herschbach
DetectorProspector.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2012 08:40PM by Steve Herschbach.

Steve.... you are right, much like the CTX it will have multi uses. I know Jimmy Sierra has always been the push for excellent gold detectors. It may have limited use for us beach hunters.... but it will have a place. Just look at Toms test results on that size 5 ring for white gold..... we surely could improve that depth wise.

Dew

Misc comments again...

Kellyco has never sold the TDI.

All PI's react strongly to wet salt below 10us. Salt looks exactly like a low conductive target regardless of PI or VLF, you can't get rid of salt and still keep same conductive jewelry.

Reducing TX power to reduce salt response also reduces target response. If you reduce it enough to get rid of salt you likely eliminate any chance of detecting sub-10us targets, and also severely reduce larger targets. I would argue to turn up the delay to 10us to get rid of salt, at least you will still hit larger targets. Regardless, a water case limits the number of knobs available, and a TX power control is not on the list.

carl,
why is 6us the goal/target for you? i know that anything much lower than 8us and the salt just becomes one big target that overwhelms any gold targets that may be there, correct? i also know that 8us has been done and is the reason along with the 8us capable coil for the aquastar II's sensitivity and abillity to detect tiny low conductor/gold items that no other machine can detect and at much greater depths. that kind of performance on the wetsalt beach and in the water is what im looking for and hoping for.

if this type of machine is not built/brought back into the market i am forced to hunt for an old aquastar II or one of its variations. whatever you can reveal or shed some light on regarding what the new waterproof tdi might be capable of(design intent/goals) would be apreciated by us beach gold hunters.
chuck.

Carl...... I tested a TDI at KellyCo about 2 ~ 3 years ago. Wonder why they had one.

Chuck....... The TDI was never (and probably never will be) designed "exclusively" for wet salt beaches. So,,,,, 6uS would be for true prospecting applications.

"Chuck....... The TDI was never (and probably never will be) designed "exclusively" for wet salt beaches. So,,,,, 6uS would be for true prospecting applications".

thats fine! if it can be adjusted down to 6us it can be used at 8us(on the wetsand).
chuck.

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Carl...... I tested a TDI at KellyCo about 2 ~ 3
> years ago. Wonder why they had one.

Possibly a trade-in... TDI is not part of their agreement.

Thanks Carl. This would explain 'why' the TDI was exceptionally 'short-lived' at KellyCo......... as I never asked Stu or John where/why it was not carried.

In any regard, Carl, I'm glad that you are thinking outside of the proverbial box........ moreso in the real world. There is imminent justification for this. . . . on multiple fronts.

My bad, thou i was reading up on it somewhere. Just because me and Bill was talking about it being a 10uS, something in the direction i was going. I agree Tom id sure like to see something on the edge. I know it has to make money and coil development isnt cheap, but something not for everyone.... kind of what a TDI is. Oh.... while you are at it lets keep that price reasonable..... dont want to have to give up the first born, im starting to like him lol.

Dew

carl, this new unit is a waterproof unit, is it your design goal to have the unit work on a wetsalt beach and in the saltwater with the ability to detect tiny gold jewelry while running a pulse delay of 8us? thanks for putting up with my questions.
chuck.

I believe...... with the (moderate) success of the TDI..... specifically on the beaches....... "some" of the new intent/mindset...... will somewhat/moreso target the wet salt beach conditions.

Of noteworthy interest: I (as of recently) have confirmation that two metal detector Mfr's are giving some very serious consideration into a greatly improved technology wet salt beach unit. The 'realization' that this specific market has minimal competition (only CZ's and Excal's)..... makes it quite alluring. And still......... my only true concern is......... if the R.O.I. numbers will be skewed in the wrong direction.......... due to misconception and blind-spot(s) analysis.

kind of a forgotten and neglected market for quite some time now! i think that makes three mfrs and at least one very talented and knowledgeable individual that may be stepping up to the plate! exciting!!!
chuck.

here is an example of just how many gold chains are out there and not being found! one detectorists experiance.....................

"Ok, I have a CZ-21 and hunt fresh water in Michigan. I have found 5 gold chains. One the CZ picked up becasue of the cross on it, and another a pendant. The other three were found by fanning for another target. One of the chains was 18 grams of 18K. Saw the end flapping around looking for a penny. Pulled it out of the sand and also found the penny. Another chain was in a pile off the side of a dock. Again fanning for a coin. Same with the last one."

.......................three of the 5 chains he has found were accidental finds, just laying there and not the target he was actually trying to recover!!!! how many are just laying around undetected/undetectable by our machines
cz20/21, excal, average pi etc:

chuck.

((( I've had the same experience... to include with AquaStar )))

Ok.... lets say we get a TDI that will operate at 10uS or lower in the salt water. Ive been told it wont give us more depth.... BUT will make it more RESPONSIVE to lower conductive gold targets. With this in mind..... and if the TDI can swap coils, what would the affect of say a size 8 coil be? Could you run a lower uS.... like more sensitivity? Would the smaller coil make it even more sensitive to smaller targets or white gold.

Dew

In regard to coil size....... PI's have a bit of a different resultant as compared to VLF units. Unlike a VLF unit........ a PI may not lose as much 'sensitivity' to (say) small gold targets whilst increasing coil size (within reason). Thus, a smaller coil installed on a PI unit...... may not authorize a lower (uS) pulse delay..... as per what you would expect.
Right now........... using VLF or PI............ we are trying to find gold in a wet salt environment. This is to say: We are looking at the "conductivity" element of gold ........... (((so as to detect it)))............. in a wet salt "conductivity" environment. We are trying to detect "conductivity" in a "conductivity" environment.................... and........................ both "conductivity" are about the same; hence........... most lost gold on the beaches will never be found............ unless.......... some bright engineer(s) can figure out how to detect conductive gold ...in a non-conductive detection fashion.

(Problem - Solution. I have stated the 'Problem')

A few years ago............ I met a German woman on the beach........ of whom was curious as to 'what' I was doing. I explained/demonstrated the metal detector to her. She was impressed. She adorned 4 necklaces (so I thought). I asked her if I could test one of her necklaces. This confused her. As she unrapped the 'single necklace' off of her neck................. I soon realized why she was confused...........as the 'necklace' was not 4 necklaces........... rather......... multiple loops of 'one' necklace. It was looped over her neck....... 4 times (looking like 4 separate necklaces)............ and measured 84" in total/continuous length............ with a weight of 103 grams (about 3-1/3 Ounces). Aprox pencil-lead diameter. My detector would not detect it on the surface of the wet salt beach........ even if it was 'balled up'.

Things that make you go: Hmmmmmm.
So.......... are we missing anything on the beaches?

So with a PI the coil size is for separation or to cover more ground? In a salt water situation then its the uS that determines RESPONSE to targets. Would a 15uS machine be more responsive than a 24uS to a gold ring at 7 inches? If its not depth..... then what is response.... scratchy or occasional signal? Both detectors would see the ring, but one might have poor response or none.

Dew

In general.......... whilst wet salt hunting........ a larger coil is for more ground coverage....... as (most of the time)..... targets are few and far in-between.

In general......... the higher (numerically) the pulse delay........ the more responsive the unit is to large high-conductive targets...... but only to a point. Then......... performance drops off.

In general........ the faster the uS pulse delay....... the more responsive to gold (low conductors)...... and at greater depths.

One day the solution will be discovered if enough time and resources (not necessarily monetary) are applied.


“The intellect has little to do on the road to discovery. There comes a leap in consciousness, call it Intuition or what you will, the solution comes to you and you don't know how or why.”


Albert Einstein

NASA Tom

I have a question regarding this test you have going here on the forum,

you state that the cz20/21 is "locked" in salt mode and that when a machine is in the salt mode - it has an effect on picking up on certain targets at certain depths (or lack there-of). I have always known that the cz20/21 will pass right over a small/er gold chain or ear-ring, etc.w/o even seeing it and I have accepted that fact long ago,

but

I didn't know the cz20/21's are "locked" in salt mode. I live in Michigan and use an upgraded cz20 (conversion to a 21)

so

being that it is locked in salt mode - do you feel I'm losing out on depth and targets (not only gold) here in typical non salt soil with very little iron/mineral content??

And would I be better off using another machine (be it fisher or whoever) so that I gain back more depth and smaller targets?

Please advise if you would.

thank you,

Michigan Relic Hunter

On coins........ there is virtually no loss in depth/performance whilst in 'salt' mode. But.......... on gold jewelry.......... there is quite a bit of depth/performance loss..... regardless of brand. . . . especially on women's jewelry & rings .......... due to their smaller mass/size. On a man's large gold signet/class ring.... you may not see much of a difference in depth performance ...when you compare 'salt' mode with 'normal' (non-salt) mode. But........ any gold item that is smaller....... (which is nearly everything)......... there is loss in detection depth. And......... since you are not hunting wet salt beaches for coins....... the focus does indeed need to be placed on specifically "gold". One of the best eye-opener tests is to compare 'salt' mode .. vs .. 'non-salt' mode........ is with a gold cross/crucifix.

IF you are a inland fresh water hunter...looking for gold............. I would HIGHLY recommend a unit that is not locked in 'salt' mode. The Garrett AT-Pro (due to it's 10-depth waterproof feature)..... would be a good start/choice. The newer F75 SE's (with boost process) are another notch better in performance for small gold; yet, are not waterproof..... and not rainproof.

Remember.......... you're after the gold........... and not the clad.

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> On coins........ there is virtually no loss in
> depth/performance whilst in 'salt' mode.
> But.......... on gold jewelry.......... there is
> quite a bit of depth/performance loss.....
> regardless of brand. . . . especially on women's
> jewelry & rings .......... due to their smaller
> mass/size. On a man's large gold signet/class
> ring.... you may not see much of a difference in
> depth performance ...when you compare 'salt' mode
> with 'normal' (non-salt) mode. But........ any
> gold item that is smaller....... (which is nearly
> everything)......... there is loss in detection
> depth. And......... since you are not hunting wet
> salt beaches for coins....... the focus does
> indeed need to be placed on specifically "gold".
> One of the best eye-opener tests is to compare
> 'salt' mode .. vs .. 'non-salt' mode........
> is with a gold cross/crucifix.
>
> IF you are a inland fresh water hunter...looking
> for gold............. I would HIGHLY recommend a
> unit that is not locked in 'salt' mode. The
> Garrett AT-Pro (due to it's 10-depth waterproof
> feature)..... would be a good start/choice. The
> newer F75 SE's (with boost process) are another
> notch better in performance for small gold; yet,
> are not waterproof..... and not rainproof.
>
> Remember.......... you're after the
> gold........... and not the clad.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for putting it into perspective NASA-Tom

I knew I was losing out on small/er gold over the years while using the CZ20/21 but I just thought it was a common thing among detectors in general (or at least on certain makes/models outside of actual Gold detectors).

Fortunately I already own an AT Pro that I purchased when they were released and I have been using it when beach hunting specifically because it picks up on small gold & other items the cz doesn't even get a blip on!

The main reason I asked the question is (not only for an understanding of if the machine is losing out on depth on more than just gold) but also so that I could make the choice on whether or not to sell it and purchase something a little more ideal for hunting relics & such that I may have been losing out on due to the "salt mode" issue.

I really like the cz as it is a tank in the field and I have found many good finds over the yrs with it. I've dropped it a 100 times, pushed thru brush with it, slung it into the truck 500 times, banged into trees with it, tripped and fell on it 2 or 3 times, had it in the mud, sand, muck etc. and it just keeps on going! If I tried that with this tonka toy AT I know it would break in a heartbeat!

Don't get me wrong though - I do like the AT too - it amazes me with the tiny things it finds at deep depths - I found a BB sized gold ear ring (like a starter ear ring) at approx. 6 inches deep - I couldn't believe it! I've also found several wire type pieces of gold jewelry that the cz doesn't even blip on. And the depth has truly amazed me with the AT too - I found a Presidential $1 coin on the Lake Michigan beach front in the sand at at least 15 inches deep and those things are barely a bit bigger than a quarter!

HH all and I hope Toms answer to my question has helped some of you the same as it has me!

MRH